Inmotion V14 Adventure: a new trail wheel from Inmotion

[Planemo]

16 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I highly doubt the Begode stanchions are precision pieces. Aren't they simply stainless steel tubings?

I very much doubt they are stainless, likely plain steel, but chrome plated. But there are various cut-outs and other machined areas to fit with the pedal hangers etc. So although not a precision piece by any means, they are not just a plain tube either.

[techyiam]

17 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I very much doubt they are stainless, likely plain steel, but chrome plated. But there are various cut-outs and other machined areas to fit with the pedal hangers etc. So although not a precision piece by any means, they are not just a plain tube either.

I don't own a Begode suspension wheel, nor have I ever seen a Begode stanchion up close, so I don't what the material is made from. However, I was told be a tech at a euc shop that the Begode stanchions are stainless.

Since you own an EX30, you should be able to tell. The surfaces of Chrome and stainless are distinctly different.

[Planemo]

 

26 minutes ago, techyiam said:

The surfaces of Chrome and stainless are distinctly different.

Indeed they are. Which is why I believe they are chrome plated steel. I also don't believe that Begode would stretch to the considerably increased cost of stainless (and polishing it) if they didn't need to. But, arguably, I concede they could be polished stainless. If they are, I take my hat off to Begode. I just can't see them doing that when it would be a lot cheaper to chrome plate some cheap chinese steel. But, for sure, polished stainless would hold up a lot better than a chrome coating in a dry bushing environment so...your tech could well be right.

The eevees EX30 teardown vid at around the 3.26mark shows close-ups of the stanchions. I'd be interested to hear what you think? (103) Begode EX30 EUC Teardown — A look inside the all-new 4000w C40 motor! - YouTube

Stainless is also far less magnetic (austenitic stainless not at all) than steel so I'll check that too when I get a minute, against the shock linkages for comparison.

26 minutes ago, techyiam said:

However, I was told be a tech at a euc shop that the Begode stanchions are stainless.

Maybe lost in translation? After all, chrome was designed to prevent rusting (staining...).

[techyiam]

18 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Which is why I believe they are chrome plated steel.

I see. In the video, they do look chrome plated.

18 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Stainless is also far less magnetic (austenitic stainless not at all) than steel so I'll check that too when I get a minute, against the shock linkages for comparison.

You never know, this could provide an answer.

18 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Maybe lost in translation? After all, chrome was designed to prevent rusting (staining...).

This is entirely possible.

 

In any case, if the stanchions don't rust, that's really what is important. If the chroming process quality is high enough on a steel pipe, as to not to rust, that would be impressive coming from Begode.

If you ever have an opportunity to check the inside of the stanchions, then you would know for sure. Not important though.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by techyiam

[onkeldanuel]

5 hours ago, Cobaltsaber said:

which now brings in the v14. If their "motorcycle grade" stanchions are the real deal, then we really have a winner. Possibly better than the extreme in almost every way on paper. Then comes the ride feel/firmware. We know how a tire change goes on the v14, now I want to see that suspension system in depth

It still lacks the most important feature of the two other offroad/jumping/trailkings (S22 and Extreme):

more then 100mm travel would be nescessary to be able to compete with them ,

no matter what 

Its only one more 16 inch roadcruiser and in one wheelclass with patton and cp mini (where the naming of adventure would suggest its an competitor to the trailspecialists mentioned above...)

In my opinion they missed a great oportunity and the mainpoint with this suspension-travel choice.

While 85mm travel is pretty ok its not exactly what you want for this usecase

Besides that it for sure will be another great wheel by inmotion now for the 16inch class, no doubt about that  

Edited October 4, 2023 by onkeldanuel

[Rawnei]

25 minutes ago, onkeldanuel said:

It still lacks the most important feature of the two other offroad/jumping/trailkings (S22 and Extreme):

more then 100mm travel would be nescessary to be able to compete with them ,

no matter what 

Its only one more 16 inch roadcruiser and in one wheelclass with patton and cp mini (where the naming of adventure would suggest its an competitor to the trailspecialists mentioned above...)

In my opinion they missed a great oportunity and the mainpoint with this suspension-travel choice.

While 85mm travel is pretty ok its not exactly what you want for this usecase

Besides that it for sure will be another great wheel by inmotion now for the 16inch class, no doubt about that  

I don't know about this really, people are jumping both Sherman S and Patton with their 80mm and 90mm travel, seems to work fine, as long as you have enough spring and dampening to not have a harsh bottom out it should be fine.

[onkeldanuel]

53 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

I don't know about this really, people are jumping both Sherman S and Patton with their 80mm and 90mm travel, seems to work fine, as long as you have enough spring and dampening to not have a harsh bottom out it should be fine.

Yeah forsure its "enough" (barely) but its quite some difference if you can use even 50% of this travel on top....not only for Drops, but also the "comfortzone" where the suspension moves most of the time gets quite a bit extended (more room/travel) and thats quite feelable if all other things align for it to full benefit (which on the extreme is not yet the case, but will be soon-->aftermarketlinkage like the ningning are nescessary on the S22 for best possible operating)

And in my opinion all this applies not so much at slow technical stuff but its very  imminent on highspeed trailriding and medium stuff 

Edited October 4, 2023 by onkeldanuel

[Rawnei]

2 hours ago, onkeldanuel said:

Yeah forsure its "enough" (barely) but its quite some difference if you can use even 50% of this travel on top....not only for Drops, but also the "comfortzone" where the suspension moves most of the time gets quite a bit extended (more room/travel) and thats quite feelable if all other things align for it to full benefit (which on the extreme is not yet the case, but will be soon-->aftermarketlinkage like the ningning are nescessary on the S22 for best possible operating)

And in my opinion all this applies not so much at slow technical stuff but its very  imminent on highspeed trailriding and medium stuff 

I'm just saying, all factors considered, I don't think it's a dealbreaker for most, I thought this myself before I got the Sherman S and later the Patton and saw how well the suspension performed even with that amount of travel, in comparison to Master (which is 70mm) it was night and day in feeling on drops and such.

[onkeldanuel]

13 hours ago, Planemo said:

I very much doubt they are stainless, likely plain steel, but chrome plated. But there are various cut-outs and other machined areas to fit with the pedal hangers etc. So although not a precision piece by any means, they are not just a plain tube either.

To me it seems they are stainless because they are not magnetic (or not noticable) , way less then the batteryboxes for example 

Edited October 4, 2023 by onkeldanuel

[Unventor]

Pease move this to Begode thread as it has nothing to do with Inmotion Adventure. @Planemo @techyiam @Cobaltsaber

I kindly ask you respect the topic headers on the forum. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Unventor

[stizl]

7 hours ago, onkeldanuel said:

Yeah forsure its "enough" (barely) but its quite some difference if you can use even 50% of this travel on top....not only for Drops, but also the "comfortzone" where the suspension moves most of the time gets quite a bit extended (more room/travel) and thats quite feelable if all other things align for it to full benefit (which on the extreme is not yet the case, but will be soon-->aftermarketlinkage like the ningning are nescessary on the S22 for best possible operating)

And in my opinion all this applies not so much at slow technical stuff but its very  imminent on highspeed trailriding and medium stuff 

I think that, in a way, we are comparing apples to oranges here.  There are strengths and weakness of these various suspension designs, and which is right for any given rider depends on their primary use case.  The design of the Adventure's suspension puts it at the sporty end of the 16" wheel spectrum. 

There are obviously many variables to consider (leverage rates, damping characteristics and adjustability (or lack of it), linkage with sliders vs stanchions, etc.), but for the sake of argument we can characterize these suspension systems' performance by two categories: effective spring rate/type and effective damping rate.  We can further simplify these categories into trinaries of constant, progressive, or exponential rates.  

Given the above, the Patton/SS fork-type suspension has both springs and damping that are constant rate.  The Adventure/S22/Extreme linkage-type suspensions have (leverage ratios from their linkage designs and are therefore) progressive spring rate systems, even if they have a non-progressive spring mounted.  Since their damping mechanisms are also deployed at the progressive ends of their linkage systems, they are also progressive.   Furthermore, if a linkage system has a progressive coil spring (Adventure) or air spring (also progressive), they then have progressive springs on top of progressive linkages, which are effectively exponential spring rates.

In summary (and without adding aftermarket progressive springs or fancy variable-rate damping mechanisms), we then have three categories:

Wheel                Effective Spring    Eff. Damping      

Patton/SS              Constant Rate      Constant

Coil S22/Extreme   Progressive       Progressive

Adventure,

Air S22/Extr          Exponential          Progressive

 

Hypothetically, if we were to tune the spring rates and preloads such that all three categories above bottomed out under the exact same hit/drop, the constant spring rate (Patton/SS) wheels would sit highest in their travel at sag and the exponential sit lowest.  Obviously, we don't tune them that way, so (for sake of argument again) let's consider the Adventure, Patton, and Extreme (in "hard" linkage hole) all roughly 90mm-of-travel wheels and that at equal 20%-ish static sag settings their effective spring rates roughly lead to:

Constant effective spring rate bottoms out on one-foot drop to flat,

Progressive effective spring rate bottoms out on two-foot drop to flat,

Exponential effective spring rate bottoms out on three-foot drop to flat.

Tuned as above on a given trail, the constant rate wheel will use the most of its travel most often (and therefore be the most controllable/stable over trails with many small roots/rocks in succession) and the exponential rate wheel will bottom out least often and have the best "boost" off the lips of jumps at the bike park.  This is why the Patton/SS has the reputation of the most comfortable ride but bottoms out most often.  I'd expect the Adventure and Extreme (with air shock) to be the least comfortable over small roots and rocks but be the best for big jumps.  It's apples vs oranges.  The progressive setups fall somewhere in between. 

For me personally, the constant rate on the Patton/SS works great.  I can blast my local rocky/rooty trails with speed and control and still jump up to one-foot logs without bottoming out.  This is the type of riding I do most.  I do hit an occasional bigger jump or drop, but can usually avoid harsh bottom-outs by simply bending my knees...you know, how we used to land jumps before suspension wheels?

All of the above being said, I'm hoping to get a few laps in on the Adventure and see if my opinion still holds. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by stizl

[onkeldanuel]

1 hour ago, stizl said:

I think that, in a way, we are comparing apples to oranges here.  There are strengths and weakness of these various suspension designs, and which is right for any given rider depends on their primary use case.  The design of the Adventure's suspension puts it at the sporty end of the 16" wheel spectrum. 

There are obviously many variables to consider (leverage rates, damping characteristics and adjustability (or lack of it), linkage with sliders vs stanchions, etc.), but for the sake of argument we can characterize these suspension systems' performance by two categories: effective spring rate/type and effective damping rate.  We can further simplify these categories into trinaries of constant, progressive, or exponential rates.  

Given the above, the Patton/SS fork-type suspension has both springs and damping that are constant rate.  The Adventure/S22/Extreme linkage-type suspensions have (leverage ratios from their linkage designs and are therefore) progressive spring rate systems, even if they have a non-progressive spring mounted.  Since their damping mechanisms are also deployed at the progressive ends of their linkage systems, they are also progressive.   Furthermore, if a linkage system has a progressive coil spring (Adventure) or air spring (also progressive), they then have progressive springs on top of progressive linkages, which are effectively exponential spring rates.

In summary (and without adding aftermarket progressive springs or fancy variable-rate damping mechanisms), we then have three categories:

Wheel                Effective Spring    Eff. Damping      

Patton/SS              Constant Rate      Constant

Coil S22/Extreme   Progressive       Progressive

Adventure,

Air S22/Extr          Exponential          Progressive

 

Hypothetically, if we were to tune the spring rates and preloads such that all three categories above bottomed out under the exact same hit/drop, the constant spring rate (Patton/SS) wheels would sit highest in their travel at sag and the exponential sit lowest.  Obviously, we don't tune them that way, so (for sake of argument again) let's consider the Adventure, Patton, and Extreme (in "hard" linkage hole) all roughly 90mm-of-travel wheels and that at equal 20%-ish static sag settings their effective spring rates roughly lead to:

Constant effective spring rate bottoms out on one-foot drop to flat,

Progressive effective spring rate bottoms out on two-foot drop to flat,

Exponential effective spring rate bottoms out on three-foot drop to flat.

Tuned as above on a given trail, the constant rate wheel will use the most of its travel most often (and therefore be the most controllable/stable over trails with many small roots/rocks in succession) and the exponential rate wheel will bottom out least often and have the best "boost" off the lips of jumps at the bike park.  This is why the Patton/SS has the reputation of the most comfortable ride but bottoms out most often.  I'd expect the Adventure and Extreme (with air shock) to be the least comfortable over small roots and rocks but be the best for big jumps.  It's apples vs oranges.  The progressive setups fall somewhere in between. 

For me personally, the constant rate on the Patton/SS works great.  I can blast my local rocky/rooty trails with speed and control and still jump up to one-foot logs without bottoming out.  This is the type of riding I do most.  I do hit an occasional bigger jump or drop, but can usually avoid harsh bottom-outs by simply bending my knees...you know, how we used to land jumps before suspension wheels?

All of the above being said, I'm hoping to get a few laps in on the Adventure and see if my opinion still holds. 

Well said, im not 100% sure if the stock extreme linkage is progressive at all? To me it seems the opposite,  thats why no shock works with it basically (in soft hole) . It feels harder in the beginning and gets softer in the deeper travel....at least it feels like that to me ....

Is this even possible? Degressive curve linkage ? Or maybe its progressive in the beginning travel and then gets linear/degressive at the middle to the end? I dont know , only that it feels kinda like that odd way

Should be the other way around 

Edited October 4, 2023 by onkeldanuel

[stizl]

1 hour ago, onkeldanuel said:

Well said, im not 100% sure if the stock extreme linkage is progressive at all? To me it seems the opposite,  thats why no shock works with it basically (in soft hole) . It feels harder in the beginning and gets softer in the deeper travel....at least it feels like that to me ....

Is this even possible? Degressive curve linkage ? Or maybe its progressive in the beginning travel and then gets linear/degressive at the middle to the end? I dont know , only that it feels kinda like that odd way

Should be the other way around 

According to @Vince.Fab's post on the Extreme thread (pg 22), it is progressive.  I suspect that the "stiction" (static friction) that needs to be overcome to initiate any sort of suspension movement on that wheel as-shipped is quite high, which would make the suspension less effective on small bumps.  Also, a slider/linkage system will inherently have more stiction and friction than a fork type system, as there are less moving parts in a fork-type and all of the motion is up and down instead of getting redirected through linkages to shocks that sit more horizontally.  On that note, coil forks/shocks inherently have less stiction than air, so are also better for small bump compliance. 

[Rawnei]

Having a progressive spring and enclosed sliders with hopefully more precision manufactured components I actually think small bump compliance couldl be pretty good.

Also depends on the shock that they are using which can make a huge difference, I just installed a Rockshox Vivid R2C coil shock on my S22, very very smooth, it has a feature that reduces the forces to get it moving which is noticeable, very good small bump compliance upgrade just from that.

So all in all I have a good gut feeling about the Adventure suspension, personally I'm not looking for another 16" wheel but I know someone who will most likely buy one early batch so will be fun to try it and compare it to my suspension wheels.

[fbhb]

On 10/5/2023 at 7:54 AM, Rawnei said:

Also depends on the shock that they are using which can make a huge difference

It's essentially a Fastace shock + progressive spring that Inmotion are using on the V14!

Edited October 6, 2023 by fbhb

[OldSolo]

Linkage designs can be linear, progressive, or regressive.  You need to actually analyze pivot points & dimensions to sort this out.  I moved to racing full suspension mountain bikes in 1995, and the designs over the next several years varied tremendously.  It seems that Begode is clueless about suspension, but will figure it out  over time.  From a cursory look, the Inmotion V14 looks far better thought out.  Actually performance ... will be seen once production models are shipped & experienced riders get out on them.  My plan (after learning on my Begode A2) is to go with one of these - likely Extreme or V14 from what I know at this point.  The prototype Extreme links that have been discussed are intriguing, hope this sort of work continues.

[Rawnei]

9 minutes ago, fbhb said:

It's basically a Fastace shock + progressive spring that Inmotion are using on the V14!

I wonder if it's suspect-able to oil leaks, that's what happened to my DNM shock and I read it's a common thing why I got a Rockshox instead, they feel pretty good as long as there is no leakage.

[OldSolo]

QUALITY of suspension action is more important than wheel travel.  A properly sprung, well-damped 90mm would be my choice over a poorly thought out 110mm.  Also it allows for a lower ride height/CG which is an advantage off road.

[stizl]

19 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Having a progressive spring and enclosed sliders with hopefully more precision manufactured components I actually think small bump compliance couldl be pretty good.

Also depends on the shock that they are using which can make a huge difference, I just installed a Rockshox Vivid R2C coil shock on my S22, very very smooth, it has a feature that reduces the forces to get it moving which is noticeable, very good small bump compliance upgrade just from that.

So all in all I have a good gut feeling about the Adventure suspension, personally I'm not looking for another 16" wheel but I know someone who will most likely buy one early batch so will be fun to try it and compare it to my suspension wheels.

I also believe that Inmotion will get the suspension close-to-right. 

After getting tired of my leaky stock S18 shock, I also put a RockShox Vivid R2C on it.  It was a game changer, although the range of damping adjustability is too small IMO.  After starting with a 600lb spring that was too stiff, I went fairly extreme and put a 450lb spring on it and jacked the preload to the max to get the sag I needed.  It is now nearly as plush as the Patton. 

[okvp]

There are free easy to use linkage simulation softwares. I just don't understand how Begode managed to fail with linkage ratio design. Either I don't understand why Inmotion made Adventure travel only 85mm for trail wheel. Why didn't they just copy the S22 linkage ratio, which is pretty good.

Extreme ratio can be fixed with aftermarket linkages but Adventure short travel is much much harder and expensive to make longer.

Good thing is that both can have a brand shock, Adventure Fastace shock is sold for 104€ Aliexpress https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004437245367.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.17.bf5979c40KRNn6&algo_pvid=b62e5c6e-bd0f-4fbf-8180-6049f3833350&algo_exp_id=b62e5c6e-bd0f-4fbf-8180-6049f3833350-8&pdp_npi=4%40dis!EUR!165.25!102.46!!!168.95!!%402103226116964476077844658eb3db!12000029178853524!sea!FI!709964245!&curPageLogUid=L3LuMostG747

Extreme's shock is probably even cheaper and crappier...

Edited October 4, 2023 by okvp

[okvp]

5 hours ago, stizl said:

 

In summary (and without adding aftermarket progressive springs or fancy variable-rate damping mechanisms), we then have three categories:

Wheel                Effective Spring    Eff. Damping      

Patton/SS              Constant Rate      Constant

Coil S22/Extreme   Progressive       Progressive

Adventure,

Air S22/Extr          Exponential          Progressive

 

Actually Patton/SS has a 1:1 linear rate and s22 has a pretty much 1:2 linear suspension rate.

Dont know about Extreme rate but Adventure is probaply linear with progressive spring

All the air springs are progressive in nature.There is much more going on with damping that just distance/ rate. Dampers are actually hydraulically somewhat complex and hard to tune and good dampers are expensive to manufacture. Damper/spring system basic function is to keep optimum pressure between tyre and ground.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by okvp

[stizl]

39 minutes ago, okvp said:

Actually Patton/SS has a 1:1 linear rate

Yes, this is in agreement with what I said, just with a different term.  The spring has a fixed (constant) value of force per travel, or F=ks, where k is constant and s is travel. 

I would be very surprised to see a linear leverage rate on the S22 or Adventure linkage system though, as those leverage curves for linkage systems are nearly all falling rate, which produces a progressive-like performance from a constant/linear rate spring, by design.

39 minutes ago, okvp said:

All the air springs are progressive in nature.

Yes, this is also exactly what I said above about air springs.  However, when you combine a progressive spring with a progressive linkage the effect multiplies, which I called exponential for the sake of sorting the different effective spring rates into three categories for the sake of simplicity, with the key word being effective. 

Also, for sure a quality shock/damper from a reputable manufacturer can make a huge improvement in performance.  I have/had many Fox, RockShox, and Ohlins forks/shocks on my motorcycles and MTBs over the years, and they were worth every penny, especially if you are more than just a casual rider.

Edited October 4, 2023 by stizl

[Rawnei]

I just got a Sprindex coil for my S22 as well where you can adjust rating dynamically and get perfect sag, it's also progressive in the last 20% of the stroke similar to Adventure coil, having progression in the end of the stroke is really good if you want to do jumps or drops.

[okvp]

19 minutes ago, stizl said:

I would be very surprised to see a linear leverage rate on the S22 or Adventure linkage system though, as those leverage curves for linkage systems are nearly all falling rate, which produces a progressive-like performance from a constant/linear rate spring, by design.

Yes, this is also exactly what I said above about air springs.  However, when you combine a progressive spring with a progressive linkage the effect multiplies, which I called exponential for the sake of sorting the different effective spring rates into three categories for the sake of simplicity, with the key word being effective. 

Also, for sure a quality shock/damper from a reputable manufacturer can make a huge improvement in performance.  I have/had many Fox, RockShox, and Ohlins forks/shocks on my motorcycles and MTBs over the years, and they were worth every penny, especially if you are more than just a casual rider.

According to this ks22 linkage rate is almost linear https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/31823-king-song-s22-linkage-progression/#comment-461624

I too have a MTB (Fox, Rockshox) R1 (Öhlins) and S22 pro (Rockshox)

Also had enduro and motocross bikes.

Chinese 'brand' (Fastace, DNM...) dampers are somewhat good enough for normal usage, but harder you ride more you gain from a good shock.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by okvp

[stizl]

38 minutes ago, okvp said:

According to this ks22 linkage rate is almost linear https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/31823-king-song-s22-linkage-progression/#comment-461624

I too have a MTB (Fox, Rockshox) R1 (Öhlins) and S22 pro (Rockshox)

Also had enduro and motocross bikes.

Chinese 'brand' (Fastace, DNM...) dampers are somewhat good enough for normal usage, but harder you ride more you gain from a good shock.

 

Agreed, it is progressive rate but less progressive than the effect of most progressive spring applications. I may have been able to just combine Exponential into the Progressive category above, as they’re closer to each other on these wheels than they are to Linear. 
 

I also had an R1, but not with Ohlins…nice!