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Paul2579

Did tiltback throw me to the ground? 18XL

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So I was trying to get a feel for quick acceleration and deceleration.  New wheel.  Newbie rider.  I hadn't previously heard any beeps, then all the sudden I heard 3 or 4 in quick succession, and then the wheel seemed to get floaty under me.  The weird part was that when I started to lean back to brake I felt like the motor wasn't going to catch me at all.  So rather than continue to roll myself backwards, I stepped off, which resulted in me quickly sitting my butt on the ground anyway.  

As best I can tell I tripped the 18XL default threshold for tiltback.  Which I think is set at only 12.5 miles initially.  After that, I'm guessing my surprise caused me to misread my lean angle in relation to the wheel and I never really tilted back far enough to engage the brake, and then panicked and jumped ship. 

I'm going to set the titlback threshold even lower next time and get a feel for how the wheel reacts at speeds that aren't going to dump me on the ground. 

Does anyone have any better thoughts?  

Also, I'm having trouble following the threads on proper settings of alarms for the 18L/XL. If anyone cares to re-summarize how the speed limiting works on the 18XL, I'd be very interested in reading more.  

Thanks!

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I'd recommend setting the tiltback trigger to ludicrously low, like 3.5 mph, and hit it a few dozen times, because under no circumstances do you want to be unfamiliar with the wheel's tiltback behavior at ~30 mph.

Unfortunately you might have a hard time hearing beeps at 30 mph and if you wear a closed helmet, especially around urban traffic. You can download WheelLog so your phone buzzes you at a certain speed and wattage, but that's unreliable if you drop Bluetooth; therefore tiltback may be your only reliable speed warning.

However, all this only applies to power given at high speeds. Figuring out how much power you actually have for acceleration and deceleration (same thing) is somewhat estimated until your wheel dumps you. Unfortunately there is no "open the throttle all the way until she can't go faster". Even the engine sound is completely drama free regardless at what power setting you have the wheel at. I think wheels really should have an artificial skip noise, perhaps a pop and crackle sound along with a few mini cutouts, in order to show you are nearing the motor and the battery limit.

I will say that if you are doing hard acceleration then don't be afraid to use a lot of body English; I mean use as much as you would being on a slack line. The purpose of these theatrics is to keep your center of gravity very low and close to the wheel so if you need to bail then can do so with your feet mostly under you.

This guy will have a hard time bailing if the wheel slips.

https://youtu.be/Cm1HDodg1aE

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I don’t know is this i technically correct, but from what I can feel from riding both my V8 and 18XL there’s two levels of tiltback. When I reach the speed that the tiltback is set to I notice that the pedals stiffens and if I push past that I get tiltback.

I’m always aware of what speed the tiltback is set to, my current speed and battery status. Since low battery usually means tiltback at lower speeds. To just lean forward as much as possible and totally rely on tiltback will probably throw you off the wheel just as you explained.

It’s better to set warnings to get your attension to lower your speed and set as goal to never reach speed that would give you tiltback. And while running on low battery, lower your speed and don’t ride agressivly

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23 hours ago, Paul2579 said:

So I was trying to get a feel for quick acceleration and deceleration.  New wheel.  Newbie rider.  I hadn't previously heard any beeps, then all the sudden I heard 3 or 4 in quick succession, and then the wheel seemed to get floaty under me.  The weird part was that when I started to lean back to brake I felt like the motor wasn't going to catch me at all.  So rather than continue to roll myself backwards, I stepped off, which resulted in me quickly sitting my butt on the ground anyway.  

As best I can tell I tripped the 18XL default threshold for tiltback.  Which I think is set at only 12.5 miles initially.  After that, I'm guessing my surprise caused me to misread my lean angle in relation to the wheel and I never really tilted back far enough to engage the brake, and then panicked and jumped ship. 

I'm going to set the titlback threshold even lower next time and get a feel for how the wheel reacts at speeds that aren't going to dump me on the ground. 

Does anyone have any better thoughts?  

Also, I'm having trouble following the threads on proper settings of alarms for the 18L/XL. If anyone cares to re-summarize how the speed limiting works on the 18XL, I'd be very interested in reading more.  

Thanks!

Tilt back feels like its name.  It doesn't feel floaty.  Also, I'm not sure testing tilt back set to a low speed has any reflection on how it acts at high speed. At high speed it has A LOT more work to do, in a much shorter time, and requires a lot more energy to do it.  People told me the tilt back on my KS16s would always be mild, unlike my ancient ks14c, but that still didn't prevent it from almost tilting me right onto my ass in the middle of a crowded shopping street.  Only a lot of arm flapping accompanied by a temporarily stopped heart, kept me upright.  Yes, I had experienced milder tilt back at llower speeds, but it wasn't the same as high speed.  None of which answeres your question because floaty, is not tilt back.  Something else was triggered.  What was your battery level at the time?

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Hmm. Battery was 93%.  It was cold out, but the road was dry and clean.  It happened so fast I’m not 100% sure of my recollection.  Floaty seems accurate, but maybe that’s because one minute I was leaning forward and the next I was standing upright and falling backwards. I did not feel active pushback, but maybe that’s just because everything is so new I didn’t register it.  I can say with certainty that it did not feel like how I thought tilt back would feel.  Rather, it just felt like suddenly I had no control over the wheel.  At the time my only reaction was WTF just happened.  In retrospect I thought it was tiltback because I heard the 3 or four beeps and after reading through the forum and looking at the app I realized that the threshold was so low I could have tripped it without realizing it.  12.5 mph is fast when trying to step off a wheel, but I’m used to comparatively faster speeds on my electric skateboard.  

Does the Kingsong beep if it has a motor controller error?  Not saying that was the problem—just wondering.  

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On 1/21/2019 at 8:03 PM, Paul2579 said:

Hmm. Battery was 93%.  It was cold out, but the road was dry and clean.  It happened so fast I’m not 100% sure of my recollection.  Floaty seems accurate, but maybe that’s because one minute I was leaning forward and the next I was standing upright and falling backwards. I did not feel active pushback, but maybe that’s just because everything is so new I didn’t register it.  I can say with certainty that it did not feel like how I thought tilt back would feel.  Rather, it just felt like suddenly I had no control over the wheel.  At the time my only reaction was WTF just happened.  In retrospect I thought it was tiltback because I heard the 3 or four beeps and after reading through the forum and looking at the app I realized that the threshold was so low I could have tripped it without realizing it.  12.5 mph is fast when trying to step off a wheel, but I’m used to comparatively faster speeds on my electric skateboard.  

Does the Kingsong beep if it has a motor controller error?  Not saying that was the problem—just wondering.  

Does the King Song beep?... I call mine Lassie because I never know what she's trying to tell me.  Based on your additional information; speed, battery level, etc, I'm thinking it could only have been tilt back.  You don't weigh like 300 lbs do you, because rapidly accelerating that amount of mass could overpower a lesser wheel, but not something like an XL. In my experience, when a wheel throws you it's not always easy to diagnose why, so this may remain a mystery/suspected tilt back.  Video it next time.;)

Edited by Smoother
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19 hours ago, Paul2579 said:

 

Does the Kingsong beep if it has a motor controller error?  Not saying that was the problem—just wondering.  

Some wheels have gentle tiltback that doesn't get your attention, others have really strong tiltback that sends you up into the air, and some have proportional whereby the faster your acceleration the harder the titlback occurs.

For the various errors your manual should contain them. You might want to have a spare control board handy (I do for my KS16S).

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OK, thanks for all the advice.  I'm going to do some experimenting at low speeds and low tiltback thresholds to see if I can replicate the experience.  Once the snow clears... 

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11 hours ago, Paul2579 said:

OK, thanks for all the advice.  I'm going to do some experimenting at low speeds and low tiltback thresholds to see if I can replicate the experience.  Once the snow clears... 

I believe many EUC riders very quickly bail once they feel the wheel goes awry. You get a few faceplants and before you can help it you end up with cockroach reactions that involuntarily makes you bail.

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On 1/19/2019 at 9:30 PM, Paul2579 said:

So I was trying to get a feel for quick acceleration and deceleration.  New wheel.  Newbie rider.  I hadn't previously heard any beeps, then all the sudden I heard 3 or 4 in quick succession, and then the wheel seemed to get floaty under me.  The weird part was that when I started to lean back to brake I felt like the motor wasn't going to catch me at all.  So rather than continue to roll myself backwards, I stepped off, which resulted in me quickly sitting my butt on the ground anyway.  

As best I can tell I tripped the 18XL default threshold for tiltback.  Which I think is set at only 12.5 miles initially.  After that, I'm guessing my surprise caused me to misread my lean angle in relation to the wheel and I never really tilted back far enough to engage the brake, and then panicked and jumped ship. 

I'm going to set the titlback threshold even lower next time and get a feel for how the wheel reacts at speeds that aren't going to dump me on the ground. 

Does anyone have any better thoughts?  

Also, I'm having trouble following the threads on proper settings of alarms for the 18L/XL. If anyone cares to re-summarize how the speed limiting works on the 18XL, I'd be very interested in reading more.  

Thanks!

Avoid reaching tilt-back speed. Set warnings for lower threshold. Not doing so causes premature scarring of the wheel and those lovely black foot plats. :)

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After some experimenting at lower (and slowly increasing) speeds, I can say it was definitely tiltback.  And I wholeheartedly agree I don’t want to make a habit of it! 

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Tiltback is actually very nice if you're accelerating slowly. In fact, it's often not noticeable at all!

The nasty stuff happens when you're speeding up quick, and the wheel has to suddenly shoot out ahead of you. That's scary. 

I'd really like to see two tiltback settings- one for the "stiffer pedals", one for the scary tiltback. Set the latter to 50km/h, the former to 40 or so, voice warnings between the two. Then it's hard to accelerate past the lower limit unintentionally, and the wheel will never have to use the "real" tiltback- since you have plenty of actual safety margin.

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I would like to feel the wheel vibrate firmly before tiltback, like the motor is hickuping.  That would get anyones attention.

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On 1/20/2019 at 3:30 AM, Paul2579 said:

As best I can tell I tripped the 18XL default threshold for tiltback.  Which I think is set at only 12.5 miles initially.  After that, I'm guessing my surprise caused me to misread my lean angle in relation to the wheel and I never really tilted back far enough to engage the brake, and then panicked and jumped ship. 

I'm going to set the titlback threshold even lower next time and get a feel for how the wheel reacts at speeds that aren't going to dump me on the ground. 

Does anyone have any better thoughts?  

That sounds pretty spot on. If the tilt back sets in quickly it feels like losing support under the heels (hence floaty), because it is like losing support under the heels. The "correct" reaction is to push the heels deeper (or to the same effect lift the forefoot), but that needs some courage or experience. I believe it also helps to have had the knees bent to have leverage pushing the heels down. I was doing some practicing setting the tilt back to 10km/h to get used to it. It doesn't need a lot of practice, in comparison :P

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Hey fellow Boston XL rider! Glad to see someone else is still out and about in the city in this weather. I can only echo what others in this thread have said. Tiltback has always felt firm and never "floaty" to me. 

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Hey, thanks for the note.  I’m getting my miiles in now so I’m ready for my commute out to Waltham when the spring weather hits!  

I saw someone on Z10 just the other day, but otherwise the streets are pretty empty...

 

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If you want to engage with the community, the Facebook group "esk8 riders" is what I would recommend. Our community is mostly eskaters, but we have ~10 EUC riders in the area. 

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I got tiltback on my XL during a group ride recently; it was definitely a heart stopping experience. It was also firm and somewhat jarring. There is no doubt in my mind that tiltback on the XL is capable of dislodging me forthwith. Thankfully,  in this instance I managed to keep my balance. I must have recovered fairly smoothly, because my fellow riders seemed unaware when I announced what I had experienced.

The tiltback didn't result from high-speed. It resulted from what seems like another odd problem for a different discussion thread.

On a previous occasion, I had the firmware speed limit set to 40kph; went for plenty of rides with these settings in place. I usually don't use the app much once my settings are stored. I rely on beeps and voice warnings from the wheel to control top speeds. So I hadn't used the app in a tick or two.

Somehow, my speed settings were kicked back to 20kph without me touching the app. It didn't surface until well into the ride because we were doing a more chilled-out trail ride. Now,  I will have to check my app before every ride. 

Edited by Lutalo
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54 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

Somehow, my speed settings were kicked back to 20kph without me touching the app

You were hacked.;) 

See people, even on the most modern of KS wheels the tilt back can be a heart stopper.  This is why I stay well clear of my #3 beeps (set just before tilt back)

Edited by Smoother
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3 minutes ago, Smoother said:

You were hacked.;) 

See people, even on the most modern of KS wheels the tilt back can be a heart stopper.

:D Maybe, it's a mystery to me. I reset tiltback to 50kph and did a speed test all the way to the last warning at 49 kph; so far, so good. We'll see what happens; if the reset limits keep. My PTSD will compel me to connect the app before each ride to make sure.

Nothing more startling than tiltback without beeps or voice warnings at 20 when you think you have 40, and that your first audible warning will come at 35.

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2 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

PTSD

:roflmao:

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10 hours ago, Lutalo said:

Nothing more startling than tiltback without beeps or voice warnings at 20 when you think you have 40, and that your first audible warning will come at 35.

So your tilt back threshold was lower but the warning thresholds were not?  That’s scary and would really mess me up.  

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2 hours ago, Paul2579 said:

So your tilt back threshold was lower but the warning thresholds were not?  That’s scary and would really mess me up.  

Right. Somehow, the previously set warnings were erased. First,  second, third, and tiltback had all defaulted to 20kph when I checked the app; so, no warnings occurred before the wheel somewhat abruptly raised the foot plats. 

I will have to be sure to at least connect to the app before a ride to inspect the settings.

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On January 23, 2019 at 12:04 AM, LanghamP said:

I believe many EUC riders very quickly bail once they feel the wheel goes awry. You get a few faceplants and before you can help it you end up with cockroach reactions that involuntarily makes you bail.

Right, but through experience comes a calm gut, and by intentionally pushing your limits in a controlled way, you can gain the ability to hold your own when it counts.

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So is the 18XL tilt-back really that violent? I remember on my GT16 it was like the swing of a hammock, it was as if the wheel caught you, not any brutal dislodging attempt :D

I have yet to go fast enough on my MSX to even get close to tilt-back, 38 kph is my max so far. But I really should check it out this weekend.

My preferred method of checking out tilt-back, is to set it to a really slow speed, and then try it out while still not in any real danger. Then I know more what to expect when it happens at speed.

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