Kingsong King-F22 , the King of High Performance | 155.4V 20" 2738Wh 50S

[DavidB]

12 hours ago, techyiam said:

True, the Patton is no lighter, but the Patton is more responsive when you ride it. Plus the Patton is cheaper. For a lighter rider, or for someone who doesn't need the top speed, the Patton has its appeal. 

 

All good, valid points.

[PourUC]

As an S22 owner who only had a decent experience.

My dealer sent me the pro motor free of charge. (Edit: my dealer was eRides)

My motherboard has never bricked nor my BMS and I've washed it (with care and precaution) many times with a power washer.

It definitely is a DIY wheel, it comes apart easily and a lot of the design choices lend it to being easy and quick to work on. It's also worth noting that whilst Kingsong should have inspected the original motor better. It was a manufacturer fault and the T4 had the same issue.

 

As an S18 owner, I can understand why 4 smaller stanchions can be better than 2 larger ones. It brings the wheel width down and makes for a better more nimble wheel.

My main concern re suspension is that the F22 is going to lose the huge suspension travel. Although this might be mitigated by the stanchions being full body height.

As a Lynx owner, I don't think Kingsong will get anywhere close to the performance. They just seem so conservative on their motherboard builds. And the space shown for the motherboard looks tall but short. So unless they go with a stacked design. It's probably going to be bottle necked by a weak mobo and not be competitive to the Lynx.

Also, as a Lynx owner. This is not for me too late.

 

 

Edited May 10 by PourUC

[fbhb]

Some New details about how the F22 will be configured, although this was still a prototype/not ready for production model but way more polished/complete than what we have seen with earlier leaks. The biggest surprise, in this Voltride sneak preview video, being the battery architecture allowing for 176.4volts: 

 

Edited May 15 by fbhb

[Driftcycle]

Nice - first to suspension, first to 126 and now first to 176, say what you wish about kingsong but they always try to innovate 

[The Brahan Seer]

From the footage I think it looks really nice and I actually like the blue in moderation it has. Lets hope it's as structurally sound as it looks in the long run. 

Might be a good inbetweener wheel. 

[CrabChampion]

Looks much better than the initial leaks. Seems like the voltage arms race is continuing to keep going higher which I am not a big fan of. We are past the point of diminishing returns in terms of performance. Excited to see what this wheel has in store though

[Frolic0415]

176.4v is wild, keen to see what performance this has in real world riding

[onkeldanuel]

Yes ive hidden the post now , while looking at the configured bstterypacks it doesnt look like 4680, only before where bigger ones in the showed trays in the Video,  so wrong assumption most likely

Edited May 15 by onkeldanuel

[cegli]

7 minutes ago, onkeldanuel said:

Yes ive hidden the post now , while looking at the configured bstterypacks it doesnt look like 4680, only before where bigger ones in the showed trays in the Video,  so wrong assumption most likely

All good, I've hidden mine too to avoid confusion

Edited May 15 by cegli

[PourUC]

12 hours ago, Frolic0415 said:

176.4v is wild, keen to see what performance this has in real world riding

Won't be that powerful.

The main benefit is going to be that it will have lower current draw.

I recon it will be less powerful than the Lynx.

[noonewantstobepeterchris]

1 hour ago, PourUC said:

Won't be that powerful.

The main benefit is going to be that it will have lower current draw.

I recon it will be less powerful than the Lynx.

Why not? It’s complicated, but the battery voltage is a large part how much power it will have. It is not the only part of it, but it is part of it. Motor windings are part of it, the controller is part of it, even the firmware is part of it. Until we see all of those things out in the real world, we are just speculating.

[Stickysock]

6 hours ago, noonewantstobepeterchris said:

Why not? It’s complicated, but the battery voltage is a large part how much power it will have. It is not the only part of it, but it is part of it. Motor windings are part of it, the controller is part of it, even the firmware is part of it. Until we see all of those things out in the real world, we are just speculating.

The key factor is energy density. If we are consuming the same amount of space with the same battery specs, increasing voltage nets no benefit other than using smaller components and conductors. 

 

2400wh is 2400wh. Without a different chemistry there is absolutely a point of diminishing returns when it comes to high voltage.

 

Sacrificing capacity for higher voltage will eat into discharge capabilities. Keeping the voltage sag low becomes more important than having a high nominal voltage and vice versa.

[noonewantstobepeterchris]

3 hours ago, Stickysock said:

The key factor is energy density. If we are consuming the same amount of space with the same battery specs, increasing voltage nets no benefit other than using smaller components and conductors. 

 

2400wh is 2400wh. Without a different chemistry there is absolutely a point of diminishing returns when it comes to high voltage.

 

Sacrificing capacity for higher voltage will eat into discharge capabilities. Keeping the voltage sag low becomes more important than having a high nominal voltage and vice versa.

I am not sure what you are saying. How do you think they are going to get from 151 to 176 volts? Like, what is your understanding of the difference between the layout of the battery packs? Would you describe the ET max as having less power than the Lynx?

[Rawnei]

To reach more volts you need more cells, each cell is 4.2V, 151.2V pack is 36 cells, 176.4 pack is 42 cells, each cell is 70 grams, 6x70 = 420grams more per pack, then we also have space constraints since each pack will be physically bigger will be more difficult to design around larger packs.

Someone versed in electronics can probably elaborate on what is most effective voltage range for mosfets or other electronics, but at some point we are probably hitting diminishing returns and other factors become more apparent.

Then we can also consider that S22 is a 126V wheel that is weaker and slower than Sherman S which is a 100V wheel so there is room for King Song to simply design better controller using 126V system, just upping the voltage seems more like a clutch and marketing.

Who knows maybe it will be super strong and fast but focusing on this aspect alone doesn't tell much.

[The Brahan Seer]

2 hours ago, Rawnei said:

176.4 pack is 42 cells

In the vlog he states that they are using a new battery configuration. The one in question has a 4.4V cell. The packs are 40cells x 4.4 = 176V

You can see this in the footage. The advantage of these cells are greater range 5-10% more, and lighter. Although I couldn't find the exact specs on these cells used.

4.4V is frequently now being used in industry to increase range etc. Technically 3.85V Nominal.

I have also heard they are looking at different battery configurations and this is just one, 151V traditional batteries are still an option on the table.

 

[Rawnei]

19 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

In the vlog he states that they are using a new battery configuration. The one in question has a 4.4V cell. The packs are 40cells x 4.4 = 176V

You can see this in the footage. The advantage of these cells are greater range 5-10% more, and lighter. Although I couldn't find the exact specs on these cells used.

4.4V is frequently now being used in industry to increase range etc. Technically 3.85V Nominal.

I have also heard they are looking at different battery configurations and this is just one, 151V traditional batteries are still an option on the table.

 

So they're deviating a lot from tried and tested technology in EUC's, on one hand one can get excited but on the other hand knowing their track record implementing new technology it's healthy to be a bit cautious about it.

[PourUC]

18 hours ago, noonewantstobepeterchris said:

Why not? It’s complicated, but the battery voltage is a large part how much power it will have. It is not the only part of it, but it is part of it. Motor windings are part of it, the controller is part of it, even the firmware is part of it. Until we see all of those things out in the real world, we are just speculating.

My Nikola+ at 100v is more powerful than my S22 at 126v

power is current x voltage, so you can get more by increasing voltage but if you limit the total current to something anemic then you end up with a Nikola peaking at 9000W vs the S22 peaking at 6500W (as reported by EUC World) plus you can feel the difference too.

I imagine the F22 won't have some crazy motherboard redesign over the S22. They will try and mostly make up the power by just having more voltage.

[Rawnei]

15 minutes ago, PourUC said:

My Nikola+ at 100v is more powerful than my S22 at 126v

power is current x voltage, so you can get more by increasing voltage but if you limit the total current to something anemic then you end up with a Nikola peaking at 9000W vs the S22 peaking at 6500W (as reported by EUC World) plus you can feel the difference too.

I imagine the F22 won't have some crazy motherboard redesign over the S22. They will try and mostly make up the power by just having more voltage.

S22 has a lot more torque than a Nikola, specially if you have a Pro motor.

[Eucner]

9 hours ago, PourUC said:

power is current x voltage

You missed efficiency, which is function of speed and load.

[PourUC]

21 hours ago, Cam said:

Begode reported watt numbers aren’t the same as other manufacturers, and, AFAIK shouldn’t be taken too literally..

The difference in sensation is probably mostly due to the Nicolas smaller tire and lower pedals; making it easier to access torque.

Nah, hit a hill climb and you get peddle dip more easily on the S22.

It's a bunch of stuff (mainly the firmware) but the key part is that the S22 (until a very recent update) had 40A as a cutout point. The Nikola doesn't care and will rinse your batteries until they pop.

Now, it may be true that the S22 has higher peak power capability and the tire diameter makes the Nikola feel more powerful. But even if that is the case, one wheel is a 100v and the other is 126v.

Anywho, the S22 is weak for what it is. It's only now just getting there and I think that is kingsong minmaxing their underpowered mobo. Trying to find the very edge of what causes mosfets to pop.

[Rawnei]

19 minutes ago, PourUC said:

Nah, hit a hill climb and you get peddle dip more easily on the S22.

It's a bunch of stuff (mainly the firmware) but the key part is that the S22 (until a very recent update) had 40A as a cutout point. The Nikola doesn't care and will rinse your batteries until they pop.

Now, it may be true that the S22 has higher peak power capability and the tire diameter makes the Nikola feel more powerful. But even if that is the case, one wheel is a 100v and the other is 126v.

Anywho, the S22 is weak for what it is. It's only now just getting there and I think that is kingsong minmaxing their underpowered mobo. Trying to find the very edge of what causes mosfets to pop.

Lets stick to facts shall we?

If you look at the pull force test the stock S22 has more torque than a Nikola and that is WITH the 0RPM current limit that is in the S22 firmware.

The S22 Pro motor has substantially more torque than the S22 stock motor and S22 Pro have no problems hauling a 100kg+ rider up a steep slope.

[Augety]

2024 年 4 月 20 日晚上 9：05，Rawnei 说：

看起来有点过度设计的IMO。

F22独轮车目前似乎不是一个好产品，而且在LNYX方面，它比ET MAX更难骑。

[RagingGrandpa]

On 5/11/2016 at 10:26 AM, John Eucist said:

Forum Rules
English (and as "lingua franca") is the language used in this forum. If you cannot express what you want to say in English then use Google Translate first and paste the translated message into your topic or replies. This is better than having the majority of our members having to do it individually to read your message.

[Kingsong EUC]

On 5/16/2024 at 5:09 PM, The Brahan Seer said:

In the vlog he states that they are using a new battery configuration. The one in question has a 4.4V cell. The packs are 40cells x 4.4 = 176V

You can see this in the footage. The advantage of these cells are greater range 5-10% more, and lighter. Although I couldn't find the exact specs on these cells used.

4.4V is frequently now being used in industry to increase range etc. Technically 3.85V Nominal.

I have also heard they are looking at different battery configurations and this is just one, 151V traditional batteries are still an option on the table.

 

You are right,two choices

[Kingsong EUC]

The F22's motherboard has more capacitors relative to the S22 pro, no doubt about it.