Inmotion V14 Adventure: a new trail wheel from Inmotion

[Rawnei]

3 hours ago, Ro.man said:

It would be cool to see how he rides the same trail on other wheels

You're really just fooling yourself if you think this is not possible on other wheels and that somehow magically V14 enables a rider to do this, I'm sure this guy of this skill level could do this on most wheels.

[Menno]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

You're really just fooling yourself if you think this is not possible on other wheels and that somehow magically V14 enables a rider to do this, I'm sure this guy of this skill level could do this on most wheels.

For me, I think it is not really about what is possible.

I am sure the guy can do everything in the video with a Mten4 or a Master Pro, it is more interesting to see what the differences are and hear from the reviewer how it felt. I am assuming you would hurt your knees on the Mten4, and have to put in a whole lot of effort to get a heavier wheel to do the same.

I jest, but seeing him do it on a Patton or comparing the same actions on the Extreme could be very interesting.

[Ro.man]

2 hours ago, Rawnei said:

You're really just fooling yourself if you think this is not possible on other wheels and that somehow magically V14 enables a rider to do this, I'm sure this guy of this skill level could do this on most wheels.

It may be possible on some other wheels, I doubt it would be that easy though with a non-suspension wheel or a wheel with low torque (that hill looked really steep) 
Comparison with Patton and Extreme is what we are waiting for

[Rawnei]

All I'm saying is that you are setting up a mental trap for yourself if you romanticize that one wheel can do something that another can't, we have many suspension wheels with really good torque on the market already that can do all these things if the rider has the skill.

You have nothing to gain from romanticizing a brand and everything to gain from being objective.

[Ro.man]

7 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

You have nothing to gain from romanticizing a brand and everything to gain from being objective.

Rawnei, you are speaking with voices in your head
I have never said that it is impossible on other wheels or that Inmotion is the only good brand out there. I'm just saying that what this guy is doing on this wheel is pretty insane. Of course this guy is a pro, I mentioned that in the initial post, but the wheel is also doing its part perfectly. To be objective we need to see the comparison of multiple wheels with the same rider and hear what he has to say about it.

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, Ro.man said:

Rawnei, you are speaking with voices in your head
I have never said that it is impossible on other wheels or that Inmotion is the only good brand out there. I'm just saying that what this guy is doing on this wheel is pretty insane. Of course this guy is a pro, I mentioned that in the initial post, but the wheel is also doing its part perfectly. To be objective we need to see the comparison of multiple wheels with the same rider and hear what he has to say about it.

Well you did drop a video and wrote "Just look on what this thing is capable of with right skills" which kinda insinuates that there is something special with this wheel in particular, you didn't put much emphasis on the rider.

[Ro.man]

@Rawnei, no worries ) 

I just never seen before anybody clearing logs like that on any EUC. That is insane. I doubt most people will use these capabilities in everyday riding (like they rarely use the capabilities of their fancy 4x4) but offroad capability is the feature nice to have at least. For example i was riding S18 on mostly green and blue lines moderately fast, jumping only when I want and having fun while being in control. But once in a while i can take a shortcut down (or up) the black DD and I don't know if I can make it. I would have much more confidence in exploration if the wheel had more torque, so it will climb and brake well. 

[stizl]

14 hours ago, Ro.man said:

@Rawnei, no worries ) 

I just never seen before anybody clearing logs like that on any EUC. That is insane. I doubt most people will use these capabilites…

I would have much more confidence in exploration if the wheel had more torque, so it will climb and brake well. 

I agree with both that the rider is definitely good and that the wheel helps. It’s not too difficult to clear one log on most wheels, but keeping upright and stable over back-to-back logs like that is much easier with good suspension and high torque.

The wheel has only brief moments of contact with the logs in some of those sequences and spends the rest of the time in the air. During these contact moments, the suspension helps rapidly achieve stability and traction, and the controller paired with high torque makes rapid corrections to keep the rider/wheel inverted pendulum upright. 

I have both an S18 and a Patton, and there’s no contest for me when it comes to keeping stable through subsequent hits, despite the larger wheel diameter of the S18. The larger mass of the Patton also helps, but not with jumping from flat, of course. I’m very curious to see how the 20” Adventure turns out though.

It’s really impressive how fast and well these newer, high-torque 16” wheels (Adventure, Patton, Extreme) react to brief moments of traction. I took a few slow-mo clips of myself jumping logs to check my jump timing and to see if I was leaning too far forwards or backwards in the air and was impressed to see the wheel effectively correcting the pitch angle at each brief touch of the tire to the logs, even while hunting for traction. You can see it clearly in one of the slow-mo clips in the 30sec video below where I jump a bit late and the wheel makes up for it.

Don’t expect anything like the skills/action in the log video above, ha.

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by stizl

[bpong]

On 9/18/2023 at 8:58 PM, stizl said:

That channel seems very pro-Begode to me and less likely to give other brands as much benefit of the doubt. In this case, since the Extreme is out the Adventure doesn’t stand a chance there. 

its not a problem... at the risk of being redundant,  to filter out hits on a particular string or text when using youtube to search the library,  use the search string "inmotion V14 -Wheel Good Time" - this will give you the results which ignore any Wheel Good Time hits.  

[novazeus]

my new v13 from inmotion direct is fantastic. they did something to the shocks and they are buttery smooth now.

for $3419.20, using new customer coupon from inmotion direct sales, is a no brainer. 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

29 minutes ago, novazeus said:

$3419.20

Wow that really is a neat price for a V13! Comes out to 3200€.

[novazeus]

44 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Wow that really is a neat price for a V13! Comes out to 3200€.

yeah, i'm not shilling for inmotion, although i am interested in a dealership here on the east coast. i'll hire some talented young guys to run it. like a pro shop for golf like i grew up in. i know lots of humans that would try them in a pro shop where they knew they could get instruction and repairs locally.

$3419.20 delivered, with whatever they did to the shocks, i almost want to buy another one.

[novazeus]

On 9/20/2023 at 7:44 AM, stizl said:

I agree with both that the rider is definitely good and that the wheel helps. It’s not too difficult to clear one log on most wheels, but keeping upright and stable over back-to-back logs like that is much easier with good suspension and high torque.

The wheel has only brief moments of contact with the logs in some of those sequences and spends the rest of the time in the air. During these contact moments, the suspension helps rapidly achieve stability and traction, and the controller paired with high torque makes rapid corrections to keep the rider/wheel inverted pendulum upright. 

I have both an S18 and a Patton, and there’s no contest for me when it comes to keeping stable through subsequent hits, despite the larger wheel diameter of the S18. The larger mass of the Patton also helps, but not with jumping from flat, of course. I’m very curious to see how the 20” Adventure turns out though.

It’s really impressive how fast and well these newer, high-torque 16” wheels (Adventure, Patton, Extreme) react to brief moments of traction. I took a few slow-mo clips of myself jumping logs to check my jump timing and to see if I was leaning too far forwards or backwards in the air and was impressed to see the wheel effectively correcting the pitch angle at each brief touch of the tire to the logs, even while hunting for traction. You can see it clearly in one of the slow-mo clips in the 30sec video below where I jump a bit late and the wheel makes up for it.

Don’t expect anything like the skills/action in the log video above, ha.

 

haha, that's great, but for me, nope. i broke my jeep traveling over spindly branches. i'll go around. u know, i'm sure riders realize, these youtube videos are all staged just like tv. u don't see the outtakes often. and here in the states a nearly severed toe will cost ten grand for three stitches to re-attached it, ask me how i know. God only knows what marty's final bill will be. i'm sure marty has great insurance, but take it from me, be 70 in april, they can patch u up, but ur never as good as when u left the womb.

what i'd like to see is u power out of a gopher tortoise hole!

[MadVlad]

On 9/25/2023 at 2:30 PM, novazeus said:

haha, that's great, but for me, nope. i broke my jeep traveling over spindly branches. i'll go around. u know, i'm sure riders realize, these youtube videos are all staged just like tv. u don't see the outtakes often. and here in the states a nearly severed toe will cost ten grand for three stitches to re-attached it, ask me how i know. God only knows what marty's final bill will be. i'm sure marty has great insurance, but take it from me, be 70 in april, they can patch u up, but ur never as good as when u left the womb.

what i'd like to see is u power out of a gopher tortoise hole!

True, its just like people that do dirt bikes, the older ones Ive met tend to have a lot of injuries. I met one that had every finger broken at least once, and then some wrist and leg fractures on top of that, plus ribs and collar bone etc. When you get older all those injuries come back to haunt you in a big way. I admire trail riders, jumpers, stunters and extreme riders, but I also know the price you pay sooner or later. I got my share of injuries from such activities and I agree, you never recover 100%. 

[Punxatawneyjoe]

 

[Jason McNeil]

Got some good news to share: after much soliciation & negotations, Inmotion has agreed to use the 50S battery cells on the V14 for our production, & other regions where requested. 

For concerns about comparative diminished cell cycle-life, I reached out to a couple of my industry contacts to see if they had a more comprehensive technical analysis of the 50S's properties, & received an incredible presentation packed with interesting graphs. 

• It's crazy that in all of the cycle-life tests, they're charging @ 6A. One has to wonder what the rationale was for that, time pressure?! Would one see even better results at a lower consecutive charge rates? In a 4p system, like the V14, this would be 24A/3.2KW of input power—obviously other components would not support this level if input charge current, but it's there at the cell level. 
• Capacity retention is 82% over 600 cycles @ 10A discharge.
• Even at 80W discharge/~22A, the capacity is still pretty respectable, with 3.7Ah!
• At high sustained discharge (100W), this cell is designed to run hot, 83°C cut-off. In the 'Thermal Abuse' test the cell is tested as high as 130°  
• There's this low temperature test, where they run the cell @ 20/30/40A in -20°C temperatures down to 1.5V?! Not sure what that's all about, are they suggesting that running the cell down to this level occasionally is alright? 
• I asked Inmotion to provide proof that the original GB spec V14 was able to charge at the 16A. They sent a graph showing that the temperature probes were triggering the BMS to go into protection mode from ~50% charge state @ 3A/pack or 12A system level. I really don't understand by what method the marketing came up with 16A charging with the GB cell, as there's no conceiveable scenario, I can think of, where this is attainable, with those cells.       

 

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Jason McNeil

[novazeus]

jason, after all u have been thru, i trust whatever u think is the safest. looking at those charts make my eyes bleed. way above my pay grade.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

This one is impressive.

 

 

[0000]

@Jason McNeil since you're in a position to influence cell choice (and have related business risk), I'd recommend making an account (to open attachments) at endless-sphere.com and following Pajda's thread testing various 18650 and 21700 cells for 1000 cycle discharge comparisons if you haven't already. His methodology and testing equipment are sufficiently accurate, professional, and credible IMO and the information provided is the best I've found publicly for free short of lucking out on academic studies with the battery cells of interest. It's just nice info to have/know even just as a reference.

Unfortunately he doesn't have any data on the 50S for a direct comparison in this thread, but has data on the Samsung 50E2, 50G1, and 50G2, the latter testing ongoing. These 3 cells perform similarly under 1C, 2C, and 3C with both the E2 and G1 sporting similar and very reasonable degradation rates at each tier (5A, 10A, 15A) after 1000 cycles. He charges at 0.5C or 2.5A/cell for these cells in all these tests.

Here's a partial screenshot of part of the data for a sample:

That being said, he collected data specifically on the Samsung 50S1 in a separate thread, and unfortunately it's not very useful/missing info as a direct comparison for these more EUC-relevant discharge rates. I assume the Adventure isn't drawing more than 3C/15A at any point considering the original 50G battery spec so really the change to the 50S is just to accommodate higher charge rates.

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

I asked Inmotion to provide proof that the original GB spec V14 was able to charge at the 16A. They sent a graph showing that the temperature probes were triggering the BMS to go into protection mode from ~50% charge state @ 3A/pack or 12A system level. I really don't understand by what method the marketing came up with 16A charging with the GB cell, as there's no conceivable scenario, I can think of, where this is attainable, with those cells.       

Positive spin, let's see... well it's great they have fantastic vendor QA to make sure customers aren't complaining about 50% range loss in 6 months! How'd I do?

In reality I guess the BMS would've halted the charge though and they would've just not looked great for the 16A claim otherwise.

Anyway 1C+ charging seems abusive, but I guess if the chemistry can handle it and still reasonably deliver on cycle life like the 2nd chart suggests then maybe it's fine. Thanks for the transparency.

Edit:

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

It's crazy that in all of the cycle-life tests, they're charging @ 6A. One has to wonder what the rationale was for that, time pressure?! Would one see even better results at a lower consecutive charge rates?

Oh yeah, forgot to say I think the 50S was designed for use in power tools and such so time = money being the impetus in construction. And yes, generally more heat = faster degradation. So it's probably safe to say the 50S chemistry was optimized for charge rate over battery longevity when compared to other high capacity cells like the 50E and 50G, although missing direct comparison data whose to say how far off. From Pajda's post, we only get 1 data point, the 50S died  in the 1C discharge test after 951 cycles.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Vanturion

[Jason McNeil]

9 hours ago, Vanturion said:

From Pajda's post, we only get 1 data point, the 50S died  in the 1C discharge test

Yeah, it was a valid concern, that thread is what prompted the additional inquiry into the cell's longevity traits.  Within that presentation, it has two datapoints of the DCIR prior & after the 250 cycle @ 25A test, 15.2mΩ & 17.7mΩ, respectively. All the graphs have linnear degradation, extrapolating the curves from 10A/20A/25A/45A cycle counts, it ought to be possible to infer that there's no reason why one would see rapid drop-off at lower average loads up to & past the 1,000 cycle count number. 

I don't believe there's a large dataset on the coulombic efficiency of cells in an Electric Unicycle over time, although this could be quite easily collected from the Apps deriving from the initial start voltage, current monitoring, & end voltage. These synthetic repeated cycle tests are in no way representational of 'real-world' usage in this application, with its pulsed power output, seldom ever reaching a high-powered cell's maximum capabilities, the margin is there if you need it!

IMO, the main requirements of any cell selection ought to be: 

• The cell must be inherently safe, with a large margin of maximum power output 
• It ought to have >80% capacity retention, of daily riding use, after 3 years
• Should be able to operate in a wide range of ambinent conditions, from subzero to tropical environments 
• If a manufacturer is claiming a specific charging rate/output power rating, then the underlying cell must support this, not just at the outer fringes of 'acceptable limits'
• The cell must come from a major supplier, with consistency in specifications & quality—a single bad cell in a pack renders the whole machine useless
• Manufacturers must try to build a better understanding of the properties of cells they're working with, they are not all created equal, when programming BMS/firmware. A 45°C cut-off limit might be appropriate for a 50E, but a 50S can quite happily operate 20°C higher, without ill-effects.

Finally, when it comes to the incremental costs of choosing one cell over another, it's pretty trivial, we're talking about $1/cell difference when purchasing in volume... Besides the human life risk factor, on a purely economic utility model, a single fire event would more than offset an extra ~$150 in input components costs. With the history of those events, it seems crazy not to. 

[Paul g]

6 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Yeah, it was a valid concern, that thread is what prompted the additional inquiry into the cell's longevity traits.  Within that presentation, it has two datapoints of the DCIR prior & after the 250 cycle @ 25A test, 15.2mΩ & 17.7mΩ, respectively. All the graphs have linnear degradation, extrapolating the curves from 10A/20A/25A/45A cycle counts, it ought to be possible to infer that there's no reason why one would see rapid drop-off at lower average loads up to & past the 1,000 cycle count number. 

I don't believe there's a large dataset on the coulombic efficiency of cells in an Electric Unicycle over time, although this could be quite easily collected from the Apps deriving from the initial start voltage, current monitoring, & end voltage. These synthetic repeated cycle tests are in no way representational of 'real-world' usage in this application, with its pulsed power output, seldom ever reaching a high-powered cell's maximum capabilities, the margin is there if you need it!

IMO, the main requirements of any cell selection ought to be: 

• The cell must be inherently safe, with a large margin of maximum power output 
• It ought to have >80% capacity retention, of daily riding use, after 3 years
• Should be able to operate in a wide range of ambinent conditions, from subzero to tropical environments 
• If a manufacturer is claiming a specific charging rate/output power rating, then the underlying cell must support this, not just at the outer fringes of 'acceptable limits'
• The cell must come from a major supplier, with consistency in specifications & quality—a single bad cell in a pack renders the whole machine useless
• Manufacturers must try to build a better understanding of the properties of cells they're working with, they are not all created equal, when programming BMS/firmware. A 45°C cut-off limit might be appropriate for a 50E, but a 50S can quite happily operate 20°C higher, without ill-effects.

Finally, when it comes to the incremental costs of choosing one cell over another, it's pretty trivial, we're talking about $1/cell difference when purchasing in volume... Besides the human life risk factor, on a purely economic utility model, a single fire event would more than offset an extra ~$150 in input components costs. With the history of those events, it seems crazy not to. 

      Thank you @Jason McNeil for being a force for good. It’s not only you that had doubts about the claimed InMotion recharge speed. It’s only another reminder that we should never let the guard dawn with them at any time and we should never trust them and their claims. As the battery tech is nowhere near being safe yet, it remains a big issue we must never lose site of.

[bpong]

since the V14 has removeable battery packs,  what is preventing inmotion from offering to the customer,  a choice of battery pack chemistries ?  50G, 50S, etc,... why is this left to a retailer to approach the manufacturer ?  what this means is that customers who want this version of the V14,  will have to purchase it from an online store or a select few physical stores who have access to this 'version' of the V14.   this does not help other local retailers unless inmotion makes this choice available to ALL retail stores and consequently,  future customers of the V14...

[0000]

11 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

All the graphs have linnear degradation, extrapolating the curves from 10A/20A/25A/45A cycle counts, it ought to be possible to infer that there's no reason why one would see rapid drop-off at lower average loads up to & past the 1,000 cycle count number. 

You would think, but I have to push back a little on this just for academic accuracy as I remember Pajda plotted the lifecycle of the 50S in his 5C test considering Samsung rated the 50S for 25A (5C) continuous discharge. IIRC it started to demonstrate an exponential decay **edit** at exactly 288 cycles and he halted the test on the 289th where it started to dive off the metaphorical cliff.

That said, for anyone reading the 5C test has zero applicability to the Adventure or any other EUC on the market as none of them are operating at 134V * 100A = 13,400 Watts, especially continuously as Jason explained above - these tests are largely artificial comparisons that don't reflect real world use and conditions. In other words, pretty much battery nerd stuff.

What is somewhat more applicable are the discharge tests in the 1C/2C/3C discharge range where most performance wheels operate, and the value of these kinds of comparisons are basically only in the direct comparison to other cells since the concern is "did we spec the best cell for the application."

Happy to say Pajda generously shared his excel data with me and so I plotted the 1C discharge comparison:

TL;DR: 50S = slightly more better in this artificial lab test.

Some other thoughts and clarifications for battery nerds:

• Every 50 cycles Pajda ran a 0.2C nominal capacity test which doesn't stress/heat the batteries allowing them to cool, I removed these low stress capacity cycles from the dataset
• Interestingly you can see in the data how much more the 50E and 50G cells were affected by temperature/heating even at 1C in the capacity spikes (temporary capacity healing if you will) every 50 cycles
  • If you only look at the spikes for each cell (which are more relevant than the rest of the data as no one is continuously cycling, that is riding-charging-riding-charging without breaks) the capacity degradation is almost identical between all 3 cells with the 50S having the advantage in most of the cycles with the 50E/50G only gaining the advantage after ~800 cycles or so in these artificial tests.
• Some lingering battery nerd doubts I had was cleared up, the 50S looks like a great fit given the data on hand, particularly accounting for use in less temperate climates.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Vanturion
a couple language tweaks for accuracy

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, bpong said:

a choice of battery pack chemistries ?  50G, 50S, etc,... why is this left to a retailer to approach the manufacturer ?  what this means is that customers who want this version of the V14,  will have to purchase it from an online store or a select few physical stores who have access to this 'version' of the V14.   this does not help other local retailers unless Inmotion makes this choice available to ALL retail stores and consequently,  future customers of the V14...

Perhaps it would be nice if Inmotion can give a response as to why the 50S cell option is not being offer to all Adventure buying customers. 

[Punxatawneyjoe]

21 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Perhaps it would be nice if Inmotion can give a response as to why the 50S cell option is not being offer to all Adventure buying customers. 

Or we could just all buy them from Jason since he had the fortitude to demand better for his customers....