Gotway Tesla wobbles - yes I know it's skill so teach me

[Boogieman]

1. I'm a noob, just 360km so far

2. From day one my main caveat is wobble at higher speeds

3. Today I mounted up to go for max speed (MC helmet and so on) but was stopped at 40km/h by instant wobble

4. To make sure that "non relaxation" was not an issue I made sure to soften legs and brain with a few glasses of wine up front (sure, it's not as safe you say, but I fall less often like that and ride a lot smoother, faster and more stable..cause I'm a n00b I guess (maybe when I'm not I will do a better job with 0.0). Only Me, not You...we have different genetics. Been like that for me allways, since I started skiing. Of course I don't drive a car drunk...as the speed offsets that advantage and you don't need any leg softener in a frekkin sofa lol)

So, above 35 wobble is an issue. I have to break to stabilizer every so often and then back to aim for 53km/h but above 40....it's just instant wobble...slow wobble like 2-3Hz maybe.

Straight legs help

5ppm helps

Being protected helps

Running on flats, without people...IS A MUST

BUT STILL...check my log...unfortunately could not take a video with my phone, but I can up a different night ride where the light wobble is very obvious...if someone had any idea....except....your a noob, it will come to you ?

foot stance..yes I tried

- wide, I tried super wide (required stiff shoes since I have duck feet or else toe goes down around edge of pedals). Now I run wide enough to keep contact with pads, but standing one toe outside pedal and with heel slightly back of the rear edge of the pedal. That works best FOR ME.

- stiff legs, basically a must. Very very slight bend in knees. Anything more than slight and wobble is a fact even below 35

- Shoes, tried sneakers, skeechers, tennis shoes, skate shoes (high ankle), racing shoes (high ankle)...so far the stiff sole, but soft insole skeechers are the best

- surface, or course the smoother the less break in to prevent any "jump induced" wobble (like over ridges) but in general I go over smooth asphalt that goes a bit up and down....u don't notice it with bike or roller blades but man you really travel vertically on even the sweetest of asphalt haha

 

So....what is the trick ? ive heard all above, but if there is an even more superior option please let me know

 

boogie

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, Boogieman said:

So....what is the trick ? ive heard all above, but if there is an even more superior option please let me know 

Most probale cause for the wobble is that you just need to take some more time and the "skill" will come by itself...

Other points that could help/be some reason for the wobble you did not mention:

Tire pressure

Tire not sitting well on the rim

Wheel needs balancing

[Unventor]

The 3 or maybe 4 steps that fixed this for me, now keep in mind I only have like 350km experience but this works 99.9% of the times. 

1 Do not ride when your body is tired. 

2. Step off the wheel, wait 2-5sec step back up. This is likely to gain you a new foot stand in case you a bit off center with balance. Focus when you step back on learn where to place foot that works for you.

3. Slow down, takes time to build up body's natural strength and muscle memory. 

4. Relax, it can be hard at first as it is natural response to tense up. Tending up only makes it worse.

Sounds simple right? In time it will feel like stepping up. In beginning it was hard and you think, why was this so hard, as now it is second nature to you.

[LanghamP]

We may simply be near the limits of what can be held relatively safely between human legs. Motorcycle front wheels are held between massive forks with steering dampners, and even cyclocross bicycles have relatively huge forks along with thru axles. Your legs and your hips flex a damned sight more than those.

Skiers can go much faster but then again they don't have a spinning front wheel holding lots of kinetic energy.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

How much do you weigh?  Aiming for 53 kph could be trouble as I think Ron from Miami crashed at that speed.  I’m estimating that he likely weighs 195 -210 lbs or around there.  The fastest I’ve gone is 49 kph, but I’m around 167 lbs.  Having a healthy reserve amount of speed available at the top end will keep you afloat just in case you hit a bump, a gust of wind stikes you, or you encounter a slight incline.

It’s not a race!    I rode over 1000 kms on my Ninebot at 22 kph before exploring  the upper speed ranges on my Tesla.  And even with that it took some time to gain confidence in the wheel.  Hitting 49 kph is no big difference than reaching 45 kph.  It’s just windier.  I usually don’t even know I’m hitting it unless I hear the beeps or check my max speed log.

Maybe wobbles are good in that they force you to slow down.  Your body induces them because it feels that you are already going fast enough.  I think leg tremors bring them on.  Once you master the speed increases with different techniques, it will eventually come.  There’s no rush.  The real reward is completing your every ride without falling and injury.  Whether you can do that at 25 kph or 45 kph is not really a huge deal unless you crave that speed thrill riding near the limit.  I would peg that personal limit cautiously though since these wheels and riding factors likely aren’t exactly the same.  How did you come up with the 53 kph target?

Edited July 17, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Boogieman]

5 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

1. How much do you weigh?  Aiming for 53 kph could be trouble as I think Ron from Miami crashed at that speed.  I’m estimating that he likely weighs 195 -210 lbs or around there.  

2. It’s not a race!    I rode over 1000 kms on my Ninebot at 22 kph before exploring  the upper speed ranges on my Tesla.  And even with that it took some time to gain confidence in the wheel.

3. Hitting 49 kph is no big difference than reaching 45 kph.  It’s just windier.  I usually don’t even know I’m hitting it unless I hear the beeps or check my max speed log.

4. Maybe wobbles are good in that they force you to slow down.  Your body induces them because it feels that you are already going fast enough.  I think leg tremors bring them on.    

5. There’s no rush.  The real reward is completing your every ride without falling and injury.

6. Whether you can do that at 25 kph or 45 kph is not really a huge deal unless you crave that speed thrill riding near the limit?

1. 88Kg solo me, with gear/clothed I guess around 92-3kg. Length 192cm so quite tall.

53based on where most vehicles cutout from videos I have seen (and when beep come if running unloaded in air and then cut around 60), but I don't want to go there. I am fine to reach the beeps and the slow down. Not going for the edge.

2. I did quite a bunch of hours (miles takr time lol) on my mini plus, but got bored of the speed (claimed 20, actual max 16-17 = Speedo faulty in app). Still use it for short "in centre" comutes though when wearing nicer clothes (no need to gear up)..and the follow mode is fun to use...people get quite surprised, some even start filming

3. Was a bit windy yesterday (ride by the sea front) though more sideway, headwind can be heard even in motor bike helmet at 35-40. Hear the lvl 2 beeps easy at least.

4. Wobbles are never good ? as they increase crash risk, decrease manoeuvrability and show a sign of weakness in me (shaking head lol) or construction of wheel. While I hope it's me, I can't let go of the balloon bicycle tire, might try to pump it to 50psi (max 45 on tyrewall but should be some margin)

5. This is true, but I want to go faster some days...normally 30-35is good enough (nice Cruise speed) but at long straights no people I don't like going that slow, this speed up.

6. I like the thrill (which the wobble actually give) but most of all I want to rid wobble and be sure its me...and how to overcome it (with tips and tricks) as reaching 40 wasn't so much me (imo) but ride stance and leg straightness played the biggest part.

Straight legs = remove wobble, crouch increase.

Foot placement wide but still "holding" pads lightly (causes my small toe going outside pedal though, duck feet)

and shoe heel about 3cm outside of pedal (to have "front, toe cushion" inside pedal at same time and have stability back to front)

Both feet standing in same stance length wise most of all, but preferably similar width wise too helps me

Tire pressure...time to experiement I guess. I'm at the heavy side of the spectrum so should be in high pressure area. Though don't want to blow up the tyre (tube) in high speed as that would be really bad.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Boogieman

[Boogieman]

16 hours ago, Unventor said:

The 3 or maybe 4 steps that fixed this for me, now keep in mind I only have like 350km experience but this works 99.9% of the times. 

1 Do not ride when your body is tired. 

2. Step off the wheel, wait 2-5sec step back up. This is likely to gain you a new foot stand in case you a bit off center with balance. Focus when you step back on learn where to place foot that works for you.

3. Slow down, takes time to build up body's natural strength and muscle memory. 

4. Relax, it can be hard at first as it is natural response to tense up. Tending up only makes it worse.

Sounds simple right? In time it will feel like stepping up. In beginning it was hard and you think, why was this so hard, as now it is second nature to you.

1. I ride full day (till battery 20%), too much fun not to ride ? but I see what you mean, don't max out when tired. So not after a heavy squat and calf workout then. Makes sense though riding works fine also there. It's just the wobbles, nothing else.

2. I allways adjust my foot stance when ON the wheel before taking off (often just some cm length wise adjustment needed). Was hard at start (wiggly) as it required to slide/lift the foot without loosing pressure as the grip tape is silly good. Since about a week (out of my 3 weeks) I guess I counter without thinking of it as I rarely wiggle too much when adjusting and I do it as I speed up as its easier to balance than at standstill.

3. Wrong way, I want to speed up ? but yes it does, we have done the same milage (360km here) I noted so good to hear you don't have wobble. 

4. I am relaxed, feels like it. I don't find the speed horrifying as I do or have done a lot of faster sports like sky diving several years, race track with car and bike as often as I get the chance and I also like to dive. What I love about EUCs is the feeling of total freedom on those wheels and the manoeuvrability. I know I can go with a car too, but it's not the same. And a lot more fun than driving a car or gokart ? regardless if it's slower.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Boogieman

[RockyTop]

I believe most wobble is caused by foot placement and feedback looping. (Over Competition loop) 

Your feet might not be set far enough forward.  Watch videos to check placement.

Also you might try the one foot forward and one back. Offset by 2 inches.

Or favor one foot, I control speeds with one and peg leg the other then switch out to keep from getting foot fatigue. 

I would never drive after drinking. I do know that people with ............. unique brains do better playing video games after two drinks. 

19 hours ago, Boogieman said:

4. To make sure that "non relaxation" was not an issue I made sure to soften legs and brain with a few glasses of wine up front (sure, it's not as safe you say, but I fall less often like that and ride a lot smoother, faster

 

[Boogieman]

20 hours ago, RockyTop said:

I believe most wobble is caused by foot placement and feedback looping. (Over Competition loop) 

Your feet might not be set far enough forward.  Watch videos to check placement.

Also you might try the one foot forward and one back. Offset by 2 inches.

Or favor one foot, I control speeds with one and peg leg the other then switch out to keep from getting foot fatigue. 

I would never drive after drinking. I do know that people with ............. unique brains do better playing video games after two drinks. 

 

Appreciate the tip on foot placement, will try (again)NOW (just geared up). With regards to videos, I have yet not seen any feet as wide as mine. Imagine a showel...size 45-46. 

Well, with regards to gaming me and my best friend topped lists in HL op4ce and some other mods...but only when we played at night...AFTER coming home from a full-blown party or dance out session. A small amount will increase relaxation (that's why alcohol is not allowed in ski with shooting...as its classified anabolic in that genre) a big amount should decrease reflexes and be counter effective.

Though our brains are not unique in a way that we have AdHd or Asperger's if that's what you were thinking of ?

 

Note! THERE IS NO MEDICAL SCIENCE BEHIND MY STATEMENT AND I WOULE NOT ADVICE ANYONE TO TRY any of above described scenarios (just to be sure that I am not giving advice, just sharing MY experience)

Edited July 18, 2018 by Boogieman

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

I'm 167 lbs, and I like to run 60 psi in my Tesla tire.  It tends to slowly leak out over time as I haven't done the Slime/Goop thing, but I just pump it back up.  45 feels like the tire is flat to me.    I think it's probably all up to personal preference, but after seeing some people bend their rims, I think running a higher psi might be a safer bet.  Try the one foot tilted up and the other bracing on one side technique.  That seems to work pretty well for me.  Watch out for severe wobbles as they are very scary when you're going fast.  

[Boogieman]

Its been some time (about 4'000 km) since I started this thread and I can safely say that the Tesla wobbles...more or less, regardless of stance, shoes, having a beer, being rested or not, tire pressure.
Braking from high speed = wobbles a bit
Accelerating hard = wobbles a bit...sometimes
Accelarating close to point of cutout (where the wheel is on the verge of cutting out...feels like Youre about to fall forward but then wheel catches up in a bit uncontrolled manner) = wobbles A LOT "behind You" (it have caught up so far...wont push it further)
Taking a corner fast and sharp = wobbles more...more speed = more wobble
Zig-zagging in 40+ km/h = not really a wobble, but a shift from the tyre not withstanding the force that in the beginning was initially interpreted as a wobble.

The upside is, it wobbles...but nothing else happens  
I am used to riding motor bikes and if it starts to wobble there and You go into a tank slapper wobble, then You could be in trouble (in very high speeds it could mean a high side)

But with only one contact point with the ground there is no geometry that can make things worse, just the speed (mostly).
But even if cornering very fast with wheel wobbling below You, as long as the tire keeps contact with tarmac...NO PROBLEM (except that in the beginning it feels like You are going to crash any second)

Basically its something I have learnt to accept and it comes to a point where You enjoy it (as the straight forward speed is not fun any more, basically the same as when starting to race with cars or motor bikes...at first the power straight ahead is loads of fun....but after a while its all about apex)

To minimize wobble, what worked for me:
- Tire pressure - if going for fast cornering - as much as the wheel can take to stabilize the wobbly bicycle tyre  (I weigh in between 88-95Kg aka 194-209lbs...not too much wobbly mass :p...seasonal.... and always run max inflation as per tirewall marking..or slightly above). Higher pressure make the wheel A LOT quicker to manouvre (shorter reaction from "wanting to turn" to "actually turning" meaning it also gets more "nervous" but its minimize wobble. I would say as a beginner its a lot easier to go low pressure but as speed picks up You want to be able to quickly steer away from obstacles...or just steer )
- Kuji pads + remove the padding around the knees. The idea is basically to allow the wheel to wobble freely between knees (when needed...unclamp knees from wheel) while keeping pressure on the lower part where the distance to the ground is less - not regenerating any...or at least less "body induced" extra wobble
- Shoes - its for sure easier to go faster and more stable in a pair of thin sole shoes(I love my skechers)  than shoes with a thick sole (i.e. nike air or winter shoes) as the distance and cushioning between foot and pedal decrease. Probably going bare foot would be ideal...but it would probably hurt a lot  especially if crashing
- Stance - Yes,  bent legs = more wobble. Straight legs = less wobble (ok a slight bend in the knee is allways needed to take the load of the knee cap)
- "Tyre goo" (aka anti puncture goo) - just like on any tyre this is distributed inside the tube. If not evenly distributed (it never is) it will not create a wobble, but it will create an inbalance in the wheel that You can feel when going straight forward on flat tarmac. If turning with imbalance the wobble increase. My next step is to go tubeless to only have the tyre as imbalance (and minimze unsuspended wight and of course the need of finding a fitting tube that is a hassle)
- Nicks on rim. I noted after a year I had a few, not big ones but visible. If the rim is nicked its likely also not perfectly straight any more. So to minimize risk of nicked rim, go for high pressure in the tyre and use kuji pads so You can jump properly over kerbs (before them - to me - i found it impossible)
- After that, relax and let the wobble come...You will enjoy it eventually

If You dont enjoy the wobble, I would go for a newer wheel. I have tested a MSX and my god it feels like a tank when going straight ahead and in turns.
Bigger wheel diameter = slower to turn but more stability (MSX imo is the perfect middle way, probably any machine with that diameter and wheel width would work)
Big wheel width = slower to turn but more stability (after trying the Xiaomi Z10 i was STOKED how incredibly HARD it was to turn with it, really had to force it)

But in the end - I have a really hard time parting with the extreme manouverability of the tiny Tesla wheel, even if it means a bit of wobble. 
I would love if they made a MSP with a smaller tyre (Width and diameter in between Tesla and MSP) - that would probably be my imediate choice.

Hope it helps someone

ps
I will make my first grip tape change, I guess that will help to as of right now its zero sand on several places on the pedals...aka its long due and horrible when going offroad in the woods 
Went for Jessup - seemed long lasting and good grip on long boards and didnt wear out shoes. If not enough I will try the coarser jessup. If thats not enough I guess I will have to wait for Vicious to stock again and probably buy a few more shoes LOL)
ds

Edited April 15, 2020 by Boogieman

[Igor]

Another thing that makes my Tesla wobble is me being cold while riding it. When I shiver from being cold, it transfers to the wheel and it goes crazy. The other day it got so bad that I had to stop. So, nice worm clothes for me.🤗

[harry40]

I stated earlier on this forum that the so-called wobble is a natural behaviour of a moving mass-spring combination. In the old days all cardrivers and motorbike riders had to deal with it because the wheel-balancing machine was not yet invented. Many oldfashioned motorcycles had a so-called steering damper that was a device which brought coulomb-friction into the steering system and the friction could be adjusted by a handwheel. Modern motorcycles have well balanced rims and tires so the wheel wobble problem doesn't exist anymore. But an other type of wobbling is still possible when a motorbike is incorrectly loaded with luggage. When the frame is not stiff enough you can get a wonderful wobble.

Back to the EUC.

To get a good understanding of what we are talking about you can do a simple experiment with a bicyclewheel. Take the one end of the axle with the fingers of your left hand and the other axle end with the right hand fingers and make the wheel spinning as fast as you can. What you CAN do now is moving the spinning wheel fast up and down, from left to right and forward backward as long as you move the wheel in a straight line.

What you NOT can do is moving your left hand fast downward in a straight line and simultaneously your right hand fast upward. The wheel starts to make a sort of tumbling movement and you automatically begin to move the axle ends in circles. This all is caused by the coriolis effect.

This effect you can show by spinning the wheel again very fast and then take one hand from the axle-end away. You will see that the wheel starts to rotate slowly around a vertical axis and the free axle end is moving very slowly downward. If you take the other hand away the wheel also rotates around a vertical axis but in the opposite direction.

So if you try to tumble a rotating mass you will have to deal with this effect. For a EUC it means that when certain forces are acting on the wheel (in fact a mass-spring system) e.g. as a result of riding on a ridge or through a pothole it could result in a wobble.

Wobbling is a guite natural behaviour of a EUC and can not be avoided; you have to learn to deal with it. To minimize the effect of the wobble you must take energy out of this oscillating system. One should notice that the frequency of this oscillation had a fixed value and perhaps it could be possible to design a  suitable viscous damper, optimized for this frequency. Maybe there are forum members who have better ideas how to fight the wobble.

[I_Must_Bust]

On 4/20/2020 at 9:29 AM, Igor said:

Another thing that makes my Tesla wobble is me being cold while riding it. When I shiver from being cold, it transfers to the wheel and it goes crazy. The other day it got so bad that I had to stop. So, nice worm clothes for me.🤗

Anything under freezing means long underwear, skintight undershirt, flannel, sweater, and finally my armored hoodie on top. I wear hillbilly wrist guard gloves with some light knit touchscreen gloves under them and can still use my phone. I need some shoes a half size bigger so I can fit super thick socks and sock liners in them. Cold can't stop me!