We need moped class EUCs!

[UniVehje]

With ever increasing speed and power on our beloved vehicles along with future restrictions on them, we need to speak on classifications. 

There are different standards in different areas but common to all areas are classes for e-bikes (and e-scooters), moped and motorcycles. 

Unfortunately, the time of unregulated riding is coming to an end soon. At some point the official classification will matter. Most of the latest releases are clearly in the motorcycle class and that can be a problem for those of us who ride on bike lanes (Europe). A large section of riders don't benefit from increasing top speeds as they keep using their wheels at moped speeds. (I believe there's also a market for e-bike class wheels but those people are not on this forum.)

E-bike class:

• max 1000W and max 25 km/h, no registration, no insurance etc. 
• Only some older wheels would fit here. V5F, KS 14S, Ninebot S2 etc.

Moped class:

• Max 4000 W power, max 45-50 km/h, registration and insurance needed
• Hardly any EUC fits here. Cannot be officially registered because of number of wheels and lack of brakes, but some will fit by power and speed
• V8, V10F, not many others

Motorcycle class:

• Different classes but basically all above 45 km/h. 4000 W power has some internal differences depending on country.
• Basically all modern wheels fit here as they are limited to above 45 or 50 km/h (depends on area)

If manufacturers implemented a hard limit on some models at 45 or 50 km/h, these wheels could be classified as mopeds. The difference comes to play if we get caught riding them on bike lanes and without registration. I would argue that there are plenty of riders to support a healthy market for moped class wheels. Many already don't exceed 45 km/h in normal riding and a hard limit would not matter much. The wheels could still be just as powerful, just a software limit on max speed is needed. Another benefit of this class becoming popular is that manufacturers would have to compete on other features instead of max speed and voltage. Once the speed is capped, they could compete on weight, range, ergonomics, features etc. 

At the moment we keep buying wheels with ever growing top speeds although the real reason might be better suspension or bigger battery. If moped class wheels don't excist, how can the market influence manufacturers? How do we get the message to them that there's a market for this class of wheels?

[RagingGrandpa]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:14 AM, UniVehje said:

Max 4000 W power, max 45-50 km/h

Summary: you wish there were more new small EUC's?

I think @Funky will be happy to help you beat that drum  

[Planemo]

13 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Summary: you wish there were more new small EUC's?

I think @Funky will be happy to help you beat that drum  

Oh gawd don't start him off again 

[Mono]

On 1/3/2024 at 4:14 PM, UniVehje said:

E-bike class:

• max 1000W and max 25 km/h, no registration, no insurance etc. 
• Only some older wheels would fit here. V5F, KS 14S, Ninebot S2 etc.

Power restrictions are generally being abandoned for self-balancing devices, IMHO rightly so. They can, maybe should, be replaced by weight restrictions (which also limits the possible power in some way). A good number for this class could be somewhere between 15kg and 25kg (I'd prefer the latter).

In France, to my understanding, the speed limitation doesn't need to be physically-constructive, that is, other wheels too could fall into this class when they are sold with a speed limiter engaged. As for power, a physically-constructive speed limit is IMHO rather not advisable for self-balancing devices.

 

Edited January 5 by Mono

[Planemo]

I agree with a lot of that @Mono. 25kg would also nicely slot in with the EU e-bike rules. My Haibike is pretty much 25kg, restricted to 15.5mph. But... for ebikes they are heavily regulated in terms of tampering. The anti-tamper systems found on current Bosch ebikes are almost impossible to derestrict now, at least not without a high chance of an error code being thrown up and the bike going into limp mode. If this same level of regulation is thrown at EUC's I would likely give up the hobby as I'm really not interested in a 15mph EUC tbh (my Haibike is derestricted).

If they did away with a speed limit for EUC's as you suggest, my fear is that the manufacturers would simply make fast, lightweight wheels. Still good for maybe 40mph but with small batteries like the 100v MSX 1230Wh of old. So I guess we could go back to those for kicks but we would struggle to get suspension as well for that weight unless we went down to tiny batteries...

A shame as the EX is perfect for me but if a weight limit comes in it would be super easy for the police to carry a small set of scales and bang I'm busted. So I'm kinda knackered either way, not that I'm in any better situation at the moment given they are outright illegal in the UK!

[Mono]

4 hours ago, Planemo said:

If they did away with a speed limit for EUC's as you suggest, my fear is that the manufacturers would simply make fast, lightweight wheels. Still good for maybe 40mph but with small batteries like the 100v MSX 1230Wh of old. So I guess we could go back to those for kicks but we would struggle to get suspension as well for that weight unless we went down to tiny batteries...

I am not sure anybody suggested unlimited speed with limited weight? To me, unlimited speed would be the full motorcycle category without any weight limit too and the full deck of regulations.

4 hours ago, Planemo said:

A shame as the EX is perfect for me but if a weight limit comes in it would be super easy for the police to carry a small set of scales and bang I'm busted.

That's one of the beauties of a weight limitation compared to a power limitation. It's very transparent and easy to check on both ends, user and enforcement. A law which is practically unenforceable is almost invariably a bad law.

Edited January 5 by Mono

[Funky]

Yes.

-There is no need for further discussion. Simply - Yes. 

Don't care about any limits/rules/laws. If it goes 40km/h speed and is around 20kg - I'm Happy. 

Edited January 5 by Funky

[UniVehje]

3 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Summary: you wish there were more new small EUC's?

No. I do think weight matters but I don’t personally want small EUCs. I don’t want any less power either. Just speed restricted to a standard value that is higher than I need that all the R&D from now on goes to other features. And I don’t want the manufacturers to stop speed development either. Not against Americans needing to go faster on underdeveloped infrastructure 

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Don't care about any limits/rules/laws. If it goes 40km/h speed and is around 20kg - I'm Happy. 

Well, I don't think so, you even demand a very specific location of the motherboard, or did I read this wrongly the other day?

Edited January 5 by Mono

[UniVehje]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

If it goes 40km/h speed and is around 20kg - I'm Happy. 

No you’re not. This wheel exists already and you’re (very clearly) not happy. You want the same with the latest design and features also. 

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

Well, I don't think so, you even demand a very specific location of the motherboard, or did I read this wrongly the other day?

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

No you’re not. This wheel exists already and you’re (very clearly) not happy. You want the same with the latest design and features also. 

I only mentioned speed and weight.. We where talking about wheels that aren't manufactured. New wheels in general. No?

Any wheel that will come out right now, will be much better, than those wheels from 2018. Again - Any new wheel in that weight/speed category would make me happy. 

Most new wheels already have stronger axle. Even A2 has thicker axle. Most wheels are getting water rating or built with water ingress in mind. Most new wheels already have motherboard at top apartment. 

This topic was about wheels that haven't been made yet.. (Yes have been made from 2018, no-one wants an outdated wheel.) Duh..

 

I want an redesigned 2024 ks16s. No new pads.. Or dumb shit like that! Completely new wheels from ground up.

Edited January 5 by Funky

[Planemo]

21 hours ago, Mono said:

I am not sure anybody suggested unlimited speed with limited weight?

Yeah maybe I read the thoughts wrong. I did see speed limits mentioned within the thread so made an assumption. In any event we know that speed limits for self balancing vehicles are very difficult to implement so I'm not sure it's really going to work. We can of course introduce manufacturer-forced tiltback but as I say, for that idea to be widely adopted by the law makers they would want to see some pretty strict anti-tampering methods employed before they gave the green light.

I do know that Bosch are regularly and actively hounded by governments to ensure that derestriction is made as difficult as possible. And as and when effective derestriction becomes evident (as versions of the 2021 system on my ebike did), Bosch were expected to get their fingers out sharpish and sort it or lose the ability to market their bikes. And so they did, the next version was made much more secure and to this day I'm not aware of any long-term derestriction solutions that work effectively.

21 hours ago, Mono said:

To me, unlimited speed would be the full motorcycle category without any weight limit too and the full deck of regulations.

Agreed. But go into MC categories and EUC's are out before we start because I can't imagine any EU country being OK without a failsafe braking system.

21 hours ago, Mono said:

That's one of the beauties of a weight limitation compared to a power limitation.

Oh I agree with that too, easy to enforce and it's a catch-all. But as I say it would spell the end for a lot of riders I feel  I would suspect the lawmakers wouldn't want to see much more than about 30kg so that rules out many of the wheels currently used (at least by those on this forum).

If I was a lawmaker I'm really not sure what I would do re self-balancing stuff. At this stage I think I would go with a weight limit of say 25kg and with an enforced (and un-hackable) 15.5mph severe tiltback. Depressing stuff.

 

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

 

If I was a lawmaker I'm really not sure what I would do re self-balancing stuff. At this stage I think I would go with a weight limit of say 25kg and with an enforced (and un-hackable) 15.5mph severe tiltback. Depressing stuff.

 

I would welcome the 25kg weight limit.  

But in no way i will welcome 15.5mph speed limit. Only reason i got euc is because it's not limited to 15mph same as scooters.. Aside of smaller form factor.

I can't imagine getting tilt back alarms all the time on euc while going 15mph.. Duck that.

I would love at least 25mph as hard limit. Even my 31mph wheel doesn't make any alarms ever, because i'm riding around 15-20mph most times.

 

I understand the need for speed limit and such. But same time duck that. Even when i was thinking about buying e-scooter. I looked only at models which could be speed unlocked. Because 15mph is way 2 slow. And that's coming from non speed demon rider.. Speed limitation should be removed for all devices. Rider is responsible to obey the law and he has the option of choosing to do so. 

I won't lie - i ride most times around 15mph, but sometimes i go to 20mph and 27mph on "fun" rides. And that's while riding on sidewalks. That's the beauty - when you don't see anyone on path and have straight empty sidewalks - you can go faster.. And around people obey the law and go 10mph or slower. Being locked at 15mph.. I would get alarms every 10 seconds. On scooters you can press down the speed and simply go around 15mph non stop as speed gauge shows 15mph all the time.. On EUC it would be nightmare.. Pedals tilting back all the time.. Alarms.. No thanks.

Edited January 6 by Funky

[Planemo]

8 minutes ago, Funky said:

Speed limitation should be removed for all devices. Rider is responsible to obey the law and he has the option of choosing to do so.

And theres the rub, people just can't be trusted. Cue all the people who ride 45mph+ in totally unsuitable locations. It seems to be a disease in the community unfortunately.

I'm with you, a 15.5mph EUC just isn't my thing, I'd rather be on an ebike and have the range advantage of not using the Wh to balance.

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Yeah maybe I read the thoughts wrong. I did see speed limits mentioned within the thread so made an assumption. In any event we know that speed limits for self balancing vehicles are very difficult to implement so I'm not sure it's really going to work. We can of course introduce manufacturer-forced tiltback but as I say, for that idea to be widely adopted by the law makers they would want to see some pretty strict anti-tampering methods employed before they gave the green light.

I don't know what you exactly mean by "difficult", but it's the current standard practice in some (or even many?) European countries (where the law makers are apparently good with what we have) where EUCs are legal to ride for like 100 million-or-so citizens. I guess one reason is that EUCs are not widely used and not expected to be anytime soon. Also, speed measurements aren't that difficult to do. I suspect that law enforcement could just legally cease an EUC which passes by with 50km/h even without an "official" measurement, because the infraction is too evident and severe. Now, for me it's easy to "prove" that I abide by the speed limit law, because the app tells us so. The other way around, for the law enforcement to prove that I broke the law, is indeed more difficult, but I don't quite see any insurmountable problem. For example, the law could required me to offer a proof of restricted speed (in the app) when asked, otherwise they could stop me to operate the vehicle until I can offer the proof.

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

I do know that Bosch are regularly and actively hounded by governments to ensure that derestriction is made as difficult as possible. And as and when effective derestriction becomes evident (as versions of the 2021 system on my ebike did), Bosch were expected to get their fingers out sharpish and sort it or lose the ability to market their bikes. And so they did, the next version was made much more secure and to this day I'm not aware of any long-term derestriction solutions that work effectively.

Interesting story, I guess that's part of their (smart) lobbying effort. The problem with assisted e-bikes is that going above the speed limit is in itself not an infraction, so a speed measurement alone is not sufficient. Hence it may be more important to prevent cheating the restrictions.

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

EUC's are out before we start because I can't imagine any EU country being OK without a failsafe braking system.

I'd be less pessimistic when the general incentives would be there to have faster EUCs on the roads. We already collected quite some data which (most likely) shows that brake failure is among the rarest conceivable reasons for accidents there is. When the experts are up to the task, the law maker will follow. Currently however, I see almost zero incentives to make such an effort.

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Oh I agree with that too, easy to enforce and it's a catch-all. But as I say it would spell the end for a lot of riders I feel  I would suspect the lawmakers wouldn't want to see much more than about 30kg so that rules out many of the wheels currently used (at least by those on this forum).

If I was a lawmaker I'm really not sure what I would do re self-balancing stuff. At this stage I think I would go with a weight limit of say 25kg and with an enforced (and un-hackable) 15.5mph severe tiltback. Depressing stuff.

I appreciate your ability to look at this from the law maker and general population perspective, few people seem to be willing and capable of doing this!

To my understanding that's why the OP was trying to open a route to other classes of EUCs too, which could go more-or-less into already established vehicle categories. Mine would be like 

1. Up to 25km/h and 25kg classified like a bicycle (with insurance when personal liability insurance is not obliged to cover bicycle accidents)
2. Up to 45km/h and 45kg with insurance and driver license and helmet legislation like for a moped
3. Otherwise like a motorcycle (type homologization, registration, insurance, driver license, helmet...)

I agree that 2. and 3. are quite unlikely to happen any time soon.

Edited January 6 by Mono

[UniVehje]

3 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I'm with you, a 15.5mph EUC just isn't my thing,

Same for me. There are better devices for this speed and devices that can be ridden faster legally. EUC won’t be totally legal as a moped even after speed restrictions. But there’s still a difference if you get in trouble with the police. Plus more motivation to compete on other features than speed. 

[Mono]

27 minutes ago, Planemo said:

have the range advantage of not using the Wh to balance.

I am pretty sure there is virtually zero range loss from balancing: when going forward, forward balancing is achieved by increasing the speed and backwards balancing is achieved by reducing motor power. There is nothing to see that reduces range but a constant (back and forth) change of speed which should be close to unmeasurable with any moderately advance rider. Operating the controller is AFAIK negligible either, energy-wise. Even the range loss from having to roll two tires on the asphalt instead of one should be more relevant (and is probably still insignificant compared to other factors). I guess the only range loss compared to an e-bike comes from not allowing to discharge the battery to zero on an EUC?

Edited January 6 by Mono

[Mono]

Just now, UniVehje said:

There are better devices for this speed

What is a better device than an EUC for speeds up to 25km/h and why?

[Planemo]

18 minutes ago, Mono said:

I am pretty sure there is virtually zero range loss from balancing

I've no proof, but my gut feeling is that an EUC uses a lot more power to keep a 6' person upright, irrespective of speed. Also, I know I can get 60 miles out of my ebike with a 625Wh battery at 10~15mph. I appreciated thats 'assisted' by myself, but thats on a high level of motor assistance with very little input from me.

Minimum discharge voltage is the same as EUC if I recall. Either way, not saying you're wrong but my feeling is that a bike is far more efficient due to not needing to be balanced.

[techyiam]

I think it is more like we need a class of wheels for the European market. That is, if there are enough European riders to support it.

In Canada and the US, just keep it status quo. It will figure itself out.

When no one buys a newly released wheel, the manufacturers will respond immediately.

There were plenty of people who bought EX30's/V13's, now the Lynx, and soon maybe ET Max, too.

Edited January 6 by techyiam

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

For example, the law could required me to offer a proof of restricted speed (in the app) when asked

Yeah, I admire your optimism that police would take a legal decision based on being presented with something from an app on your phone.

1 hour ago, Mono said:

otherwise they could stop me to operate the vehicle until I can offer the proof.

I think thats far more likely the case. And in the UK, they would take possession of your EUC until you do so.

1 hour ago, Mono said:

I'd be less pessimistic when the general incentives would be there to have faster EUCs on the roads.

I'm pessimistic because as much as I love EUC's they are, without doubt, far more dangerous than say a bicycle. If you don't agree with that then I understand your optimism

And I can't see any incentive for lawmakers to have faster EUC's on the roads?!

54 minutes ago, Mono said:

What is a better device than an EUC for speeds up to 25km/h and why?

I know this question wasn't aimed at me but I will throw my 2p in - I think @UniVehje probably missed the point a little - it's all down to use case, not speed. For me, I would have no use for a 15mph EUC, I would just use my ebike instead. Outdoors, I can go anywhere on my ebike that I want to go - road/trail/downhill. But I admit my needs from an EUC are very limited - I don't use public transport, I don't live in a flat, nor do I go shopping with an EUC or indeed do anything else where an EUC may be beneficial. So that just leaves pleasure rides and in that situation, if I only had 15mph to play with, I would rather just sit down and take in the view on an ebike with far less risk of injuring myself. I love the feel of riding an EUC but I don't get that feel when doing 10~15mph. I maybe used to when I started with my V5F, but I don't think I would now, I would just get bored. My EUC rides are just too long and cover too much distance to enjoy them at 15mph, which is also why I wouldn't do it on an ebike either. I would get more fun out of losing myself for a day in the forest on an ebike with say a total distance of about 20~30miles.

I totally appreciate that a 15mph EUC would be very useful indeed for a lot of people though

 

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

I'm pessimistic because as much as I love EUC's they are, without doubt, far more dangerous than say a bicycle.

I don't think they are much more dangerous than bikes, perhaps fractionally, and only then because they are heavier, but the extra risks of that are easily mitigated (tether etc).

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

And I can't see any incentive for lawmakers to have faster EUC's on the roads?!

Lest they forget (and I often think they do) it's nothing to do with incentive ! Their job is to safely enable the things humans want to do ! They shouldn't have to like them as a concept, approve personally, or anything like that - they just have to come up with fair, just, safety-prioritising law that acknowledges, classifies and regulates us. Choosing outright bans instead is obviously easier for them, but they shouldn't be choosing easy; they should be choosing correctly, and with a future-facing attitude !

Currently, we are banned under legislation that was designed and passed to prevent people building their own steam engines ! That's how forward-facing we are at the moment ! Fortunately (though not always luckily) our police still have a level of discretionary power, and IME at least, the vast majority of them are very reasonable about it, despite the law situation, as long as they don't see me doing anything dodgy / reckless, which they never will. But I don't like leaving it to luck, and the individual attitude of officers at the scene as to whether I get to go home with my machine - it should be enshrined in the same law (or extension to) that covers bicycles, mopeds and all the other non-car vehicles.

 

Edited January 6 by Cerbera

[Funky]

Meh it turned into another legal/illegal/law/rules tread..

I don't care about that. All i want is lighter wheels - that's why i'm all for 25kg weight limit. 

As for speed - i don't care if you gonna need to register 50km/h wheel and get a driver license.. Or 25km/h one which can be ridden without any documents. I simply could choose not to do any of that. (Mostly because i never see police. And i ride my own set speed limits 10-20km/h around people. Down to 5km/h if they don't see me coming and i need to pass very close to them.. And 30-44km/h on empty paths.)  Same time i'm against 25km/h hard limit. That's simply stupid. I was already ready to mod my scooter to go from 25km/h to 40km/h by simply cutting one wire, when i was planning to buy one.

They can put any law/rules they want - it won't change my ridding in any way. Or if everything will go to shit i'm right-out gonna buy scooter cheap one for 1000$ and ride it. Same time mod it to go faster.. Because no-one beats an eye on them around here. And i have seen those "big/powerful" ones around here also. I can 100% guaranty they aren't riding 25km/h speeds.  

[Mono]

22 hours ago, Planemo said:

Either way, not saying you're wrong but my feeling is that a bike is far more efficient due to not needing to be balanced.

Besides that I don't see the mechanism why balancing uses power without using the very same power also entirely to advance the vehicle, I also collected some data quite some time ago and saw no evidence for clear consumption differences between different micro mobility devices. 10Wh per mile, ≈6.5Wh/km, as you reported, is indeed lower than what I can remember from any device without pedal assist, which is usually between 10 and 20Wh/km.

21 hours ago, Planemo said:

I'm pessimistic because as much as I love EUC's they are, without doubt, far more dangerous than say a bicycle. If you don't agree with that then I understand your optimism

We don't have the data to know for sure, but danger has a pretty tight relation with speed, so yes, 50km/h EUCs are likely considerably more dangerous than bicycles. I am not at all sure that is true for 25km/h EUCs too because danger has a pretty tight relation with speed  I don't see why the law maker would and should care that much regarding the rider safety, my understanding of the law is that for a prohibition the determining factor is the safety of everybody else but those who willingly engage in the activity. Otherwise, there would be no way that base jumping or wingsuit flying could be legal.

My personal optimism may be fueled by my personal experience: I have been riding for about 2000 hours in 8+years in the public space of various countries with different legal requirements and have not been stopped once by law enforcement. But then, more often than not I ride entirely within the legal requirements and even when not, I don't ride fast and don't use a helmet or other protection signalling that I engage in a dangerous activity.

20 hours ago, Funky said:

Meh it turned into another legal/illegal/law/rules tread..

It didn't turn into it, it was exactly this right from the OP.

Edited January 7 by Mono

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

I don't think they are much more dangerous than bikes, perhaps fractionally, and only then because they are heavier, but the extra risks of that are easily mitigated (tether etc).

Even disregarding the heaviness, EUC crashes are 2 a penny. Bicycle crashes aren't. Hell, even within our own community many folk say 'it's not if, it's when'. You simply don't get that sort of suggestion in bicycle communities unless you're a hardcore downhiller and even then, serious injuries are pretty few and far between.

People just don't get on bikes assuming they are going to crash, at any point. Conversely, it seems to be a right of passage in the EUC world.

Make of that what you will - perhaps its simply that there are a higher ratio of lunatics in the EUC world than there are in the bike world. Actually there may be some mileage in that as I've ridden with both communities and only one has had members who I now refuse to ride with, a large percentage too, pro-rata.

I'm totally with you though re your thoughts on legislation and also what appears to be our very similar riding style, lack of accidents and lack of police attention.