A positive interaction with the law...

[Cerbera]

Was at the supermarket earlier, wheeling my basket around on a Master in Maximum 'bling mode' (ALL the lights), and in fully exposed armour mode (so essentially looking like a stormtrooper buying potatoes) when I came round a corner, and ran straight into a PCSO (not literally), who was chatting to the security guard there. He was in town to pick up some shoplifters, but engaged me in conversation and asked how I was doing, and how the riding was going ! Turns out he was the same very nice guy who had stopped me on the local heath a few years back on my little MS3, and he was impressed with the upgrade since ! 

I mentioned to him that I often see him and the police around town, but they seem remarkably uninterested in me and my wheelings, for which I am very grateful and appreciative, but I have always rather wondered why that is ! And then he dropped a golden nugget of information that warmed my little heart - he said that I am often discussed amongst the local police team, and that the reason I have never been stopped in town is because they know I ride safely, and although they see me all the time, have never once seen me do anything dangerous...

I was very heartened by this, because it means that despite the very vocal and admonishing stance by the UK government and lawmakers in general over here in the UK, it is nice to see our police exercising their powers of discretion (not to mention reason !) to allow something that, whilst being strictly an unclassified vehicle / not legal, they can recognize that it is being done safely, and (hopefully) well, and in consideration of other people, and that this does count for something ! Of course, as the man himself said, there will always be 'jobsworths' but on the whole, they only become interested in people like us if we start doing reckless things. And as I do all my 'reckless things' on isolated cycle paths, where it is utterly safe to do so, then they seem largely unbothered, and dare I say say, even mildly approving !

In fact today's rides featured nothing but positive interactions with pretty much everyone I met or passed today (even the cyclists waved back!), and extra bonus, no angry dogs !!!

 

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Cerbera

[Funky]

Could have bought him some donuts. <3

[The Brahan Seer]

11 hours ago, Cerbera said:

it is nice to see our police exercising their powers of discretion

I have the same situation from my local police too which is great.  If the traffic police visit here and see me then it most probably will be a very different story. 

[alcatraz]

The whole traffic police force there deserves praise.

I doubt one nice officer is enough to turn everyone around.

[techyiam]

Am I missing something here?

If you want to be sure that you ride in a manner that doesn't attract negative attention from police, pedestrians, other pev's or cyclists etc at you, why would you be  riding a powerhouse like the Master?

It is great the police don't go out of their way to blindly enforce whatever law they desire because technically they can. But to do so to help solve real problems on the roads. 

Should you not be riding something like an S18, or V11? I understand the suspension part. Aren't EAPC's (e-bikes) top speed severely limited to 15.5 mph, with a maximum of 250 watts? Anything else are regulated as regular motor vehicles and would require licensing, insurance etc.

When you were riding in police presence, how fast were you riding?

[Freeforester]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

Am I missing something here?

Manners maketh Man.
 

Even a Bugatti can toddle along when necessary; not that it likely matters much to the perhaps less technically interested policemen, the Master is not the largest wheel, nor in the league of Monster Pro Master Pro nor indeed the V13. Conversely, were Cerbera riding a super loud 50cc bike around the town like a hooligan (I hope you’re not, Cerbera!), then he would equally be in the eye of the local constabulary, albeit for different reasons. Act like an ambassador, hope to be treated as one; act like a jerk, expect attention. Ambassadors will gain acceptance, if not admiration, jerks put us all in jeopardy.     Discretion is the better part of valour.

[Cerbera]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

why would you be  riding a powerhouse like the Master?

Oh many reasons for that, all of which supersede stealth in my book. If I was really going for stealth I wouldn't have the lightshow or armour I do ! Loads of advantages to having a Master, even in a highly urbanised environment; being so much higher up (better visibility / awareness), suspension (predictably), vast additional headroom / safety margin at the sort of speeds I normally go, wanted something 'big and proper' to challenge myself after a succession of smaller wheels, and initially, because I thought 'faster was better', or would be more fun, before I realised that neither was the case for me ! Still don't think I ever been faster than 55 kph on it so far, and therefore my safety margin has never dipped under 45% and I haven't had any cut-outs, even when I have felt like I am going scarily fast on the bits where it I consider it least risky to do so ! 

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

When you were riding in police presence, how fast were you riding?

Never much faster than walking speed, commensurate with the pavements they invariably saw me on !

Literally, the only time I go faster than 25 kph on that thing is on isolated cycle paths where the police are not...

1 hour ago, Freeforester said:

Act like an ambassador, hope to be treated as one; act like a jerk, expect attention.

Yep, 100% that. If I am relentlessly polite and considerate as I ride, and do so at sensible speeds in populated areas, then I figure it really doesn't make that much difference what you are actually riding, especially, as mentioned if it doesn't make any noise that disturbs anyone else. If the limits for what IS legal are so pathetically small, then no EUC from the last 5 years is going to pass, and I am prioritising ACTUAL safety and balancing headroom / performance over technical compliance, which is, I think, to some extent, 'moderately defensible'.

It's true that I am much more imposing when riding, in all that armour and with the extra height / bulk of the machine, but if anything I find that earns 'due respect' from various authorities in that they no longer visualise what you are riding as a toy, as they might with a little Airwheel or MTen4 etc... of course I realise that particular pendulum can swing both ways, but hasn't so far - perhaps I have been merely lucky !

I think, at the end of the day, I am not ashamed of my wheelings, genuinely believe they are a good idea as part of the future of PEVs, and I want to attract some attention to the fact I am doing it every day, and not having horrible collisions or accidents - I guess I am trying to 'normalise' it in the eyes of the people around me in the hope that the law changes eventually to allow them. So rather than my overall approach being trying to hide what I am doing at all, I want to openly do it, take responsibility, and aim to do it really fucking well ! Of course whether I still feel like that if my Master gets confiscated by an official having a bad day and I risk 6 points on my driving license remains to be seen, but I'd hope so...

Edited May 28, 2023 by Cerbera

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Freeforester said:

Manners maketh Man.
 

Even a Bugatti can toddle along when necessary; not that it likely matters much to the perhaps less technically interested policemen, the Master is not the largest wheel, nor in the league of Monster Pro Master Pro nor indeed the V13. Conversely, were Cerbera riding a super loud 50cc bike around the town like a hooligan (I hope you’re not, Cerbera!), then he would equally be in the eye of the local constabulary, albeit for different reasons. Act like an ambassador, hope to be treated as one; act like a jerk, expect attention. Ambassadors will gain acceptance, if not admiration, jerks put us all in jeopardy.     Discretion is the better part of valour.

Actually, it is a lot simpler than that.

By law, if you want to operate an e-bike in the UK legally, it cannot have a maximum power of more than 250W, an assisted top speed of not more than 15.5 mph, with the required performance specs labeled on the bike. Otherwise, it would be illegal to ride on public roads unless it is properly registered, licensed, insured etc. It doesn't even mattar if your riding speed never exceeds 10 mph.

And all other PEV'S are illegal, even if it has a maximum power of 100W and an assisted top speed of 10 mph, actually any power and speed for that matter.

But it appears the Police have decided to make an exception for him for now, and not enforce the law. They actually are watching him. But they are giving him a chance.

This is a great opportunity for him to show to the police that electric wheels can be ridden safely and responsibly. 

With a Master, he has a higher potential to jeopardize this great opportunity. 

But it appears by his reply that he isn't using the Master as a performance machine causing mayhem or terrorizing pedestrians, bicyclists etc. It does sound like the Police seem to agree so far. I just hope he never gets caught doing something the police don't like.

Edited May 28, 2023 by techyiam

[Freeforester]

Quite. Two nations, divided by a common language!

[Funky]

Dam. If you don't go faster than 25km/h, why do you even need master?  Doh kudos for riding so slow around people. Safety first.  I normally pass people same speed as i'm riding my bicycle, around ~15km/h. (Plenty wide walkways we got here, so you can pass them easily.) Sure if they are in front of my and blocking my pathway - then i normally slow down to walking speeds. (As i politely ask them, if they could let me pass. Followed by thank you.)

Nowadays i rarely go slower than 30-35km/h on my 18xl. Even in city center. (Doh idk how busy your place are.. Luckily i don't have many people around me. And most small side paths/walkways are empty. So most times i can go those speed. (Have notice happens almost everywhere i ride. I simply choose those paths where people rarely walk..)

And here i thought i was sidewalk crawler.  (Again even scooters are allowed by law to go up 25km/h speed - on same paths where people walk.) You just have to use your brain and go the right speeds.. Slow around people. No people - go what ever speed you want. (Ofc if you don't have "blind" areas, where you can't see people coming.)

Edited May 28, 2023 by Funky

[Cerbera]

52 minutes ago, Funky said:

Dam. If you don't go faster than 25km/h, why do you even need master?

Because of the comfort of the ride, the challenge of 'Mastering' such a machine, and the joy of knowing I have almost infinite headroom at the sort of speeds I typically ride. There is a great deal of enjoyment to had in a machine that can go up any incline I ask it to (lot of hills round here), and it just seems to have endless grunt available with which to do it. And although there are few places round here suitable for high speeds, when I do find myself on an out-of-town empty cycle path, isolated from road traffic then I have no objection to giving it some beans through those bits, which I do enjoy in short, controlled bursts - I just don't feel the need to blast it everywhere I go, and find as much joy in slow, graceful carefully controlled movement as I do gunning it about on the wide open bits...

Also, I am quite a lot speed-limited by wind. It is often very windy here, and my regular paths tend to take me through lots of especially turbulent wind-tunnel type bits, and the Master is very susceptible to crosswind, so that often stays my speed and prevents me pushing much over 50 kph. I do notice, however, that my average riding speed does go up slightly almost every time I ride, so I am obviously not immune to the Master's 'inclination to the faster'...

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Cerbera

[Mono]

21 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Still don't think I ever been faster than 55 kph on it so far, and therefore my safety margin has never dipped under 45%

How did you compute this 45% ?

Edited May 29, 2023 by Mono

[Cerbera]

10 minutes ago, Mono said:

How did you compute this 45% ?

That was the EUCW reported safety margin at the time...

[mhpr262]

I ride an EX20S HT version and I still never ride faster than 15 or 16 mph. I really enjoy the huge battery and the torque though. I came back from a tour through the Alps yesterday (from Füssen across the Fernpass, following the famous old Via Claudia Augusta Roman road, to Imst in Austria), 75 kilometers over some seriously steep mountain dirt roads with deep gravel patches, and by the end the battery was still 55% full. That same tour would have been a huuuge pain in the ass with my V11, with at least a one-hour charging stop. The EX20S hauled my 270lbs( with gear) ass up the steepest roads and through the deepest gravel without ever breaking a sweat.

Edited May 29, 2023 by mhpr262

[techyiam]

47 minutes ago, mhpr262 said:

I ride an EX20S HT version and I still never ride faster than 15 or 16 mph. I really enjoy the huge battery and the torque though. I came back from a tour through the Alps yesterday (from Füssen across the Fernpass, following the famous old Via Claudia Augusta Roman road, to Imst in Austria), 75 kilometers over some seriously steep mountain dirt roads with deep gravel patches, and by the end the battery was still 55% full. That same tour would have been a huuuge pain in the ass with my V11, with at least a one-hour charging stop. The EX20S hauled my 270lbs( with gear) ass up the steepest roads and through the deepest gravel without ever breaking a sweat.

You have impressive self-control. I don't think I can ride and never exceed 16 mph on my Abrams. However, if you can, on a big wheel, it would feel more comfortable too.

[mhpr262]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

You have impressive self-control. I don't think I can ride and never exceed 16 mph on my Abrams. However, if you can, on a big wheel, it would feel more comfortable too.

Thinking of how badly I could injure my overweight, 48 year old ass in a crash and how much it would suck having to spend the best months of the riding season hobbling about in a cast helps  immensely...

[Mono]

On 5/29/2023 at 2:59 PM, Cerbera said:

That was the EUCW reported safety margin at the time...

I still don't understand what this means, safety margin 45%, 45% of what? I wouldn't know at all what 45% safety means...

[Cerbera]

Just now, Mono said:

I still don't understand what this means, safety margin 45%, 45% of what? I wouldn't know at all what 45% safety means...

@Chriull explained it to some extent a while back...

Quote

 

Every bldc motor has a maximum torque over speed limit line. It runs between "stall torque" at 0 km/h and 0 Nm at no load speed. As written above the no load speed depends on the battery voltage. (Directly proportional)

So the faster one drives, the less torque the motor can deliver. Some of this torque is needed to overcome friction, air drag, acceleration, inclines, etc. The difference to the maximum possible at the actual speed is a safety margin...

 

In practice, I am told that the safety margin alarm should be set in the range of 10 to 30% to alert you (additionally to the wheel's speed-based alarms) to warn you if the safety margin goes lower than the threshold you specified. I have mine, rather conservatively set to 30% alarm, and as mentioned above, have never heard it, as my margin remains above 50% the vast majority of the time, and only starts dipping below that when I hit speeds of around 50 kph+, as measured by the wheel.

[mrelwood]

On 5/31/2023 at 7:48 PM, Mono said:

I still don't understand what this means, safety margin 45%, 45% of what? I wouldn't know at all what 45% safety means...

Unless I’m mistaken, for wheels that report the actual PWM utilization (Inmotion, maybe KS?), the safety margin is directly 100% - PWM. For wheels that don’t report PWM, EUCw tries to estimate it by calculating from the reported voltage and current (and maybe speed?).

And what is PWM? EUC motors are driven with short pulses of voltage/current that repeat each time the coil group passes a magnet in the stator. If the riding speed and motor stress are low, the pulse is very short. As the speed and stress increase, the controller lengthens the pulse to give more overall power to the motor. PWM utilization is the length of the pulse from 0 to the maximum available pulse length. Once the max pulse length is reached (PWM 100%), the motor operates at its max power and can no longer provide additional torque. In other words, you will faceplant.

PWM (or safety margin) alerts are great in that they take everything in consideration. Speed, battery level, weight, incline, wind, etc. No other measure is as comprehensive.

Edited June 2, 2023 by mrelwood

[plentora]

PWM = gas engine throttle

Think EUC motor with a gas engine. You can only get the engine running at maximum throttle when needed and that's the limit. The motor cannot produce any more power. That is same with PWM.

If PWM or throttle is 100%, there is no reserve power for balancing and you will fall. The wheel just cannot level itself when it is already running at full throttle.

Very same as running downhill. If you run down at your maximum speed (PWM 100%), there is no way for you to save yourself from falling. You cannot catch up yourself.

You want at all times keep PWM lower than 100%. Way lower. You need that extra safety for the wheel to keep itself upright.

Respect the beep.

[Mono]

I see, it's the duty cycle reserve margin. Makes sense.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Mono

[techyiam]

33 minutes ago, Mono said:

I see, it's the duty cycle safety margin. Makes sense.

+1

They are using Pulse Width Modulation to vary battery output, in particular, battery voltage. At 0% duty cycle PWM, the switch is essentially off, and the output is 0 Volts. And at 100% duty cycle PWM, the switch is basically on. Full battery voltage is connected.

So, if the wheel is already running at 100% duty cycle, and more torque is required to deal with added load and self-balancing, no additional current is possible because the motor is already getting full battery voltage.

Personally, I consider the top speed to be the maximum attainable speed not exceeding 80% duty cycle PWM.

[Mono]

7 hours ago, techyiam said:

Personally, I consider the top speed to be the maximum attainable speed not exceeding 80% duty cycle PWM.

How do you know this speed though? I assume that this speed should vary with road incline, head wind, charge status, tire pressure, rider weight, ...

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

How do you know this speed though? I assume that this speed should vary with road incline, head wind, charge status, tire pressure, rider weight, ...

He said “maximum attainable”, so the target speed will be lower if there is a head wind, incline, etc. One does need to monitor the PWM while riding to get the exact speed of course. But 70% of the free spin speed might be close to 80% while riding at a steady speed on a level ground.

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, Mono said:

How do you know this speed though? I assume that this speed should vary with road incline, head wind, charge status, tire pressure, rider weight, ...

Absolutely, but this is true even if you go up to 100% duty cycle PWM.

Top speed has always varied like that. The physics dictates that.