Gotway Tesla just beeps and won't move after repairs

[mrelwood]

 

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I've yet to hear from someone repairing them.

I just want to brag that I replaced the hall sensors and all motor wiring on my MSX. Now you have! 😜

 

1 hour ago, mick said:

The top speed is 37.

@mick, there are a few aspects of how EUCs work that you haven’t yet learned. This is a concern because it sounds like you are one top speed attempt short of crashing at approximately 32mph.

If you ignore the beeps and try to reach 37mph on your Tesla, at some point the wheel will suddenly just turn off. It will not warn you in any other way than the beeps that you have ignored already.

When the wheel can no longer go faster, it can no longer balance and turns off. Best case scenario is it would hurt a lot, for a long time.

Please read a bit on what Gotway top speed or cutoff speed means, and you’ll learn why no rider can reach it.

I’d start from the thread called something like ”EUC - Understanding the mechanics”.

Edited September 25, 2019 by mrelwood

[mick]

17 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

I just want to brag that I replaced the hall sensors and all motor wiring on my MSX. Now you have! 😜

 

@mick, there are a few aspects of how EUCs work that you haven’t yet learned. This is a concern because it sounds like you are one top speed attempt short of crashing at approximately 32mph.

If you ignore the beeps and try to reach 37mph on your Tesla, at some point the wheel will suddenly just turn off. It will not warn you in any other way than the beeps that you have ignored already.

When the wheel can no longer go faster, it can no longer balance and turns off. Best case scenario is it would hurt a lot, for a long time.

Please read a bit on what Gotway top speed or cutoff speed means, and you’ll learn why no rider can reach it.

I’d start from the thread called something like ”EUC - Understanding the mechanics”.

You don't need to lecture me like I don't know anything about EUC's. I am an experienced rider who can ride on my left leg or right leg alone. I have ridden both streets and challenging offroad trails. I jump off curbs, go down stairs, jump over speed bumps. I understand about the speed beeps, tilt back, etc. and have ridden this wheel nearly every day for over a year. I'm not a child. Thank you for the suggestions that you have provided that were helpful. But don't insult my experience and both of our intelligence by making assumptions about me when you really don't know anything about me. I have also seen multiple videos of people going 37 mph on a Gotway Tesla, including some crashes. You can pick your speeds. I can and will pick mine.

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, mick said:

You don't need to lecture me like I don't know anything about EUC's. I am an experienced rider who can ride on my left leg or right leg alone. I have ridden both streets and challenging offroad trails. I jump off curbs, go down stairs, jump over speed bumps. I understand about the speed beeps, tilt back, etc. and have ridden this wheel nearly every day for over a year. I'm not a child. Thank you for the suggestions that you have provided that were helpful. But don't insult my experience and both of our intelligence by making assumptions about me when you really don't know anything about me.

That was not @mrelwoods intention. I don't know @mrelwood's riding experience - but i can say quite for sure that you are a much more experienced and better rider than me. But there is still the point of electronic knowledge that could differentiate us.

1 hour ago, mick said:

I have also seen multiple videos of people going 37 mph on a Gotway Tesla, including some crashes. You can pick your speeds. I can and will pick mine.

Yes. One can get reach incredible high speeds beyond the 3rd speed alarm. But the important thing is that the possible torque the wheel can provide goes down proportional to the speed. So there is a speed, depending on enviromental issues like road flatness, incline, any "unnecessary" body part movement of the rider, wind gusts, etc at which the wheel cannot balance one anymore, because it has no power reserves.

An experienced rider can still "feel" the wheel getting weak, if one accelerates slowly and carefully up to the limit - but if any "minimal" extra burden happens the overlean/faceplant at 37 mph just happened. If one repeats these accidents/riding on the limit events often enough in controlled enviroments one for sure can learn to manage such situations much better.

But in "real life" enviroments with (even small) bumps/cracks in the road, wind gusts,... one will sooner or later have a bad accident by the overlean if one tries to reach the limit. If one tries the limit, as already often written here, its important to be sure that no (possible/unpredictable) obstacles are in front of one...

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

  37 mph hey?  Make sure to get some video!  It would be even more impressive if you could piggyback someone while riding a bumpy uphill against a strong headwind with 18 psi in the tire and at 50% battery charge.    Torque smorque.  Ah it's all gobbledygook if you ask me.  Just ask this guy...

 

 

 

Am I a bad man?    

Edited September 25, 2019 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Mono]

2 hours ago, mick said:

You don't need to lecture me like I don't know anything about EUC's.

OK, @mrelwood  wrote "there are a few aspects of how EUCs work that you haven’t yet learned" and probably he should have better written "there may be a few aspects of how EUCs work that you haven’t yet studied". In any case, he was far from assuming you don't know anything about EUCs. More importantly, consider the incentives: he wrote this because we do not want to get anyone hurt! 

One of the main reasons why people get hurt on an EUC is that they do not know the quite unnatural and fragile limits of self-balancing vehicles powered by an electric motor (as explained by @mrelwood and @Chriull). This is of great concern (to me and I assume to many of us). Exploring the maximal speed on an EUC is very different from exploring the maximal speed with a car or a motorcycle. It's much more like exploring the maximal climb angle of an airplane: going a little above that angle leads to a stall and then to an uncontrolled (and often uncontrollable) fall.

[Chriull]

57 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

  37 mph hey?  Make sure to get some video!  It

And @mick please log your rides with wheellog! I have no overlean logs of a tesla till now!  *scnr"

Ps.: I should make a collection of the overlean limits i collected till now. Thanks too @palachzzz - your collection of "crazy" logs and knowledge/experience of wheel limits is incredible and should be shared ! As prooved again shortly ago for the Z10 - never would have thought that a firmware current limit causes overleans...

@Seba - you have a huge collection of wheellog data. Don't know if you have them associated with specific models?

If you want and feel comfortable to do anomiyzed "big data" wheel limits analysis? It's not necessary to have only "real high speed" overleans - stumbling while trying to go up curbs gives great data, too. Or just analysys of enough logs with _no overlean_ specify the safe operating area, too!

If you and i find some time inbetween this could be a great contribution to the EUC community (over time)! By now wheellog's fixed current alarm is "just" an alarm to prevent GW riders from molten wires/blown mosfets. With @palachzzz's latest input it's a safety feature to warn before reaching the reachable 110A current limit of the Z10 (although bluetooth communication seems to be very unreliable with the Z10 in burden situations - but this could be just a specific mobile phone/wheel problem?).

With sound data beside this fixed current EUC saving alarm a speed dependend current alarm ( easy linear dependence) could be (easily?) implemeted to wheellog - as a safety measure against overleans.

Slowly. Over time. As we can manage it. If you want and we'll see that it could really work out and makes sense.

Edit: As i have giving up hoping that the manudacturers implement in firmware a really usefull overlean warning/tiltback as they have in firmware the sampling rates available to make it "perfect".

Edited September 25, 2019 by Chriull

[Mono]

Ambitious, given that the limit speed depends on

• battery charge status
• incline
• headwinds
• size (and weight) of the rider
• temperature (I believe)
• firmware version, possibly

it's quite some space to fill.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

We're not children.  No need to scold us and endlessly lecture us about overleans and all that sciency bah bah bah techno-talk stuff trying to prove your smartnicity over us.  If it says it can go 37 mph, we have to test that fact.  No, we MUST test that fact.  Who cares if it's just some number given to us from a few Chinese engineering people from a distant and mysterious land.  I'm sure they have tested it thoroughly through all sorts of case studies, fancy calculations, and experimentalization to arrive at that speed value.  I'd bet your life on it.  I think it's doable.  Probably.  And if not, hey, what do we have to lose?  Skin grows back.  Body pads can be replaced.  Titanium plates and screws can fix shoulders back together.  Pishaw.  As the famous Sir Edgar P. Gellulicutio once said, "What is life without risk?" 

Besides, how else can we get bragging rights to impress the ladies?    Don't forget the video!  Veedee-O!  Got the perfect background music for it...

Edited September 25, 2019 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Chriull]

42 minutes ago, Mono said:

Ambitious, given that the limit speed depends on

• battery charge status

Yes. Battery voltage is another (easy linear) dependeny i did not mention. (Sorry @seba )

Quote

• incline
• headwinds
• size (and weight) of the rider

That's alltogether covered by the current (==torque). And of course wheellog cannot predict the "unknown" future - it cannot warn a (heavy) rider that he will overlean at the next incline if he does not decrease the speed.

The normal airdrag/headwind is also "included" by the reported current - wind gusts of course not.

Quote

• temperature (I believe)

Ambient temperature should not really count (too) much. But copper has a not to be ignored positive temperature coefficient - so the coils ohmic resistance is considerable different between relaxed/"crazy"/high performance drivers and change accordingly the torque limit...

Don't really have the numbers ready - could afair some  20-xx% between 20°C to 80°C and by this be "implemented" in the safety margin?! Or in some distant future be regarded by some "integration of burden over time"?

Or one takes the worst case from the "crazy"/high performance riders and by this the relaxed drivers gain some safety margin?!

Quote

• firmware version, possibly

Pfff....

I'd assume that's not really associatable with @Seba's wheelog and could impose some real probs...

GW could/does change their firmware/hardware over time without real announcement.

KS just the firmware?!

Without hatdware change the main overlean characteristcs should not really change (too much)

 

Quote

it's quite some space to fill.

Imo the most important points are covert.

Just, as you link to the the e-bike similuation site with some further complexity showed that the torque over speed limit is no real linear dependency future possibilties for improvements will be countless.

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, mick said:

You don't need to lecture me like I don't know anything about EUC's.

That absolutely wasn't my intention. Based solely on what you wrote earlier, "The top speed is 37. I will eventually get to that speed." it seemed quite safe to assume that you are not aware what the Gotway top speed depends on, and what happens if one tries to reach it.

It's all the same to me if you have ridden up and down a tree trunk with just one finger on the wheel for ten years. It doesn't improve your knowledge about electronics or hub motor limits.

It seemed that you weren't aware. Now you are. That was my only intention. I'm sorry if it came out as condescending.

[Seba]

7 hours ago, Chriull said:

@Seba - you have a huge collection of wheellog data. Don't know if you have them associated with specific models?

If you want and feel comfortable to do anomiyzed "big data" wheel limits analysis? It's not necessary to have only "real high speed" overleans - stumbling while trying to go up curbs gives great data, too. Or just analysys of enough logs with _no overlean_ specify the safe operating area, too!

If you and i find some time inbetween this could be a great contribution to the EUC community (over time)! By now wheellog's fixed current alarm is "just" an alarm to prevent GW riders from molten wires/blown mosfets. With @palachzzz's latest input it's a safety feature to warn before reaching the reachable 110A current limit of the Z10 (although bluetooth communication seems to be very unreliable with the Z10 in burden situations - but this could be just a specific mobile phone/wheel problem?).

Yes, I was considering to make some research and analysis for the whole community using anonymized data from euc.world database. King Song, Inmotion and Ninebot wheels send model/serial data so it can be used to determine EUC make and model more precisely. Unfortunately it's not the case with Gotway  Probably I will have to add possibility to define by user which wheel model is used. Another limitation is that wheel telemetry data is sent with several seconds period. CSV logs are definitely more useful here.

Anyway, euc.world database has been found useful to determine that some "speed records" presented in WheelLog screenshots on FB was ekhm... unplausible  And I can say that highest speed ever recorded (to date) in euc.world that is also confirmed by GPS data is:

• 64.9 kph (40.3 mph) on unknown 100V Gotway EUC
• 61.2 kph (38 mph) on unknown 84V EUC
• 57.5 kph (35.7 mph) on unknown 67V Gotway EUC

Notes:

1. These are only data from euc.world database. Having more than 230 active users and over 4.2 millions of data samples doesn't mean that it's representative for the whole community. Most people use Google Play WheelLog instead of euc.world. Many euc.world users doesn't use  online logging to euc.world.
2. Because of limitations of Gotway communication protocol, we can't be sure if 67V Gotway wheel was really 67V. It could be that the user misconfigured his wheel in WheelLog settings.
3. These speeds are top, peak, isolated, momentary - choose any or all. They may be offset, recorded under no load  (eg. during jumping off curb etc.) or while tilting back. By "confirmed by GPS" I mean that GPS speed at the moment was no less than 80% of wheel speed. So it's possible that real speed was lower than reported by wheel. I fetched data using simple SQL query. To be more reliable, some kind of statistical analysis should be applied.

[Hansolo]

It confirms the speeds too high that I have from time to time by the voice announcements of WheelLog (Gotway MSX 84V and MS3 84V)

Edited September 26, 2019 by Hansolo

[Chriull]

9 hours ago, Mono said:

it's quite some space to fill.

 

9 hours ago, Chriull said:

Imo the most important points are covert.

 

Or not..  Measurements from the wheels are maybe unprecise between the same models, sometimes they have different tires (different cirumference -> different speed), different battery "degratation" states (internal cell resistance is one main factor of the limit)

9 hours ago, Chriull said:

Imo the most important points are covert.

 

... ähm and easy is a bit relative. The limit depends on the no load battery voltage (more or less "real" charge) - so the voltage sag has to be computed and added again to the voltage...

To make the graph "understandable" i scaled the current/speed tuples with this no load battery voltage, so the shifting limit is one line in the graph... Afair i unnecessarily scaled current and speed - one should be enough....

ps.: could be that there happens some thread hijacking ... ... Maybe about time to split this topic of lateron...

[palachzzz]

8 hours ago, Seba said:

• 64.9 kph (40.3 mph) on unknown 100V Gotway EUC
• 61.2 kph (38 mph) on unknown 84V EUC
• 57.5 kph (35.7 mph) on unknown 67V Gotway EUC

Most probably it was 84v instead of 67v, because the user set incorrect voltage option.

I have following numbers (from Russian Telegram community, confirmed by logs or screenshots, sorry I can't provide it right now, need to seek in history):
MSX84 - 62.6 km/h (screenshot) - the fastest speed without overlean. 63km/h - overlean (I think I already have sent this log to @Chriull)
MSX100 - 72km/h -without overlean (video)
Nikola100v - 66km/h - almost overlean (video ), 62km/h overlean at almost empty battery (video)
Monster100v - 72km/h - without overlean (video)
Tesla84 - 56km/h without overlean (screenshot), I did 53 km/h by myself.
Ninebot Z10 - overlean between 62-64 km/h (video, iphone - no logs, only fixed max speed - 64km/h, 62km/h was successful previous day).
Ninebot Z6 - overlean around 46 km/h at half battery

So.. Using this data, I derived a very simple overlean formula: Overlean speed ≈ rotation speed * 0.8,
MSX84: 78*0.8 = 62.4 
MSX100: 93*0.8 = 74.4
Nikola100v: 83*0.8 = 66.4
Monster100v: 91 * 0.8 = 72.8
Tesla84v: 69 * 0.8 = 55.2
Ninebot Z10: 81*0.8 = 64.8
Ninebot Z6: 61*0.8 = 48.8
Surely it does not take into account the load, slope, and is valid only for an almost fully charged wheel. Therefore, it is a very rough estimate, but it allows you to roughly understand the capabilities of each wheel, and when I see numbers more than this - it makes me pretty sceptic that the data is relevant (rotation, app bug, etc)

Edited September 26, 2019 by palachzzz