Why do some wheels allow tilt-back to be disabled?

[RooEUC]

I was under the impression that all self-balancing wheels have a speed limit at which tilt-back happens, otherwise how can the wheel remain balanced if it doesn't push back once it reaches its maximum speed capability?  And so, I'm wondering why some wheels are said to give the user the ability to turn tilt-back off?  Without tilt-back, won't the wheel just reach a speed at which it's unable to provide any more power to keep the rider upright and then just drop the rider?  And if so, why would anyone want that?

 

 

[houseofjob]

@RooMiniPro

AFAIK many of the earliest gen1/gen2 EUCs had no tiltback safety feature, only beeps, for warning.

And I'm not sure why you reference all recent EUC models as having the ability to turn off tiltback, only Gotway is able to do this, and for good reason, as tiltback is a more recent development for Gotway, and setting high speed tiltback has been known to cause cutouts on their current generation of wheels.

[RooEUC]

12 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

@RooMiniPro

 

And I'm not sure why you reference all recent EUC models as having the ability to turn off tiltback

I didn’t. I said “some”.

[houseofjob]

27 minutes ago, RooMiniPro said:

I didn’t. I said “some”.

Fair enough  

It's really only Gotway though, and due to questionable reliability, you really want the option to turn off Gotway tiltback (all Gotway riders in NYC here ride on beeps).

[dmethvin]

The problem with tilt-back is that if not done right it can make you feel you're falling and actually cause a crash. The problem is compounded when the tilt-back speed is close to max speed and there is not a lot of torque left to incline the pedals. 

[LanghamP]

You can ignore tiltback and continue to accelerate well beyond it. You can verify this by setting to 5mph and continuing onward to 15+.

[RooEUC]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

You can ignore tiltback and continue to accelerate well beyond it. You can verify this by setting to 5mph and continuing onward to 15+.

On my Ninebots and the MiniPro I have not been able to ride beyond tilt-back.  I'm guessing this is only possible on Gotways and other brands.  So with tilt-back disabled, if you ride beyond the last warning beep (or don't hear it) and continue to accelerate steadily, the only outcome is falling?  Now I understand why so many people here love extra loud beeps whereas I quieten my beeps as much as possible with mods.  But then again, I ride Segways/Ninebots which are so slow and so safe that people in electric wheelchairs look like adrenaline junkies as they pass me. 

[RooEUC]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

Fair enough  

It's really only Gotway though, and due to questionable reliability, you really want the option to turn off Gotway tiltback (all Gotway riders in NYC here ride on beeps).

Yeah I thought it was mainly only Gotways, but I wasn't sure.  I certainly didn't think it was all EUCs.  I know Ninebots and Segways don't have the option.  It just seemed like an odd feature, to disable the only thing that physically prevents a drop and allowing the rider the choice to ride into destruction if they choose to or don't heed the beeps.  But now I'm starting to learn that some EUCs handle tilt-back dangerously and this can actually cause a fall when it kicks in at speed.  I'm not yet clear on how or why that happens. 

[LanghamP]

22 minutes ago, RooMiniPro said:

On my Ninebots and the MiniPro I have not been able to ride beyond tilt-back.  I'm guessing this is only possible on Gotways and other brands.  So with tilt-back disabled, if you ride beyond the last warning beep (or don't hear it) and continue to accelerate steadily, the only outcome is falling?  

I can ride beyond tiltback with my S1. Or rather continue to accelerate even when tiltback is triggered. I think you can do that with all wheels. Presumably one can lean forward until the wheel can no longer balance you at speed. In practice that has only happened to me once.

I usually wear a sportbike helmet and often a full motorcycle suit. I don't go below 60% and my trips are usually of under 6 miles, so since I can't hear the beeps I have to use tiltback.

Presumably a lot of the speed freaks on this forum are like me; go around 30 mph, wear heavy motorcycle gear, and shrug our shoulders when we crash and destroy our wheels.

 

[houseofjob]

3 minutes ago, RooMiniPro said:

Yeah I thought it was mainly only Gotways, but I wasn't sure.  I certainly didn't think it was all EUCs.  I know Ninebots and Segways don't have the option.  It just seemed like an odd feature, to disable the only thing that physically prevents a drop and allowing the rider the choice to ride into destruction if they choose to or don't heed the beeps.  But now I'm starting to learn that some EUCs handle tilt-back dangerously and this can actually cause a fall when it kicks in at speed.  I'm not yet clear on how or why that happens. 

So AFAIK:

Ninebot/Segway cannot turn off tiltback. Tiltback was a bit steep and sudden than my liking, recalling my former S2 & E+.

InMotion/Solowheel cannot turn off tiltback. Tiltbacks for the InMotion branded V5 & V8 were steep as well, but implemented in stepped succession of steepness. Riding the SoloWheel branded V8 (Glide 3) at CES last month, it seems they smoothed this out a little bit.

King Song cannot turn off tiltback. IMHO tiltback is the most gradual/smooth the few times I've felt it on my KS18's.

iPS cannot turn off tiltback. Don't exactly remember the tiltback on my former i5 and Zero.

So, realistically, there's only Gotway left that can turn off tiltback. (Never bothered to experience Gotway tiltback here, as I had no interest in using it).

 

Tiltback response is a software that is fine-tuned by the manufacturer. I know that Ninebot throughout the years have rolled out firmwares to improve their tiltback response curve, in response to user commenting I believe. 

 

Personally, I never liked tiltback, especially the way a Ninebot/Segway or InMotion implemented it, preferring beeps and haptic feedback, ala wheellog app + smart watch (still need to get a proper Android smart watch!). When I was first starting out on a NB1E+, I was unable to make the proper response of leaning back and slowing down when tiltback would engage, my legs would always lock up.

 

[RooEUC]

I like tilt-back because it physically stops me from going beyond my wheel's available power and breaking my bones.  I don't have to always think "I better not go any faster or my wheel might drop me".  The way I see it, there are only 3 possibilities:

1. Tilt-back. 

2. The user constantly making sure to ride more slowly than the vehicle's maximum speed. 

3. Crash. 

[EternalEnigma]

1. sometimes causes 3.

[RooEUC]

2 hours ago, EternalEnigma said:

1. sometimes causes 3.

But if 1. is missing, isn't 3. more likely?  If you're riding so fast that the max speed the wheel can cope with is reached and tilt-back is turned off, you're likely going down.  At least tilt-back acts like a failsafe and won't let you push the motor beyond its maximum load.  Maybe it's different on the really fast wheels and so my experience is limited, but at 22kph tilt-back never posed a danger in my experience. 

[houseofjob]

FWIW if you ride everyday, every step like I and many do here in NYC, you start to get a rapport and feel for when you are riding at the wheel’s limit, esp referencing the mix of traffic around you with the sensation of the weakening motor power (if you are in fact at the wheel’s very limit).

[Stan Onymous]

35 minutes ago, EternalEnigma said:

 

1. sometimes causes 3.

 

And an overpower power loss always causes one.

I have only felt the tilt back to be bad once on any EUC and that was when I was going over a Speed Hump downhill. 

Other than that, it is only really bad if your shoes hang off the back of the pedals a lot. Mine dont, so tilt back has never bothered me.

I agree with using it so I dont have to mind my speed all the time. 

[The Wizard]

Well, I personally worship the Tilt Back Gods. What you are Really experiencing is the Gods coming to your stupid azz aid and saving your life. Every time it pleasantly nudges me back into sanity, i smile and check off anther Face Plant avoided.

I love Tilt Back. It cuts down on a lot of that annoying bone cracking noise, the loss of that red stuff we so affectionately call blood and saves 10s of thousands of dollars better spent down at the local strip bar.

Of course, there will be many that disagree with me. (Not about the strip bar). But those that need to stand on mile deep cliffs on the last 1" of their heals. Anything for 1mph more speed.

Tilt Back is a wonderful thing. I love it. I love life.

[Jerome]

I seems like I have totally interpreted euc "safety features incorrectly". I thought that whenever you get the "highest" speed warning the wheel will give a violent tilt-back or cut-off. I saw videos  with XXXXX where he was holding the speed at maximum alarm with no consequences other than tilt-back. On the V10F the tilt-back was significant but not enough to force him to stop or be thrown off. On the KS18L he said the tilt-back was mild. Gotway seems to be the only wheel maker that allows you to cancel tilt-back. Speed warnings are just that. The wheel won't cut-off until you pass its power handling capabilities. This is how some riders talk of pushing the envelope with Gotway wheels. They are playing Russian Roulette. 

 I believe power over-load and temperature warnings, however, do imply almost immediate cut-off. Is this correct? Final question, Ninebot, Inmotion and King Song lower maximum speed as the battery drains via tilt-back. Does the tilt-back get more severe as the battery drops? Thanks, in advance for any clarification offered. 

[The Wizard]

Speaking solely about my 9b1 c+...

Yes, the speed gets restricted in 2 segments. I believe max speed is lowered to 6mph at 20% battery left. Tilt Back is enisheated then.

Then again lowered to 3mph at 10% left.

I have experienced (tested) this down to 3% battery before deciding a Face Plant even at 3mph was not worth it.

Tilt Back is mild, most of the time barely noticeable unless you force or ignore it. I treat it as a welcomed blessing.

No. It does not get more severe than severe. It stays at the same severity.

QUIT LEANING FORWARD!!!!!! Is all it can yell/screem at you. A hammer does not reach out and smack you in the face.

The Pavement will be doing that shortly.

Then people get on the forum and complain about their mysterious accident.

Eucs are safe. People are dangerous. 

[Keith]

5 hours ago, Jerome said:

I believe power over-load and temperature warnings, however, do imply almost immediate cut-off. Is this correct? Final question, Ninebot, Inmotion and King Song lower maximum speed as the battery drains via tilt-back. Does the tilt-back get more severe as the battery drops? Thanks, in advance for any clarification offered. 

I cannot see any reason why it would get any more severe, just happen at a lower speed, it takes torque to tiltback so the less you have left the less severe it can be I would have thought? The  more you push through it the steeper the tilt back is likely to get.

Conceptually I have no idea what a power overload looks like or how an EUC could possibly implement a warning for it. Since power =VI and back e.m.f. reduces the apparent voltage at the wheel progressively with increasing speed a power overload could only happen at slow speed. Max Current, and therefore max torque could be overloaded but since tiltback requires torque any warning has to be before that happens. In any case max torque and max current reduce progressively with increased speed as well so a look up table would be needed to identify exceeding either at any given speed. I don’t think anyone implements that so a simplistic ‘guess’ is usually made simply by warning when a particular speed is reached and, at best, reducing that speed as battery voltage under load drops. It take no account of outside temperature, rider weight or gradient beyond its effect on battery voltage and component temperature. 

That just leaves battery voltage and component temperature as monitorable parameters that can generate warnings and, yes, you are correct, to ignore either one of those is to take a great risk and also possibly damage your wheel as well.

[Kael]

7 hours ago, The Wizard said:

Speaking solely about my 9b1 c+...

Yes, the speed gets restricted in 2 segments. I believe max speed is lowered to 6mph at 20% battery left. Tilt Back is enisheated then.

Then again lowered to 3mph at 10% left.

I have experienced (tested) this down to 3% battery before deciding a Face Plant even at 3mph was not worth it.

Tilt Back is mild, most of the time barely noticeable unless you force or ignore it. I treat it as a welcomed blessing.

No. It does not get more severe than severe. It stays at the same severity.

QUIT LEANING FORWARD!!!!!! Is all it can yell/screem at you. A hammer does not reach out and smack you in the face.

The Pavement will be doing that shortly.

Then people get on the forum and complain about their mysterious accident.

Eucs are safe. People are dangerous. 

You must have some seriously slow reaction time potentially face plant at 3mph. 

[The Wizard]

Obviously, You have never had a Cut Out.

In a Cut Out there is no reaction time.

The euc instantly just goes Limp. You will fall in any direction luck feels like throwing at you.

NO, not just forward. The best anyone hopes for is to get their hands out. Eating concrete isn't fun.

You are just thinking it's a "Fall", a failure. Not true.

Why do you think all these experianced, fit and intelligent people call it a Face Plant? They are not stupid, uncoordinated or slow.

Not bragging: I have had gymnastic classes, built and taught trampoline lessons, taught 5 people to ride a regular unicle, can ride a person on my shoulders WITH a person on THEIR shoulders, i juggle, I kayak, i fly and i hangglide. I am also a magician (Wizard). And I am scared shitless of Cut Outs. Falls too. But they are just a different animal.

"Oh today I think I'll be slow and lazy so I can pick my teeth outta the back of my brian."

This is why the Cut Out is so feared.

Fortunately, eucs are safe. People are idiots.

I love to go slow. I love Tilt back. I love my euc. I love life.

Speed kills.

[The Wheel Plug]

Gotway 3rd alarm is at 80% voltage usage so as long as you respect the beep you'll never have an issue ?

[Keith]

7 hours ago, The Wizard said:

Obviously, You have never had a Cut Out.

Speaking as someone who has had a cut out, I can only agree wholeheartedly with @Kael

 

7 hours ago, Kael said:

You must have some seriously slow reaction time potentially face plant at 3mph. 

A cut out at that speed simply lands any normal person on their feet and maybe running a few steps.

Besides why one earth do you keep harping on about speed, if you are faceplanting at 3MPH, absolutely any speed is too fast for you ?

[RockyTop]

10 hours ago, Keith said:

 

Conceptually I have no idea what a power overload looks like or how an EUC could possibly implement a warning for it. Since power =VI and back e.m.f. reduces the apparent voltage at the wheel progressively with increasing speed a power overload could only happen at slow speed. Max Current, and therefore max torque could be overloaded but since tiltback requires torque any warning has to be before that happens. In any case max torque and max current reduce progressively with increased speed as well so a look up table would be needed to identify exceeding either at any given speed. I don’t think anyone implements that so a simplistic ‘guess’ is usually made simply by warning when a particular speed is reached and, at best, reducing that speed as battery voltage under load drops. It take no account of outside temperature, rider weight or gradient beyond its effect on battery voltage and component temperature. 

That just leaves battery voltage and component temperature as monitorable parameters that can generate warnings and, yes, you are correct, to ignore either one of those is to take a great risk and also possibly damage your wheel as well.

   In my trade the overload can be predicted.  It is calculated from may observations.  Low power, past demands ,temperature tracking and unexpected demands.  The computer can see that the temp is increasing and the battery power is dropping and the past demand curves would not be possible in the near future.  However if the temperature drops and the battery stays the same than everything is ok.  Is the battery too weak? No.  Is the temp too high? No.  Yet combined they might cause a problem. (Overload)  Again I work with large 60 h.p.  480 volt drives not unicycles.