We need moped class EUCs!

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

I am not at all sure that is true for 25km/h EUCs too because danger has a pretty tight relation with speed

Tell you what, I'll even disregard speed, it's simply far easier to have a fall on an EUC than a bicycle. The single contact patch and an upright stance directly above that contact patch is not conducive to stability. The total loss of control following any malfunction just adds to the risk.

That said, I can see I'm on my own here, so I'll bow out gracefully on the 'which is safer' discussion now guys!

[techyiam]

56 minutes ago, Planemo said:

it's simply far easier to have a fall on an EUC than a bicycle. The single contact patch and an upright stance directly above that contact patch is not conducive to stability. The total loss of control following any malfunction just adds to the risk.

I would agree with you if I were riding my a V12 or an Abrams, or on most non-suspension wheel. Or, for a rider without enough experience.

On my S22, I find that if I were riding as slow as I would on a bicycle, I don't find I would be more prone to crashing when riding on city streets or bike paths. The S22 has great braking, and I can make emergency directional changes to avoid accidents. I am speaking from actual experience. There are cars that blow stop signs or red lights. They are rare, but if you ride enough, it can happen. And at higher speeds, I would say it would be less prone to crashing than a typical bicycle, since many bicycles are not stable at higher speeds, nor are the brakes that great. Having said that, it will require more skill and experience to ride sufficiently safe on an euc. The one scenario which puts euc's at a disadvantage to a bicycle is when one is riding under bumpy slippery conditions. And this is where my S22 can even the odds.

Regarding malfunctions leading to crashing, I haven't experienced one case yet, and this includes over 9000 km's on my V12, and over 9000 km's on my Abrams, both or which are considered cut-out wheels out-of-the-box. I am not saying it won't happen, I am saying it can be mitigated to a very low odd. I also have over 9000 km's on my T3, and there haven't been any malfunctions that led to a crash. Actually, the T3 has a very reliable motor drive system. It just keeps on ticking.

Edited January 6 by techyiam

[Cerbera]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

Even disregarding the heaviness, EUC crashes are 2 a penny. Bicycle crashes aren't. Hell, even within our own community many folk say 'it's not if, it's when'. You simply don't get that sort of suggestion in bicycle communities unless you're a hardcore downhiller and even then, serious injuries are pretty few and far between.

People just don't get on bikes assuming they are going to crash, at any point. Conversely, it seems to be a right of passage in the EUC world.

I think the perceived inevitability of EUC crashes is largely related to the much steeper learning curve of EUCs. The inherent stability of 2 wheels means there is double the margin for error that we get, but bikes are as vulnerable to potholes and certain other hazards as we are, and we do regularly hear about people falling off bikes, both pedal and motorcycles. I suspect the lack of the 'you will fall eventually' attitude is a sin of omission from the bicycle forums - if you ride one of those for a year, you'll come off it at least once, I reckon ! My uncle (who is a little on the aged side admittedly) has been a county level competitive road cyclist with decades of XP, but still came off and broke his arm the other day. I bought him elbow / wrist guards for Xmas !

Now I too have fallen this year (OK, last year I should say !), and faster, and with far more impact than he did (45 kph into a stationary car no less !), but I was geared up to the nuts, and consequently unhurt - so what was more dangerous there ? He had to go to hospital; ambulance and everything, police involved, the works and tying up lots of health service (not to mention his own) time - I got up, dusted down my machine, shook hands with the driver who had just pulled out in front of me, and we both carried on our merry ways ! Cyclists don't expect to fall, and so their gear is pathetic, and they can hurt themselves when they do ! Perhaps the 'no-mention-of-fall-inevitability' on bike forums is accepted to the point where it is no longer worthy of mention ? People have been cycling for a very long time now, and most of them have fallen off at one point or other... and of course the opposite is true of us lot - 10 years ago, we were unheard of as were the machines we ride - of course there will be more accidents initially whilst we all discover them, and find their limits, which, let's face it, we are constantly pushing (as a community) in a way that cyclists (generally) aren't, and haven't been for years.

If we get past that stage, and know the limits, then I reckon crash rates will be much more comparable, and generally speaking, we'll come out of them better because we spend all our time warning ourselves, gearing up to the bollocks and being constantly vigilant to the possibility ! A reasonable case, perhaps, for us being considered the MORE careful and aware of the 2 groups of riders dare I say ?!

I agree there is much less chance of crashing on a bike as you learn, in those first few sessions and after, when you first try the wheel on all sorts of new and increasingly challenging terrain, but once you know what you're doing, and know your machine well enough I'd say the risk of crashing is about the same as our dual wheel counterparts. I have 7 years riding XP behind me, and I never once leave the house expecting to crash, and the vast majority of the time I'm right, and I don't !

 

 

Edited January 6 by Cerbera

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Tell you what, I'll even disregard speed, it's simply far easier to have a fall on an EUC than a bicycle.

Under this criterion, you probably would consider a skateboard more dangerous than an EUC?

 

[Funky]

Bicycle is 100% safer than EUC. Simple as that. EUC stops working you face plant.. Bicycle stops working - nothing happens. That one fact is enough.

One wheel device, where electronics are keeping you from ground will always be more risky to ride. Doesn't mater how fast you go. And road condition.. Same time you can't compare it going over unseen pothole and things like that. EUC will crash a lot more than bicycle.

 

If electronics weren't holding me up from ground.. Then EUC vs Bicycle = same to me.

[Cerbera]

50 minutes ago, Funky said:

Bicycle is 100% safer than EUC. Simple as that. EUC stops working you face plant.. Bicycle stops working - nothing happens. That one fact is enough.

One wheel device, where electronics are keeping you from ground will always be more risky to ride. Doesn't mater how fast you go. And road condition.. Same time you can't compare it going over unseen pothole and things like that. EUC will crash a lot more than bicycle.

 

If electronics weren't holding me up from ground.. Then EUC vs Bicycle = same to me.

That argument would hold water for me if bicycles didn't have parts that occasionally fall off them, not limited to wheels, buckled frames, pedals, chains and god knows what else they are made of, and some of these departures have as a great an effect upon them as electronic cutouts have on us ! You ain't getting away with it if you came off a jump, and bent your front wheel in half !  THEY can mitigate their issues by tightening bolts etc - we get the same level of reliability by riding within our safe margins, and if we do that our electronics are very bloody unlikely to fail...

 

Edited January 6 by Cerbera

[Funky]

18 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

That argument would hold water for me if bicycles didn't have parts that occasionally fall off them, not limited to wheels, buckled frames, pedals, chains and god knows what else they are made of, and some of these departures have as a great an effect upon them as electronic cutouts have on us ! You ain't getting away with it if you came off a jump, and bent your front wheel in half !  THEY can mitigate their issues by tightening bolts etc - we get the same level of reliability by riding within our safe margins, and if we do that our electronics are very bloody unlikely to fail...

 

And somehow over 15 years riding my bicycle. I can count only on my one hand how many times i have fallen.. Two hands if i count also winter slides/falls.. And i have always gotten up and continued riding. And that's without any gear at all in those 15 years. (Not taking into mind about "loosing parts".. I have never thought about that while riding bicycle. - That's just stupid in my mind.)  

Compared to EUC. I have ridden only 3 years. But i doubt i will be that lucky.. Especially if my EUC "electronics" suddenly die without any warnings, while i'm going what ever speed that moment.

 

Even flat tire.. Bicycle - slowly stop. EUC - I don't know.. Faceplant? Also slow stop? Somehow i think not..

Edited January 6 by Funky

[Robse]

You can discuss this ad infinitum, and in this you cannot escape the fact that bicycles are also involved in accidents.  But 99,9999 % of these accidents are caused either by the cyclist himself, or by another road user that overlooks the cyclist.  Bikes don't fall apart or suddenly lose a wheel.  And even if you have a suddenly puncture, you will not fall off.  Unfortunately, there are guaranteed to be +10000000 (just a big numer ;-) ) times as many people cycling as riding EUC, and therefore there are also +10000000 times as many idiots on the roads on that account - and therefore it may appear as if bicycles are also dangerous - but they are not. As @Funky points out; our wheels are nothing without battery power and a working controller.  Where I live, all bicycles have 2 brakes, which by the way do not require electricity to operate. An EUC only has one, and only if there is power. 

My biggest fear when riding on the EUC is not to do something wrong myself so that I have an accident, no,  it is precisely that the electronics fail.  When i ride out on my magic flying carpet, I'm kept balanced by the invisible magic of gyroscopes, magnetometers, mosfets and batteries.  If they die, they take me down with them. No mercy.

Edited January 6 by Robse

[Funky]

26 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

THEY can mitigate their issues by tightening bolts etc - we get the same level of reliability by riding within our safe margins, and if we do that our electronics are very bloody unlikely to fail...

 

That alone is so very wrong!!!! Like come one. It doesn't matter how fast you ride, or save. Take dozen wheel owner Marty for reference and A2 incident..

Wheel shutting off out of blue? It can happen any moment if you think about it. You have ridden your master 3 years without any problems, but one day it dies.. Half baked software update is all you need.

Edited January 6 by Funky

[Cerbera]

47 minutes ago, Funky said:

That alone is so very wrong!!!! Like come one. It doesn't matter how fast you ride, or save. Take dozen wheel owner Marty for reference and A2 incident..

It totally does matter how fast you ride, and how you lean into it to get the upper speeds ! And the Marty incident comparison unfair, as it is about as rare in the EUC world as a wheel falling off a bicycle is in theirs !! Until last year it was unheard of for an EUC to fail in this way by powering itself down.

52 minutes ago, Funky said:

but one day it dies.. Half baked software update is all you need.

That's one reason I don't update firmware that is already working how I want it to ! I realise electronics degrade and break eventually, and it is a risk we are all aware of, but I still think we're overstating it. 

But hey, I don't need to die on this hill, everyone thinks and weighs risk a bit differently, and I am not trying to convince anyone - just sharing how it seems to me....

[null]

52 minutes ago, Funky said:

Bicycle stops working - nothing happens. That one fact is enough.

You are way too sure of yourself.
My brother broke a rib because his bike "stopped working". The brake jammed and he flew over the handlebar.
So there is that.

I'm absolutely not convinced a bicycle is necessarily safer than a EUC, but I'm not parading my beliefs like they were facts. Neither of us have anything but beliefs and assumptions to bring to the table. There are no stats, and even less normalized ones.

Edited January 6 by null

[Funky]

Just now, Cerbera said:

It totally does matter how fast you ride, and how you lean into it to get the upper speeds ! And the Marty incident comparison unfair, as it is about as rare in the EUC world as a wheel falling off a bicycle is in theirs !! Until last year it was unheard of for an EUC to fail in this way by powering itself down.

Speed doesn't matter yo me, because i never go faster than 40km/h. So i can't talk about upper speeds.

You only know that - because it happened to some guy on youtube.. So don't talk as it's so rare. (Even i know it's rare - but how many cases are being talked vs not talked ones..) Also take into mind 1000 bikes vs 1 euc in real world - the numbers of how many devices are there in wild.

Just now, Cerbera said:

That's one reason I don't update firmware that is already working how I want it to ! I realise electronics degrade and break eventually, and it is a risk we are all aware of, but I still think we're overstating it. 

I do the same - i'm still on v2.03 out of the box one.

5 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

But hey, I don't need to die on this hill, everyone thinks and weighs risk a bit differently, and I am not trying to convince anyone - just sharing how it seems to me....

Yup and in my eyes EUC is way more dangerous. It can even burn my home down while it's sitting there.. Compared to my bicycle - it's just collecting dust no danger of fire at all. 

[Funky]

51 minutes ago, null said:

You are way too sure of yourself.
My brother broke a rib because his bike "stopped working". The brake jammed and he flew over the handlebar.
So there is that.

I'm absolutely not convinced a bicycle is necessarily safer than a EUC, but I'm not parading my beliefs like they were facts. Neither of us have anything but beliefs and assumptions to bring to the table. There are no stats, and even less normalized ones.

Euc can burn down houses, regular bicycle not - belief or fact?

Euc fall can get you hurt way more serious than bicycle fall if not geared - belief or fact?

Public transport - i don't put passengers in any ganger by bringing  bicycle onboard. Where bringing EUC onboard could get passengers badly hurt or even worse - false or fact?

What else hmm.. Euc have a expiration date, bicycle not really - belief or fact? (Sure bicycle also can have those, but wear/tear shows it's time to change parts.. EUC - not really.) Belief or fact?

 

It's a fact not belief.. Ask any "normie" walking down the road, they will tell you the same. 

Edited January 6 by Funky

[Robse]

11 minutes ago, null said:

 

You are way too sure of yourself. My brother broke a rib because his bike stopped working. The brake jammed and he flew over the handlebar. So there is that.

Now that I myself ride more than 10,000 km a year on a bicycle, I am of course very curious to know how that brake (front brake I assume) could jam. Brakes are designed to prevent accidental locking. I have never yet seen a brake block, unless it was completely poorly maintained, or possibly someting got caught (a branch or a wire).

[null]

1 hour ago, Robse said:

unless it was completely poorly maintained, or possibly someting got caught (a branch or a wire).

Whatever the reason (which I dont know), the bike "stopped working" and threw off the rider, so yes, that possibility exists. There are various things that can fail and throw you off on a bike. Just because they are unlikely doesn't make them not exist, as Funky was claiming.

edit: Once again none of use has more than speculations, so I will stop participating here, having said what I had to day. But claiming your suppositions as hard facts is really in bad taste.

edited in "throwing off" which was the core point. Funky was claiming that a bike that "stopped working" would lead to "nothing happens".

Edited January 6 by null

[Robse]

6 minutes ago, null said:

Whatever the reason, the bike "stopped working", so yes, that possibility exists.

ok i see, everything can stop working for whatever reason, so as long as we dont posess reliable data and stats, everything is equal dangerous and/or not.

[null]

10 minutes ago, Robse said:

ok i see, everything can stop working for whatever reason, so as long as we dont posess reliable data and stats, everything is equal dangerous and/or not.

I'm not sure if you're here for snark but you might have seen that I was reacting to the fact that Funky was claiming that if a bicycle "stopped working" it would lead to "nothing happens". I'm not huffing my own regarding which is statistically more dangerous, in fact I stated my belief as just that. 

I dont see where I claimed that lacking reliable data everything was equally dangerous, could you quote me @Robse?

Edited January 7 by null

[Funky]

And yet there are some things more dangerous than others.. Both things can be dangerous same time, one more dangerous than other..

Riding car you fell most relax as you are sitting in comfy seat and listening to some toons on radio and have a metal/carbon box surrounding oneself. So naturally you feel the safest. Yet car accidents especially fast one are most deadly and most chaotic. Same for hitting a pedestrian with car are way worse compared to bicycle or euc.

Any thing can be dangerous even walking you can slip and never wake up..

 

My "belief" is that EUC is right-out more dangerous. And most people would say the same.. Making it more than a belief - a fact.

Everyone can belief what they want.. For me it's a fact. Not a belief.  (Fires.. Electronics.. Worries it will stop working.. On bicycle i have zero worries.)

Edited January 7 by Funky

[Robse]

2 minutes ago, null said:

I'm not sure if you're here for snark but you might have seen that I was reacting to the fact that Funky was claiming that if a bicycle "stopped working" it would lead to "nothing happens". I'm not huffing my own regarding which is statistically more dangerous, in fact I stated my belief as just that.

nono, no "snarking" here   ,  i did not see your edited post before now, and my point is just that i find EUC more dangerous than bicycles primary because of the electronics that keeps the rider balanced.   And so I was actually quite honestly interested in knowing what caused your brother's brakes to jam - I repair and maintain several bikes, so I'm curious about that kind of knowledge.

[null]

33 minutes ago, Robse said:

nono, no "snarking" here   ,  i did not see your edited post before now, and my point is just that i find EUC more dangerous than bicycles primary because of the electronics that keeps the rider balanced.   And so I was actually quite honestly interested in knowing what caused your brother's brakes to jam - I repair and maintain several bikes, so I'm curious about that kind of knowledge.

Thanks, I had to edit to make it extra clear because things get lost so fast.
The only thing I was there for is to refute the claim that bicycles fail to safety.

for the 2c: I believe that while EUCs can have cutouts due to board failure, these are so rare that they dont make a significant difference compared to bicycles unlikely failures, and especially when mixing in all other various risks of riding, including traffic where my opinion is that EUCs have security benefits from being agile, reactive and compact. Again, these are just my suppositions, I dont claim holding any fundamental truth.

My brother had changed his brake pads recently (some sort of H shaped system, dont know how it's called). They didn't brake very well until suddenly downhill the front wheel got stuck so hard he flew over the handlebar. His bike nerd friend inspected the bike afterward and couldn't find the reason. You could claim user error (a user error that doesn't exist on EUCs) but it doesn't change that bikes dont necessarily land you safely if failing. Production errors can also happen, even if statistically rare.

Anyhow, done here, all best  

edit: For the thread: I'd want a moped class for PEVs so I can ride up to 45km/h legally. A class above again would also be nice for the long term.

Edited January 7 by null

[xiiijojjo]

I guess I'm gonna have to drive without a license then because ain't no way I'm paying insurance or anything past the initial cost of the EUC, and with as fast as they are getting good luck catching up to pull me over 

[Mono]

Officially derailed 

13 hours ago, Robse said:

ok i see, everything can stop working for whatever reason, so as long as we dont posess reliable data and stats, everything is equal dangerous and/or not.

If you only would have ended with, "we can't possibly know which is more" instead of "everything is equally" dangerous

13 hours ago, null said:

I believe that while EUCs can have cutouts due to board failure, these are so rare that they dont make a significant difference compared to bicycles unlikely failures, and especially when mixing in all other various risks of riding, including traffic

That was my thought too.

At this point in time, nobody can possibly know how safe or unsafe riding an EUC is in comparison to walking, cycling or motorcycling, AFAICS. Not only do we need data of the accidents, we also need data for the mileages and not only from these few riders who show off as role models in the public. The other aspect is that cycling and riding a moped have quite different risks and the risks also vary significantly between different counties and both may be true for different usages of EUCs too.

I have seen many broken bones over the past 8 years and it feels like I would not expect to see this many from cycling. On the other hand, downhill mountain biking is about 100 times(!) more dangerous than casual cycling, and for a "fair" comparison we would need to compare the situation where riders didn't learn to cycle when they were kids.

Source: https://chessintheair.com/the-risk-of-dying-doing-what-we-love

Edited January 7 by Mono