Stance, body position - from aesthetic point

[Aztek]

There have been discussions on this forum about body position while riding. Most often about feet stance.

I want to bring up the upper body position, especially the hip flexing and forward leaning.

Don't you find the leaning and/or bringing the bottom back (hip flexing) rather ridiculous, uncool, even ugly position of riding?  Have you noticed that even experienced riders seem as toddlers in uncertain position, hands spread, about to imminently fall?

I just can't let myself ride this way. So what about you? What do you think?

Edited March 18 by Aztek

[rcgldr]

4 hours ago, Aztek said:

hip flexing and forward leaning.

That's mostly done with power pads to generate more torque for aggressive acceleration or high speed. The youtuber's don't do this at moderate speeds.

 

[Mono]

10 hours ago, Aztek said:

There have been discussions on this forum about body position while riding. Most often about feet stance.

I want to bring up the upper body position, especially the hip flexing and forward leaning.

Yes, unless it's considered competitive sports which it is not for me.

10 hours ago, Aztek said:

Don't you find the leaning and/or bringing the bottom back (hip flexing) rather ridiculous, uncool, even ugly position of riding?

Yes, unless riding a steep decline or backwards.

10 hours ago, Aztek said:

 Have you noticed that even experienced riders seem as toddlers in uncertain position, hands spread, about to imminently fall?

I just can't let myself ride this way. So what about you? What do you think?

I keep my upper body mostly upright like this

              00~   00~   00~        
        00~    |     |    _|    00~
         |    /|    /|     |    _| 
        /|     /     /    //   __| 
         /_    \\    \    \    \   
           O    O    O    O    O   
 

 

 

Edited March 18 by Mono

[Stickysock]

I go full Naruto for aggressive acceleration.

I use more hips and waist for idling, tricks, 180s etc.

[rcgldr]

On 3/18/2024 at 7:22 AM, rcgldr said:

That's mostly done with power pads to generate more torque for aggressive acceleration or high speed. The youtuber's don't do this at moderate speeds.

 

Example video:

 

[Aztek]

31 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

Example video:

 

Yes, I know. Looks ridiculous.

Edited March 23 by Aztek

[Cerbera]

3 hours ago, Aztek said:

Yes, I know. Looks ridiculous.

It looks pretty silly in a photo. Live in real life the speed and motion add cool points the photos can't convey...

Not everyone can pull off 'the Superman'. But there definitely ARE people that make it look cool.

Hell, there are even people who have managed to make sitting down look heroic !

Not me tho - I look like I'm having a difficult shit.

Edited March 23 by Cerbera

[rcgldr]

14 hours ago, Aztek said:

Yes, I know. Looks ridiculous.

For the high speed riders, there' s no choice due to wind drag and the amount of torque required to go that fast:

 

Edited March 24 by rcgldr

[Aztek]

1 hour ago, rcgldr said:

For the high speed riders, there' s no choice due to wind drag and the amount of torque required to go that fast:

Yes, makes sense - riding top speeds on EUC is not only stupid but ugly as well

[rcgldr]

On 3/18/2024 at 3:07 AM, Aztek said:

Don't you find the leaning and/or bringing the bottom back (hip flexing) rather ridiculous, uncool, even ugly position of riding?

A lot of riders will use hip flexing to "sit down" while braking. Extreme example, EUC Girl on an EUC that weighs about the same as her:

 

[Aztek]

6 hours ago, rcgldr said:

flexing to "sit down" while braking.

No, I mean the uncertain butt back hands up on the sides, chin ahead, clumsy "in constant process/risk of falling" stance we see all too often while riding, not during breaking. Just like toddler leaning ahead and not falling just as long and because they are running clumsily in the general ahead direction.

In the other such activities people tend to start moving efficiently and elegantly when gaining experience. In EUC riding this is often not the case for long long time, or forever.

Edited March 25 by Aztek

[Ronin Ryder]

Another way to ride that is not michael Jackson lean,courtesy of @houseofjob.  I do try to apply this technique for my riding. 

 

Edited March 25 by Ronin Ryder

[rcgldr]

On 3/25/2024 at 8:06 AM, Ronin Ryder said:

Another way to ride ... soft mode

Almost all of the youtubers use hard mode for smooth paved surfaces. What soft mode does is delay the response to rider inputs while the EUC is tilting. For off road riding, the delay in medium mode will allow an EUC to tilt a bit in response to riding over bumps and dips, instead of instantly responding with acceleration or braking, resulting in a smoother ride over bumpy surfaces. There is very little gain in leverage due to pedal tilt, 1/cos(tilt angle): for a 5° tilt, the increase in leverage is only 0.382%, for a 10° tilt, 1.543%. The delay associated with soft mode can be an issue at higher speeds and is why an Inmotion V13 reduces top speed from 52 mph (GPS) to 33 mph (GPS) if pedal hardness is set to 0% (soft mode). 

The video mentions pressing with heels to initiate a forwards lean as if it was something different than normal riding, but it is how any rider initiates a forward lean on an EUC or if standing on solid ground. To clarify, the initial input is a backwards torque exerted onto an EUC to cause the EUC to decelerate from under the rider, leaning the rider forwards, and once leaned forwards, the rider exerts a forwards torque onto the EUC, and the motor will exert the same amount of forwards torque onto the wheel + tire to accelerate and balance the rider in a leaned position.

Edited March 26 by rcgldr

[Aztek]

That's interesting indeed. There guy is not assuming the typical positions I mentioned above. He's moving a bit like riding a bicycle while standing. Not sure this is very efficient, but he likes it.

I've always ridden in hard mode, as I felt more in control, but recently started experimenting with medium mode on my unpleasantly heavy bg master.

 

 

[Aztek]

23 hours ago, rcgldr said:

The video mentions pressing with heels to initiate a forwards lean as if it was something different than normal riding

It is paradoxical. Pressing the heels stops the wheel. After pressing the front of the pedals moves it forward. It is some jerking movement, only it isn't purely because of the sheer weight and inertia of the veteran.

[rcgldr]

8 hours ago, Aztek said:

It is paradoxical. Pressing the heels stops the wheel. After pressing the front of the pedals moves it forward.

A rider has to lean in the desired direction of acceleration, and on an EUC, this is done by initially having the EUC accelerate in the opposite direction. You can also consider the torque similar to Newton 3rd law pair. In order for a rider to lean forwards, the EUC has to exert a forwards torque onto the rider (assuming rider is not out of balance and gravity is pulling the rider down and forwards), the EUC exerting a forwards torque onto the rider coexists with the rider exerting a backwards torque onto the EUC. Getting back to leaning, to accelerate forwards, the EUC has to be decelerated behind the rider to lean the rider forwards, and vice versa for braking. To lean inwards for a turn, initially the EUC needs to turn outwards from under the rider to lean the rider inwards. Once leaned, the EUC is tilted more to lean less, tilted less to lean more, all of which are variations of counter-steering. This is mostly automatic, when a rider attempts to lean in one direction, the rider is exerting a torque onto the EUC in the opposite direction.

[Asphalt]

@houseofjob's soft mode technique evolved during an era (Gotway Monster V1) when EUCs were easily over-powered.
It was dangerous to do a superman lean because your body's centre of gravity was so far in front of the wheel that it was very difficult to recover balance once the wheel was over-powered.
The "bounce" facilitated by soft mode, choreographed with lateral shifting and wheel tilt, allowed the rider greater leverage on the pedals while keeping their centre of gravity over the wheel, from which over-power scenarios could easily be recovered. 

Riders of this era developed some pretty unique riding styles to maximize safe acceleration. Check out @Tishawn Fahie

As EUCs became larger, heavier, and more powerful, they became more difficult to over-power, but also became harder to accelerate (and decelerate).
Lean pads / power pads became popular as a way to increase the rider's leverage on the wheel with their shins and knees, as opposed to feet alone.
Pads promote the superman lean technique. It can be argued whether or not this technique is safe, but there's a reason why knee guards are currently so popular.

I personally prefer riding with a technique that doesn't require accessories like velcro, lean pads, and the safety equipment to compensate.

 

 

[rcgldr]

5 hours ago, Asphalt said:

greater leverage on the pedals while keeping their center of gravity over the wheel, from which over-power scenarios could easily be recovered. 

If a rider is accelerating forwards, then the center of gravity has to be in front of the tire's contact patch in order for the rider to be balanced. The angle of overall lean is equal to the inverse tangent of the rate of acceleration in terms of g (acceleration divided by 1 g = 32.174 feet / sec^2 = 9.8066 meter / sec ^2). This is true for forwards | backwards | left | right accelerations. If the EUC is powerful enough, then without pads, maximum forwards acceleration requires that the center of force be as close to the front of the pedals as possible. The leverage on the pedals is limited to half the length of the pedals. Power pads increase the leverage to the distance from the pedals to the pads, but the pads restrict how far forwards a rider's shins can be leaned, and if accelerating forwards aggressively, the riders' shins are against the pads and the rider has to bend forwards at the hips. 

Soft mode became less soft as EUC speeds increased because the soft mode delay interferes with the EUC's self-balancing reaction time. 

An EUC only detects a net torque from the rider, pressing with heel one pedal and toe on the other pedal does nothing in terms of acceleration. As I posted earlier, if the rider is not changing lean angle, then the rider is exerting the same same torque onto the EUC that the EUC motor is exerting onto the wheel + tire (otherwise, the EUC frame would be rotating). Soft mode allows the torques to be a bit out of balance to allow the EUC to tilt forwards or backwards, but once the change in tilt angle stops, then it's back to rider torque = motor torque. 

Edited March 27 by rcgldr

[litewave]

On 3/24/2024 at 3:38 AM, rcgldr said:

For the high speed riders, there' s no choice due to wind drag and the amount of torque required to go that fast:

 

 

Not a good video to use as an example.

1. She is using a helmet with a visor (duck bill), which adds a lot of drag.

2. She frequently sticks her right arm out to check her phone?/GPS?/whatever adding more drag. We so need reliable and affordable integrated HUD displays on helmet windscreens.

3. She is holding an actioncam (likely an insta360) with selfie stick which requires a lot of body microcontrol movements to stay balanced.

4. She is standing. Seated riding allows for a compact tuck and lower profile which reduces drag.

 

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, litewave said:

She frequently sticks her right arm out to check her phone?/GPS?/whatever adding more drag. We so need reliable and affordable integrated HUD displays on helmet windscreens.

3. She is holding an actioncam (likely an insta360) with selfie stick which requires a lot of body microcontrol movements to stay balanced.

I'm not sure that 'arms out', superman stylee, does introduce more drag does it ? Arms by sides is a bigger area of 'brickwall' for oncoming air isn't it ? I do it sometimes on the Master and don't notice much additional drag when I do, though I definitely can catch any crosswind more.

And she needs that right arm out to balance the long selfie pole in her left hand and to monitor speed / pwm etc...

And I think she has to stand because she can't get enough ride authority / forward push into that big heavy wheel whilst seated. 

She does quite well to maintain that speed for as long as she does with all that going on...

Edited March 27 by Cerbera

[Stickysock]

On 3/27/2024 at 7:56 AM, Asphalt said:

@houseofjob's soft mode technique evolved during an era (Gotway Monster V1) when EUCs were easily over-powered.
It was dangerous to do a superman lean because your body's centre of gravity was so far in front of the wheel that it was very difficult to recover balance once the wheel was over-powered.
The "bounce" facilitated by soft mode, choreographed with lateral shifting and wheel tilt, allowed the rider greater leverage on the pedals while keeping their centre of gravity over the wheel, from which over-power scenarios could easily be recovered. 

Riders of this era developed some pretty unique riding styles to maximize safe acceleration. Check out @Tishawn Fahie

As EUCs became larger, heavier, and more powerful, they became more difficult to over-power, but also became harder to accelerate (and decelerate).
Lean pads / power pads became popular as a way to increase the rider's leverage on the wheel with their shins and knees, as opposed to feet alone.
Pads promote the superman lean technique. It can be argued whether or not this technique is safe, but there's a reason why knee guards are currently so popular.

I personally prefer riding with a technique that doesn't require accessories like velcro, lean pads, and the safety equipment to compensate.

 

 

Your user name explains your adversion to pads, one mtb trail . Also I dont see how ANYONE can emergency stop without pads to torque the wheel. I dont consider pads an accessory or compensation. Riding without pads on these faster wheels is argubly unsafe.

[Asphalt]

1 hour ago, Stickysock said:

Also I dont see how ANYONE can emergency stop without pads to torque the wheel. I dont consider pads an accessory or compensation. 

There was a time before pads where it required riding skill to emergency stop and torque a wheel.

[Aztek]

8 hours ago, Stickysock said:

Also I dont see how ANYONE can emergency stop without pads to torque the wheel.

One of the biggest problems - pads or no pads, EUCs stop poorly (although with pads it's better). If they were stopping more efficiently, on the other hand, we would be regularly flying and landing face down.

Once I found myself jumping off the wheel, squatting and holding it with both hands to save an elderly gentleman nonchalantly stepping on the bike lane infront of me,  looking in the other direction. He didn't notice the heroic act at all

Anyways, this was a kingsong 16xs - 20kg. Probably can't be done with 40kg master, riding faster.

So, we better have in mind that the emergency braking with EUCs is not braking at all, but merely slowing down and not really an abrupt one.

Edited March 29 by Aztek

[rcgldr]

7 hours ago, Asphalt said:

There was a time before pads where it required riding skill to emergency stop and torque a wheel.

At that time, EUCs were not as heavy or had as much power or speed. The rider has to exert as much torque onto the EUC as the motor exerts onto the wheel+ tire, otherwise the EUC frame would rotate. If using pedals only, the torque is limited due to the physics that the center of force on the pedals can't go past either end of the pedals. With power pads, the rider can exert more torque onto the EUC: if accelerating, a rider can bend at the hips and extend arms forward to further move the center of mass ahead of the tire contact patch. If braking, the rider can bend at the knees and lean or sit backwards to move the center of mass well behind the tire contact patch.

 

Edited March 29 by rcgldr

[Mike Sacristan]

On 3/18/2024 at 11:07 AM, Aztek said:

There have been discussions on this forum about body position while riding. Most often about feet stance.

I want to bring up the upper body position, especially the hip flexing and forward leaning.

Don't you find the leaning and/or bringing the bottom back (hip flexing) rather ridiculous, uncool, even ugly position of riding?  Have you noticed that even experienced riders seem as toddlers in uncertain position, hands spread, about to imminently fall?

I just can't let myself ride this way. So what about you? What do you think?

I agree. Hinging at the hip is ugly. A lot of riders block their dorsiflexion with pads.
Using a softer pedal mode helps acceleration by tilting the rider and wheel forward. Input delay or not.
And soft modes at high speed are no longer as dangerous as they were in the olden days on weak wheels.

The hip hinge should stay equal to or less than the knee bend.