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Tire modification (Looking for help)


Esper
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Hi, I'd first like to start off saying I don't have any real experience modifying a tire and since I only have the one to mess with and there are not any other options on the market I am looking for help from those here on the forum.

Timeline: I need this done asap, but can extend my duration to as far as wednesday next week.

The wheel: It's a 10x2.5 Dualtron 2 EX tire. I've had tons of problems with. Today I had my 9th flat in 7 weeks.

My current idea is to reinforce the tire with an anti puncture tape by Bell. I can't find any information about the product online, so I am sure it will not turn out well.
The last time I performed this attempt I had a tire blowout in the middle of my commute home. The tape was loose inside the tire and caused the inner tube to build up pressure from the heat resulting in a pop. My current attempt is to place rubber cement inside the tire and then place the tape against it and hold it in place with another inner tube while it dries.

I'll take the inner tube out tomorrow to inspect it's adhesive properties and if it is pretty attached I'll try it.

The help I am asking for is if anyone knows a way to reinforce a tire through creative means that doesn't cause a flat through the modification. I would prefer not to damage the tire but will consider options.

What types of glue would work well under the conditions of -01° to 62° C (30°F to 150° F) and speeds up to 68 kph (42 mph)
This would be if the rubber cement doesn't hold out by tomorrow.

What other methods can I use to enhance the tire to make it stronger? Soaking silk strips into glue then attaching them into the inside of the tire maybe? Other suggestions welcome.

Lastly, What tires would work as an alternative? This solid tire did not work, it exploded after 4 days of use.

I'm at the end of my rope here and would really love to sell this damn thing, but as it happens, no one as of yet wants to buy the thing, and I don't blame them.

I'd imagine some of you creative people would have an idea that I could try and I am crazy enough to attempt it at this point.

I appreciate any help anyone can provide. I'm open to all suggestions, even bad ones. 

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https://www.americanindustrialtire.com/foamfilled.htm  

Industrial tire shops can fill your tires for you, a little expensive but my shop did that to the floor scrubbing machine that was constantly getting flats and they were flat free after that.  The only problem was they didn't put enough foam in one tire and it was softer than the other tire.  Had to be redone.  After that, they worked great until the tread wore off, then got new tires and filled them with foam also.

They are turned into to solid tires by the foam, with a little give to them.  No air inside at all.  

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The first "crazy" idea that comes in my mind is to replace both tube and tire with brand new ones. For any streak of flats I had in the past that worked each and every time, except for the cases where I damaged the brand new tube during installation.

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For many EUC owners the first thing to do with a new wheel is to fill the tire with a puncture sealant. As your punctures are so numerous, I would however consider first wether the punctures are such that the sealant would work with. Fe: clean holes on the tread side is the best, abrasion at the rim side is a tough one.

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9 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

What tire pressure are you running? 

I run at 45 - 50 psi.

3 hours ago, Mono said:

The first "crazy" idea that comes in my mind is to replace both tube and tire with brand new ones. For any streak of flats I had in the past that worked each and every time, except for the cases where I damaged the brand new tube during installation.

I've tried that and still get flat. Honestly the tire is new, less than 2 months old. If I have to replace the tire every time I get a flat, then the scooter isn't built right. It would also cost way more than it's worth.

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

For many EUC owners the first thing to do with a new wheel is to fill the tire with a puncture sealant. As your punctures are so numerous, I would however consider first wether the punctures are such that the sealant would work with. Fe: clean holes on the tread side is the best, abrasion at the rim side is a tough one.

Each tube I use is filled with 2-3 oz of Slime. Each time I change the tube I take the tire to the sink and clean it with a little soap and a sponge. Remove all objects that are sticking into it, let it dry, and put in a repaired or new tube. I've gone through 3 different inner tube patch companies and the vulcanizing kind with a high quality rubber cement works really well. The only problem is that the tire is so thin and fragile that anything can go through it.

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9 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I read all three of these and do everything correctly. I really believe that the problem is that the tire is just not well made and it allows objects to pierce it without much effort compared to other tires. A mountain bike tire can easily go over gravel without any of the rocks embedding into it whereas my scooter tire, I pulled a rock out from the tire just yesterday. It wasn't even a sharp rock either.

In the article it mentions the plastic strip. That is what I am attempting now. But the last time I tried it, the strip was a little loose and caused the tube to pop because of heat buildup.

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I’m no tireologist, but maybe try to figure out the root cause of why these tires are failing so often.  Is the motor just getting too hot that it is melting / weakening the inner tube?  I imagine a tiny motor made to run at high RPM under load is going to get hot.  Can you adjust the power to be more 60:40 up front like in some AWD setups?  Does one wheel motor feel hotter than the other?  Is the rear brake dragging on the disc putting increased load on the motor driving it hotter?  How is the power balanced and synched between the two motors? 

Maybe some insulating material around the inside of the metal rim closest to the motor magnets might protect the inner tube from heat.  With Goop / Slime inside the tube as well perhaps that could be something to try.  I wonder if that solid tire basically got so hot from the motor that the rubber just exploded.  I wonder if it’s possible to fill the inner tube with some water / antifreeze and air...

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love
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I see where you're mind is leading Hunka. But my flats are caused from literal punctures. A screw, glass, a small metal pointy object (I don't even know what it was). I also think its due to the horrible road conditions here where I live. On each intersection there are the yellow bumpy pads to warn blind people that the edge of the street is there. Or some say it is for grip? But I highly doubt those reasons.
The bumpy pads are literally nailed into the sidewalk with the nail heads sticking out about 1/4 an inch in many many places. There are also numerous potholes and so much garbage on the path home. Transients smash glass bottles onto the ground of a bicycle path. There is a Heroin problem so there are needles everywhere too.
I get that sometimes a flat isn't preventable but for the simple stuff like a thorn from a blackberry bush, those are what I want to stop. Like glass in the road from a car accident 3 years ago. Or that one rock that entered into the sidewalk. Or maybe that small stick that has been run over 200 times.

I just want to go 2 weeks without a flat. That is my goal. 

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4 hours ago, steve454 said:

https://www.americanindustrialtire.com/foamfilled.htm  

Industrial tire shops can fill your tires for you, a little expensive but my shop did that to the floor scrubbing machine that was constantly getting flats and they were flat free after that.  The only problem was they didn't put enough foam in one tire and it was softer than the other tire.  Had to be redone.  After that, they worked great until the tread wore off, then got new tires and filled them with foam also.

They are turned into to solid tires by the foam, with a little give to them.  No air inside at all.  

You said you used this for a floor scrubbing machine. Will this work with tires that move at over 40 mph with temps of at most 150° F?

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The one clue that sticks out though is that solid tire split.  Surely that wasn’t due to riding over nails, syringes, and glass?  It looks almost like the heat cooked the rubber leading to it splitting?  Perhaps temperature is your enemy which is weakening the rubber making it more susceptible to external puncture.  I couldn’t find any Kevlar tires in that size, but then again reviews seem mixed on Kevlar.  Too bad they don’t have those open honeycomb airless tires for these scooters.

https://gizmodo.com/5090532/honeycomb-tires-take-a-lick-just-dont-actually-lick-them

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I don't want to make an excuse but for that solid tire, I rode for about 1 hour and 20 minutes non-stop on pavement during a 95° F day on a stretch of very hot days. The ground I'm assuming was about 150° and the quality of the tire, in my opinion, wasn't all rubber. I feel like, to save costs possibly, they put a plastic core interior. Plastic melts and expands at a much much lower heat than rubber. If it were hot enough to melt rubber, it would have to be over 1000° F. It doesn't seem likely that the tire would reach a temperature of that level without causing damage to the internal motor.
I do know that heat is an issue, but as we get into the colder months, that should not cause as much a problem. I've already decided, if I have the scooter until next summer, I'm buying a different fender to allow better air flow.

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1 hour ago, Esper said:

You said you used this for a floor scrubbing machine. Will this work with tires that move at over 40 mph with temps of at most 150° F?

Yes.  But if the tires are really thin, bad quality rubber, the tread would possibly split and come off.  Maybe a different brand of tire is what you need.  There seems to be a lot of choices in that size.  Here is one, does it look thicker than the stock tire?  http://southbaytrikke.com/product/trikke-tire-10x2-5-heavy-duty/

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2 hours ago, steve454 said:

Yes.  But if the tires are really thin, bad quality rubber, the tread would possibly split and come off.  Maybe a different brand of tire is what you need.  There seems to be a lot of choices in that size.  Here is one, does it look thicker than the stock tire?  http://southbaytrikke.com/product/trikke-tire-10x2-5-heavy-duty/

You know, oddly enough, I've visited that site and it has also been linked two times now on this forum. Those scooters they are used on are exercise equipment that have you move at about 15 mph at top speed. If the quality of the tire is good, I may actually get one but as they are used for a custom made machine I'm not entirely positive on it fitting into my Dualtron. I'll send them an email and see what they say.

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35 minutes ago, Esper said:

You know, oddly enough, I've visited that site and it has also been linked two times now on this forum. Those scooters they are used on are exercise equipment that have you move at about 15 mph at top speed. If the quality of the tire is good, I may actually get one but as they are used for a custom made machine I'm not entirely positive on it fitting into my Dualtron. I'll send them an email and see what they say.

Hopefully they can recommend a tire.  You've tried stock and solid, maybe one more different brand will be the good one.

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I bought some Black Silicone from a hardware store. I am trying that as an adhesive for that plastic anti-puncture strip to the tire. I put a lot inside, then the strip, and then inflated the inner tube. I assembled the entire back end and put some slime in the tube. Inflated with air, the tube pushed some of the silicone out of the tire through the numerous holes. At least I know it is a snug fit for now.

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I took the trip to work with a success! The wheel feels more stable than originally. Like a semi-cross between the solid tire and the air tire. I like it so far. The silicone seems to be holding up so far. I have not yet taken my return trip home so we will see how well it stacks up to the more rugged ride home. (homeward side of the street is more cluttered with debris)

If it fails, I'll let you know.

Update:
Tire modification has survived the first day of commuting to and then from work. 20 miles of successful travel!

Update:
Tube ultimately lasted 4 weeks of constant use. I put about 200 miles on it before it failed. I had not used enough silicone.
I had sold the scooter 3 days after my fix using more silicone. It is no longer my concern.

Edited by Esper
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  • 1 month later...

In my experience, anti-puncture bands are not so good, because along the time they file the inner tube, because they are harder than the tube itself.

Best solution for me it is slime, and a good tire. Kenda K-1122 which is easy to find through eBay or Aliexpress is very hard to puncture it.

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1 hour ago, Rotator said:

Kenda K-1122 which is easy to find through eBay or Aliexpress

If I search "Kenda K-1122" or anything similar on Aliexpress I get all kind of Kenda tires as result, but not a K-1122 tire.

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6 hours ago, Rotator said:

In my experience, anti-puncture bands are not so good, because along the time they file the inner tube, because they are harder than the tube itself.

Best solution for me it is slime, and a good tire. Kenda K-1122 which is easy to find through eBay or Aliexpress is very hard to puncture it.

I know of this. You telling me gives me no added information. That is the reason I used the silicone on the anti-puncture tape. It prevents it from moving thus preventing of the filing down of the inner tube.
Also, filing down of the inner tube is not the leading cause for my failures with it. It is heat transfer from the movement of the tape to the tube that causes a higher pressure buildup resulting in a pop.
If there were better tires of that size, I'd love to get one. I looked online many times over the course of two months and in that time only found 2 alternative tires. one being solid, the other being for a low speed workout machine. The vehicle I use(ed) goes 40 mph. A 10 inch tire moving at 40 mph creates a lot of heat. The rear fender is so close to the tire it almost rubs against it. This doesn't allow for good heat dissipation.
My work, as mentioned above, adds the anti-puncture strip to prevent thorns or random bits of glass from getting to the inner tube. The silicone, keeps that in place preventing the heat buildup. If there was a better tire that I could find, I'd get it. I don't really appreciate a "go look for it yourself" type comment. If it is "easy to find" then maybe you should link it instead of sending others on a wild goose chase as @Mono has done.

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  • 1 year later...

I’ve had this Dualtron Mini for around a month now.  I’ve been through four tire tubes and I’ve change the wheel so many times the brake cable Is starting to fray where it connects to the motor. I am experiencing the same issues and the tire itself is starting to break down on the inside. My mini only goes 32 mph. I believe the tire pops when I use the rear brake real hard to stop.  Seriously thinking about using the silicone with the anti-puncture band and filling it with slime. But after going from a Segway nine bot that had a solid wheel and never had any issues ,I am leaning more that way.  If there’s one that would fit.  If anyone has a link for a 8.5 x 2 that will fit my size rim I would greatly appreciate it.

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