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Did my V8 just shutoff on me??


CaptainKBLS
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I've been riding at night after I put the kids to sleep.  The road is mainly flat but is rated poorly by DMV.  It could be bumpy but I pretty much know where the rough spots are.

I was just enjoying the night as usual swerving left to right with average speed of 8.9mph.  I don't like to go fast (no gear).  Tonite was my worst fall ever.  It happened so fast and I'm pretty sure  my V8 SHUTOFF on me as I slowed in the approach to the stop sigh...because a car was coming to the three way stop intersection.

Of course I got a cool looking straight cut in the middle of the palm, small scrape on the knee and small cut on the pinky.  I was holding my bluetooth speaker on my left hand because I don't like to spook people at night when I approach them.  My phone in my right hand.

Lucky I recognize something was wrong in that light speed moment, jumped off and did a role on my back (awesome move!).  By trying to save my phone, I hurt my hand.

Shaken!!!  Doubting what just happened .....did I screw up?

Anyone else had the V8 shutoff on you??????????????????

The wife going to be mad tomorrow...here comes the bitching....ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by CaptainKBLS
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:shock2: Sorry to hear about this. I'm glad you are, for the most part, OK.

I'd be very interested to hear any follow up to this.

Did the wheel beep when it fell? Was it still alive when you picked it back up or was everything dead? I've not dropped mine yet to know how it reacts in a crash but I'm guessing if it shut off on you then it would be dead when you went to pick it up and there would have been no alarms as it/you fell.

Good luck with the wife. :efee96588e:

 

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Oh, sorry!  I just got back from an 8-mile night ride on my V8.  No issues, but that could just be dumb luck.  Hope you heal up fast and the spouse goes easy on you.  I didn't even tell mine after I crashed a regular bike and had to go to the ER for 12 stitches.  

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Was the front light switching off the last thing you noticed before the fall happened? When my ACM fried, this happened and stuck to my mind (because it was a night ride, it was immediately notable the light went out). So this is how you might identify a cut-out/wheel switch-off vs simply overleaning/loss of balancing due to an unlucky bump.

Does the wheel still work?

Edited by meepmeepmayer
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Wow! You guys are awesome.

Yes meepmeepmayer, that was exactly how it happened.  I notice the light went out first then the wheel went limp.  When I fell the wheel went bouncing several times.

I thought it was dead at that point when it had trouble coming on.  After several tries, it powered up and was able to get home.

I'm not sure what the problem is, it can't be over heating as I was probably below 9mph at around that instance.  Does that mean I can't enjoy a side to side ride on the street?  Is it driver error? 

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22 hours ago, radial said:

Oh, sorry!  I just got back from an 8-mile night ride on my V8.  No issues, but that could just be dumb luck.  Hope you heal up fast and the spouse goes easy on you.  I didn't even tell mine after I crashed a regular bike and had to go to the ER for 12 stitches.  

Wow radial, you went to ER with 12 stitches and didn't tell wife.  If I was the wife and found out, I'll whip you!  Mine saw the bandages but didn't ask what happened...hehehe...I'm not saying nothing!

Edited by CaptainKBLS
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22 minutes ago, CaptainKBLS said:

Wow radial, you went to ER with 12 stitches and didn't tell wife.  If I was the wife and found out, I'll whip you!  Mine saw the bandages but didn't ask what happened...hehehe...I'm not saying nothing!

I told her I "banged up my knee."  Totally true, if slightly incomplete.  

Edited by radial
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Sorry to hear that your wheel cut out.  Hopefully you will be a group two rider and don some protective gear.

Did you brake very hard?  How much do you weigh and was this on a downhill?  I wonder if you might have accidentally created a very large current spike triggering the BMS to shut down the battery pack.

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4 hours ago, CaptainKBLS said:

Wow! You guys are awesome.

Yes meepmeepmayer, that was exactly how it happened.  I notice the light went out first then the wheel went limp.  When I fell the wheel went bouncing several times.

I thought it was dead at that point when it had trouble coming on.  After several tries, it powered up and was able to get home.

I'm not sure what the problem is, it can't be over heating as I was probably below 9mph at around that instance.  Does that mean I can't enjoy a side to side ride on the street?  Is it driver error? 

At what level was the batterie, when that happened?

Your wheel still works, so it wasnt a mosfet or something else that burned...and as you say it needed some time to come up again!

So (with this informations until now) i would think of a batterie cell having a problem, perhaps having a massive voltagedrop and the shutoff resulting in BMS cutting the Power Off. After the batterie recovered the wheel works again.

 

Problem is, that this is all guessing.....and hard to find out the thruth. Check all connections in the wheel...if they are good there is not much left what can be the fault.

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1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Sorry to hear that your wheel cut out.  Hopefully you will be a group two rider and don some protective gear.

Did you brake very hard?  How much do you weigh and was this on a downhill?  I wonder if you might have accidentally created a very large current spike triggering the BMS to shut down the battery pack.

i believed there was this incident happened inside your EUC system. it happened to me once too. i believe that once you push your EUC for a very sudden brake (tilt back) or acceleration (quick forward tilt) , 1 second shut off would likely to occur on your wheel. As for me it was sudden acceleration and quarter seconds before I faceplant, I really felt there was no holding balance on the wheel which cause me to fell forward. 

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Well, definitely sounds like hardware failure (or switching off to protect the wheel) and not rider error, so don't blame yourself.

I have nothing to add to the tips from the others. You can open it up and wiggle some parts (careful not to short anything) while the wheel is balancing, but the battery/BMS theory is much more likely as it seems.

Also maybe ask your dealer.

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17 minutes ago, WaveCut said:

V8 has that dumb cell discharge protection, which cuts off when single cell is underdrawn

So this is different to other EUC's....i thought this time's where over, when a Batterie discharge protection goes over the safety of Driver...but seams Inmotion brought it back ;-)

@CaptainKBLS Like WaveCut said....you have to check and Change the bad cells, as this will happen again then.

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1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

So this is different to other EUC's....i thought this time's where over, when a Batterie discharge protection goes over the safety of Driver...but seams Inmotion brought it back ;-)

@CaptainKBLS Like WaveCut said....you have to check and Change the bad cells, as this will happen again then.

Thats the same with all other wheels except GW, which have no "protection" for the discharge side.

that problem arises only with older packs, or if one has bad luck and got a not so good cell from the manufacturer. Also this should (normally) start by the charger shutting off prematurely, because some of the good cells start to get overcharged. One could notice a shorter range and lower performance.

could be that the cells never got balanced (too low charger voltage or the charger never left plugged in long enough?)

the v8 also has "only" a 2p pack - so the cells age faster and get more burden - thats why i got my ks16 with a 4p pack, and by now they are not abailable anymore with less.

Edited by Chriull
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4 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Thats the same with all other wheels except GW, which have no "protection" for the discharge side.

that problem arises only with older packs, or if one has bad luck and got a not so good cell from the manufacturer. Also this should (normally) start by the charger shutting off prematurely, because some of the good cells start to get overcharged. One could notice a shorter range and lower performance.

could be that the cells never got balanced (too low charger voltage or the charger never left plugged in long enough?)

the v8 also has "only" a 2p pack - so the cells age faster and get more burden - thats why i got my ks16 with a 4p pack, and by now they are not abailable anymore with less.

Are you sure the V8 did not behave a Kind of "Special" by shutting down the wheel when ONE cell gets a massive voltdrop? That all other wheels do that when reaching a complete pack low voltage i know....

As far as i know, the V8 has a Special Connection from BMS to board, while i dont know what this Connection is doing.

Perhaps @WaveCut can say something more, as this was his Statement with: " that dumb cell discharge protection, which cuts off when single cell is underdrawn"

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2 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Are you sure the V8 did not behave a Kind of "Special" by shutting down the wheel when ONE cell gets a massive voltdrop? That all other wheels do that when reaching a complete pack low voltage i know....

As far as i know, the V8 has a Special Connection from BMS to board, while i dont know what this Connection is doing.

Perhaps @WaveCut can say something more, as this was his Statement with: " that dumb cell discharge protection, which cuts off when single cell is underdrawn"

Yes - that's something all BMS controllers do since "ever" - like the controller mentioned in http://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/2247-decrease-charging-time-5a-high-current-charger-mod/ for the ninebot e+ already had this "functionality". But this voltage threshold can be programmed and maybe is choosen too high from Inmotion?

 

But anyhow - a bad cell has to be replaced. With a working balancing this should only happen with a "very old" pack. Don't know if Inmotion wrote in their manual about the importance of balancing and maybe also checking the voltage in the app from time to time after a full charge - especially if the wheel starts to feel "weaker". Or as written before, the charging stops prematurely.

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1 minute ago, Chriull said:

With a working balancing this should only happen with a "very old" pack. Don't know if Inmotion wrote in their manual about the importance of balancing and maybe also checking the voltage in the app from time to time after a full charge - especially if the wheel starts to feel "weaker". Or as written before, the charging stops prematurely.

Hmmh...from my experience with 18650 i can not say that the charging should stop before....

I had a lot of 18650's in my dual or triple vaping devices which Charge all up nicely to the max of 4,2 Volt's...but when a Batterie goes bad it is often starting with that it cant take any high draw anymore, gets a big voltdrop and after a while recovers again to the Level of the others...

But who knows.....isn't the V8 using a 3200mah LG MH1 type cell which is not so often used by other brands like GW or KS? Perhaps this cell in the Long run isn't the best for EUC'S...

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@Chriull It happens from time to time in eastern european EUC community, because of fast acceleration or bumps on the road, and lasting battery. We think the reason is obvious - voltage drop after peak power drain on a 2P battery. Nothing new.

I have 3P mod, never caught this.

Edited by WaveCut
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29 minutes ago, Chriull said:

the v8 also has "only" a 2p pack - so the cells age faster and get more burden - thats why i got my ks16 with a 4p pack, and by now they are not abailable anymore with less.

Btw.: That's one Thing i registered right away on my "now true" 8p KS18S ....MUCH less voltdrop when leaning and accelerating hard. And with less voltdrop also: A fantastic low Batterie consumption for such a high powered wheel...

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4 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Btw.: That's one Thing i registered right away on my "now true" 8p KS18S ....MUCH less voltdrop when leaning and accelerating hard. And with less voltdrop also: A fantastic low Batterie consumption for such a high powered wheel...

That's another huge advantage of packs with many cells in parallel - each cell gets less current drawn! As you maybe know the dampfakku.de discharge graphs - the more current is drawn from a LiIon cell, the less real capacity it can provide.

I am really looking forward to the first Panasonic 20700B cells used in 2-4p packs - or even better cells like this until this will happen... ;)

Also on http://airwheel.ru/test-monokoles-na-dinostende/ is nicely seen how "cell quality" influences the wheels performance (V8 Vitaly vs. normal V8, ACM Litcher vs. ACM 680, KS18 680 vs KS18 1360, KS16 340 vs KS 16 840)

 

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6 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Could this be solved by "balancing" the cells (charging to 100% and keeping the charger in for a bit and then waiting a bit),

if each cell (cell pair) is and can be charged to 100% individually the problem is solved. Maybe just temporarly if there is a big capacity difference. Could be that the original charger is not anymore able to balance all cells to 100% - depends on the capabilities of the balancer circuit of the BMS.

6 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

or does this kind of behavior mean there's a definitely bad cell that must be replaced or it will happen again?

Maybe the cells were just never balanced and this was the reason that the cell voltages "drifted" too much apart. One real balancing and it could work fine again.

Maybe the cell is just at the end of the lifespan and has to be replaced - can imho not be said without some trial...

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Thank you all!

Since the fall, I've sorta been out of the ride and out of the forum.  So, the night before I had a full charge and went riding a bit.  Then i remember reading on the forum somewhere about toping off helping battery life so I recharge the next nite....also I accidently left charging over night.  Since you guys are talking about battery, I thought I'd mentioned this.  This is about the only thing that I've notice I've done different.

I just got this wheel mid April but have put over 500 miles already.  To me this is still brand new.  However, the kids and I have ridden this a bit so it takes an abuse and probably dropped a bit.  I had one incident early on where I went to fast and lost control and had to jump and the wheel went tumbling several times.  

If you guys think this could happen again is really scary....not for me but for the kids.  Maybe I won't have them ride it.

You guys seem like gurus to me.  I'm scared to even change the tire that Jason sent me.

How do I go about diagnosing to show I have a bad cell?

Edited by CaptainKBLS
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29 minutes ago, CaptainKBLS said:

 

I just got this wheel mid April but have put over 500 miles already.  To me this is still brand new.

This milage should be no probs, if the pack got balanced from time to time.

29 minutes ago, CaptainKBLS said:

 

How do I go about diagnosing to show I have a bad cell?

Whats the battery voltage the app shows after a full charge?

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