Cerbera's Master V2.5 thread

[Cerbera]

You see I'd call that 'conflicting information' ! They could avoid confusion by adding a full stop in the right place !

Edited February 6 by Cerbera

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

You see I'd call that 'conflicting information' !

Thanks. The photo is very helpful.

Not at all.

That says it is indeed a tubeless tire.

However, if your rim is not designed for a tubeless tire, just use an inner tube.

I guess it is telling people that their tubeless tire can be use on tube-type rim too, a long as you use an inner tube with it.

[woke rider]

How do you keep from bending your rim @Cerbera?

[Cerbera]

48 minutes ago, iwantmymtv said:

How do you keep from bending your rim @Cerbera?

Well I'm quite keen not to do that, and aware that my previously low pressure risked it, I don't do much in the way of bonking up anything but the shallowest kerbs, and certainly don't do any big jumps that would put it at increased risk of deforming. However, in the 14 months I rode with the CST even at those low low pressures it still felt incredibly stiff and tightly fitting to the wheel, and I never had any problems with it falling off in-ride.

That's why I am asking further up this thread what pressures people are running their street tyres at on their Masters - I have no real frame of reference if it's not a CST ! Until I hear any different I am starting off with 25 psi, although there is virtually no give at all in that tyre if you hand-squeeze it at that pressure.

Today is NOT a good day to be out on a new tyre testing - we have 40 mph winds on the go right now ! I'm doing it anyway, but might be sketchy !

Edited February 6 by Cerbera

[woke rider]

Oh, sorry, I meant how do you keep from bending and denting your rim while working with those metal tools to mount your new tire?

[Cerbera]

53 minutes ago, iwantmymtv said:

Oh, sorry, I meant how do you keep from bending and denting your rim while working with those metal tools to mount your new tire?

Oh I see - er... it just doesn't bend or dent when you lever against it ! It is very strong as far as I can see ! I think it would be a very inferior and unhelpful rim that couldn't stand up to standard MC tyre levers, 'cos those silly little plastic ones ain't gonna get you anywhere with tyres like these ! And you should see the irons Roger EUC uses - proper whacking great lumps of iron, and he changes tyres with those on Begodes every other day !

Edited February 6 by Cerbera

[woke rider]

An inmotion V10 rim would have bent for sure if using those tools. Beautiful new tire, by the way!

[Panzer04]

I run 40PSI in my street tyre, but I like bonking things and doing smaller jumps, so it's mostly in aid of protecting the rim. No issues on hard street terrain at that pressure, mostly good offroad as well except for leafy trails (but I think that would be hard on a street tyre without knobs regardless)

I would try even more pressure, but my tyre lists 40psi max

[Unipilot69]

The tubeless tires have  stiffer sidewalls than tube types. You can safely run tubes in tubeless tires but should not run tube type tires tubeless. And Begode rims I would not trust to run tubeless. The lip is too shallow. I did manage to mount my cht 6004 tire tubeless on my RS. I rode it around the block and that was it. The ride was fine but I didn't want to have a rapid deflation while riding at speed. The cht 6004 tire I have is a tube type.

[Cerbera]

Right then guys - what's goin' on here - I had a HORRIBLE time out on that new tyre today - couldn't get out the damn drive, after I deemed it too dangerous to try further !!

I had always wondered what people meant by the term 'tramlining' but today I sure found out what that is, and it is making my Master absolutely unrideable !! I can't f**king turn right !! lols....

Christ, if I thought I was on a knife edge with the CST, this was in a whole different league. - the alignment seems fine - in that that line they print on the tyre is an even distance from the hub all the way round - it is seated evenly, and I started off at 25 PSI, but then having almost immediately failed to steer it and almost crashed, dropped it to 15, and then 10, which only improved things a tiny degree ! It seems ...'OK' running dead straight, but as soon as I lean / try and turn in either direction it just goes mental and I have to tense every muscle in my body (and do the unprofessional 'arms' !) to keep it upright - that can't be right can it ? I was an expert rider yesterday, and today was worse than stepping on a wheel for the very first time like I did 10 years ago !!

I have to say my first instinct is to get that CST straight back on there, and sell the City Extra, but does anyone think it is worth persevering with - SO many people have reported street tyres being superior to CSTs, and yet this was just.... AWFUL !!

Edited February 6 by Cerbera

[Punxatawneyjoe]

10 hours ago, iwantmymtv said:

how do you keep from bending and denting your rim while working with those metal tools

The only people denting/bending their rim during a tire change are people using screwdrivers or not pushing the tire into the drop center enough and using the correct lubrication. If you look at his picture he is using tire "spoons" which have a rounded shaft as well as a flat "spoon" type end with rounded edges meant to not mar or bend the rims. So using the correct tools and the correct method with the appropriate amount of lubrication (dish soap and water) you should never bend or even mark the rim no matter how thin it is. If you really want to be cautious you can wrap the contact points in a few layers of masking tape.

[null]

16 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

I had always wondered what people meant by the term 'tramlining' but today I sure found out what that is, and it is making my Master absolutely unrideable !! I can't f**king turn right !! lols....

You're probably just not used to it yet, apparently people who have only ridden knobby tires have problems turning with street tires.

It's maybe because you can actually feel the turn and you're not used to it. Give it some more time, feeling the ground and motion is a useful extra info IMO, and you can use it for more precise maneuvering than with an off-road tire.

I have a few thousand Km on knobby tires, so I can compare, and on pavement a street tire feels and controls so much sharper. Where you feel a street tire "tram lines" (it really doesn't) I feel a knobby "fall to the side" (while barely turning).

Edited February 6 by null

[Punxatawneyjoe]

10 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

but does anyone think it is worth persevering

I have not tried that exact tire but i have Michelin pilot 2's on my v11 and v13 and it looks to be almost the same tread pattern as well as roundness so it should perform about the same. The only difference might be treadwear or how hard/soft the compound is which should only effect traction. I would say running any lower than 20 psi you would loose the "roundness" of the tire and you don't want that. The contact pattern would be a massive oval. I run mine at 32 psi and i am 200 geared up. I found it's a little "knife edgey" but as soon as you learn to relax and trust it, it is super smooth no matter what angle you lean it over to. And cornering is amazing compared to the CST. Good luck , my advice would be to give it some time and you will love it.

[Cerbera]

Hmmmf. OK, thanks guys, I will pop the air back into it, and possibly some more on top, persevere for a few days, and let you know how I am getting on. I suppose it doesn't help that my drive features quite a lot of camber and angles, and there were 40 mph winds today, which weren't helping - I was just shocked I couldn't get right on it and ride into town like 1000 times before !! You know - I was expecting a slightly different ride-feel - I wasn't expecting to be sent back to square 1 !! 

Edited February 7 by Cerbera

[Frolic0415]

44 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

The only people denting/bending their rim during a tire change are people using screwdrivers or not pushing the tire into the drop center enough and using the correct lubrication. If you look at his picture he is using tire "spoons" which have a rounded shaft as well as a flat "spoon" type end with rounded edges meant to not mar or bend the rims. So using the correct tools and the correct method with the appropriate amount of lubrication (dish soap and water) you should never bend or even mark the rim no matter how thin it is. If you really want to be cautious you can wrap the contact points in a few layers of masking tape.

I bent my V12 HS rim pretty easily with metal tire levers aha

[Punxatawneyjoe]

34 minutes ago, Frolic0415 said:

I bent my V12 HS rim pretty easily

I didn't say you couldn't bend a rim with tire spoons, i said you have done something wrong if you bend the rim. I have put thousands of tires on rims in my lifetime.

[techyiam]

6 hours ago, Cerbera said:

I started off at 25 PSI, but then having almost immediately failed to steer it and almost crashed, dropped it to 15, and then 10, which only improved things a tiny degree ! It seems ...'OK' running dead straight, but as soon as I lean / try and turn in either direction it just goes mental and I have to tense every muscle in my body (and do the unprofessional 'arms' !) to keep it upright - that can't be right can it ?

That is exactly what I experienced when I tried someone's EX30 shod with a street tire. At the time, I blamed it on the wheel.

It is not due to gyro effects. It is not that the wheel was unwilling to lean.

But when I tried to turn, the wheel seems to lean way too easily and I lose control and is constantly fighting not to crash.

That was a horrible experience.

However, the owner of the wheel had absolutely no problem riding it. Crazy.

I think I need to test ride a stock EX30.

I look forward to your resolution of your street tire (City Extra) problem.

[Planemo]

Exactly the problems I had after fitting a K66 to my EX30. Went back to a Kenda knobby - perfect.

I get that wheels will handle and feel different with different tyres. And that anyone, with time, can become accustomed. But tramlining is not rider induced and it was very prominent as soon as I got on the wheel with the K66, it even picked up on the road camber of my side street. I had the same issue with a Michelin Pilot sport on my MSX and that was coming from the 'street' 5102 which I felt handled brilliantly, and very neutral.

Having given 2 different MC street tyres on 2 different wheels a go, I'm personally done with them. But many folk run them..so..

[Cerbera]

Imagine if you had spent 10 years learning piano, and then every time you had to play a different one you lost all your skills and had to start again... I suspect the enthusiasm might wear off after a while ! And I think that is what I am having here a bit. I didn't mind totally re-learning to ride in the move between MS3 and Master, but having done that for a year, really not sure I can be arsed to go back to square 1 again !! that CST in the corner sits there, looking... reassuringly familiar...

But no, I will have another go on the City Xtra today and see if any aspect of it is marginally less horrible than it was yesterday !

 

[null]

8 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

But no, I will have another go on the City Xtra today and see if any aspect of it is marginally less horrible than it was yesterday !

Lean into the turn, don't be shy

[Planemo]

I hear you. I would have definately persevered with the K66/Pilot if the only difference was completely different handling (which they both were) because as I say we can learn to ride most tyres given time. But I wasnt prepared to put up with the tramlining. It was frustrating and tbh at times felt downright dangerous. On several occasions the wheel twisted so much on certain cracks I felt like I was playing russian roulette. After a 60 mile ride (at various pressures) I just wanted to get off the damn thing, I was super angry with it. Especially given it was a new to me wheel and it was only my second ride on it. The 1st was ruined by the equally shite CST. I was ready to throw in the towel but fitted the Kenda and it was a night and day difference. Pleasure was restored.

I cant quite explain why I totally hate MC road tyres on EUC's but they seem to just really not work for me. For sure though, if you are prepared to give yours a good few goes and can get past the 'I just want to throw this wheel in the skip' feeling you might be ok with it.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

I cant quite explain why I totally hate MC road tyres on EUC's but they seem to just really not work for me. For sure though, if you are prepared to give yours a good few goes and can get past the 'I just want to throw this wheel in the skip' feeling you might be ok with it.

I almost pulled the trigger on a Michelin street tire for my Abrams.

Now I am in a quandary.

Regarding the Heidenau K66 tire, was it a front or rear tire that you have tried?

Edited February 7 by techyiam

[timmytool]

While dont ride a master of any variant I did change my tyre to one with a very different profile, I couldn't ride it to safe my life. Went down to the a local carpark and practiced cornering of all different varieties, aka a full skills session. Once I was happy I could do it without killing myself I upped the speed and then different surfaces gradients cambers etc. By the half charge point I could ride competently while still feeling uneasy, one or 2 charges later I was 100% again.

It becomes easier to adapt the more you adapt but its even faster when you give your brain the data it needs to understand the new dynamics of the ride. Just because its hard dont nope out, give it ~500km/300miles with an active skill session before ruling it out.

[Cerbera]

Righty - I have FINALLY got a break in the previously constant rain to try some more driveway tests of that new tyre. And things are considerably better today !

Initially I had gone for 20 PSI, then, when it was terrifying, immediately dropped that to 15, and then 10, at which point it remained fairly unrideable, and I was finding camber incredibly difficult to resist... in fact that first day I couldn't resist it in places and railroaded myself straight into fences ! That was a bad day for me and EUCs because it put me off trying again for a few days. I have been humming and haa'ing about whether to just give up and put the knobby back on, but with the break in the rain, and little bit of sun, and slightly annoyed at the knowledge I would have a £60 tyre I didn't use if I abandoned it, I thought it was only fair to give it one more go, just to check if it was fractionally less horrible than last time !

For today's session I pumped it back up and beyond to 30 PSI, and did some pendulum tests in the kitchen, which seemed fine, and so I ventured out on to my uneven slope-y tarmac driveway. And...

...well it was much better than before. Still squirly, and of a totally different characteristi8c to the knobby, but no longer scarily so, and whilst I could still feel it tramlining and pulling in the same places I found myself better able to resist it.

So, like @timmytool above - not feeling quite safe enough to immediately attempt my normal run into town or country parks on a busy Saturday, but feeling confident enough to leave the damn drive, next step is also the same as his - find a car park and rinse it when the shops close until skills are back up to par !!! It is encouraging to feel I am already not back at the beginning... it is only adjustment required to existing techniques, rather than abandonment of them, and having to learn new ones from scratch...

I can already start to feel why the street tyre might be the better feeling ride in the long run when I am more fully used to it...

 

Edited February 10 by Cerbera

[Planemo]

Good to hear that things are getting better. I tried my K66 between 20 and 40psi every 5psi and the tramlining never changed that much. I hope it works out for you, I still have my £60 K66 paperweight in the shed which does indeed annoy me no end every time I glimpse it. As @timmytool says, I reckon you need to spend a good 300 miles with any change of tyre but I simply didn't have the patience for it. Part of that though is the fact my rides are precious, I don't ever ride near my home so it's always a drive to hook up with others and it's always a full day out. I just felt that the tramlining was never going to get any better despite how much I may have adapted to the other handling characteristics which I am sure I could have done given time. Part of my decision to go back to the knobby was that I'm really not unhappy with the Kenda in any way, the additional puncture protection of an MC tyre was really only my primary focus. As I say, I hope it works out for you.