Police offers just told me it's 500$+ fine to ride EUC?

[techyiam]

@ElectronxCycles

Were you riding on the main roads earlier before the police encounter? Or were you riding in bike paths, bike lanes?

[KiwiMark]

 I live in New Zealand.  Here my e-bike, e-scooter & e-wheel are all illegal.  It is true that e-bikes are legal and there are many sold and used here, but the regulations say that they can only have up to 300W going to the motor and my e-bike has a Bafang Ultra motor which is rated at 1,000W continuous - that is over 3 times the legally allowed motor power.  There are legal scooters too, but they also must have no more than 300W and mine has 2 x 1,000W - that is over 6 times the legally allowed motor power.  I know of no legal endorsement for an e-wheel, they just aren't common enough to have anything written into the law about them.  There are rental e-bikes & e-scooters which are legal, there are of course no rental EUCs.  What can I do?

What I do is this: I ride what I want where & when I want while simultaneously giving zero effs about the legality.  I've yet to have any police officer give a damn about what I'm riding.  I would argue that it is very much to the benefit of the environment that I ride small electric vehicles, essentially powered by the sun.  I have no car, but I live in a motorhome - should I drive my motorhome and run the 5.9L Cummins turbo charged diesel instead?  The motorhome is 28 years old, so that diesel motor isn't going to be as environmentally friendly as a new motor would be either.  I have ~1,500 watts of solar panels on the roof of my motorhome, the electricity generated from those panels is what recharges my PEVs.  If I did get grief about riding illegal PEVs, I wonder if the newspapers would be interested in writing about how authorities are discouraging greener transport options?

[Funky]

8 hours ago, KiwiMark said:

What I do is this: I ride what I want where & when I want while simultaneously giving zero effs about the legality.  I've yet to have any police officer give a damn about what I'm riding.

Hell yeah bro, i do the same. Doh in my country we have zero laws about euc and how/where they ride. I simply use my EUC the same way i did my bicycle. Riding mostly on pavements/sidewalks.

8 hours ago, KiwiMark said:

I wonder if the newspapers would be interested in writing about how authorities are discouraging greener transport options?

I think it would be great paper.

8 hours ago, KiwiMark said:

but the regulations say that they can only have up to 300W

Just a random number "they" took and put in the "law". Not knowing how PEV's work and so on. EUC's need at least 1000W, so it can keep the user balanced. So the user don't overpower the device so easily. Same thing for scooters 300W is kinda low, most of the "good ones" have 300W++

Simply dumb law made by some dipshits. In my book it can be ignored. They simply want the very, very weak performing scooters in the wild.. That's why the 300W "limit". F that. If the device is sold in that country and it has 350-3000W motor - i will use it. Otherwise stop selling "illegal" products.

[RoboFixIt]

I'm planing on taking a trip over to the police station sometime this week to get answers. XD

[Funky]

17 minutes ago, ElectronxCycles said:

I'm planing on taking a trip over to the police station sometime this week to get answers. XD

Pro tip doh.. Do it without the euc.  Or it may stay there.. You know, the daylight robbery.. And be a karen and ask for whatever is in the charge. Some secretary in "welcome" stand will know shit..  

Best thing you could do is call them and make appointment or something. If you simply walk in there for a "talk" they will escort you right out. You know they are busy, etc.. No time for you.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Funky

[KiwiMark]

6 hours ago, Funky said:

Just a random number "they" took and put in the "law". Not knowing how PEV's work and so on. EUC's need at least 1000W, so it can keep the user balanced. So the user don't overpower the device so easily. Same thing for scooters 300W is kinda low, most of the "good ones" have 300W++

Simply dumb law made by some dipshits. In my book it can be ignored. They simply want the very, very weak performing scooters in the wild.. That's why the 300W "limit". F that. If the device is sold in that country and it has 350-3000W motor - i will use it. Otherwise stop selling "illegal" products.

Yeah, I have zero interest in a scooter with 300W, there are more powerful ones sold locally, but I imported mine (Aliexpress) because it was a LOT cheaper.  I bought my e-bike locally but being an e-MTB the seller could easily claim that it isn't for street use, I've never even heard of police here checking on what the wattage of an e-bike is.  300W would be ridiculous for an EUC, but no one has made ANY rules here for EUCs, I doubt that they are even on the radar.

This country isn't bad for crime, but even so I'm pretty sure that the police are busy enough with more important stuff than someone riding around on an EUC or on scooters that might have more than 300W.  However, there will always be interest in anyone putting others in danger - so I will always slow down near pedestrians or other riders, it is never a good idea to go past others at silly speeds.  Being an idiot and scaring others by zipping past super fast would be the easiest way to prompt the authorities to regulate through legislation.

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 17 by PLEASE_DELETE

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, MetricUSA said:

And why everyone of you riding passed 40 km/h to stop immediately

I don't think your fellow countrymen are buying Sherman Max to ride 40 km/h, I suspect they are riding more like 40+ mph. 

What doesn't help the cause are races like the NYC Broadway Bomb, and the posting of videos of such events.

[MetricUSA]

On 10/21/2022 at 10:33 PM, Cerbera said:

I don't think it is BS. I suspect he's right.

We don't have the numbers yet to demand legality, and most Government agencies find it much easier and more convenient to just globally ban something on public highways than create or alter an existing a regulation structure to accommodate it. I read the other day that it was recently 'officially' confirmed that they are illegal for street use in all states across America too, 

Which is why we all have to write to our congress person and representative about adding EUC to e-bike class 3 classification!... 

And which also means all you people riding over 40 km/h should stop immediately. You're only making it worse for all of us!!! 

[Funky]

2 hours ago, MetricUSA said:

Which is why we all have to write to our congress person and representative about adding EUC to e-bike class 3 classification!... 

And which also means all you people riding over 40 km/h should stop immediately. You're only making it worse for all of us!!! 

I personally can't wait when laws/rules will be made. All you with cars riders GTFO of streets.  

Enjoy riding your Master Pro's, S22, V13, so on.. ON sidewalks, bike lanes.  

And i finally will get my "light/small" wheels made. Because all "big" wheels will be banned.  Ahh, what a great day that will be.

 

 

Or best case there will be 2 classes of wheels. One that need riding license, insurance, so on to ride with cars... (Still doubt you will be allowed to ride with cars. Because come on you are riding one-wheel/small device at god knows what speeds.. If you think you will be allowed - stop smoking the ganja)

And second class like E-scooters - very slow speeds, power, so on..

And i personally will continue riding my 18xl, as i have been doing. Not caring about these laws/rules. I may check on them.. And if they are stupid - i'll ignore them. (Because my case - i can ignore them. I already don't ride faster than 40km/h ever, don't ride with cars. And we don't have police around.)  

[VikB]

On 10/21/2022 at 6:38 PM, ElectronxCycles said:

I was just picking up some Chipotle here when 2 cops come in line and say I could get a fine for riding anywhere in town even Bike Paths? Then they said I could only drive on private property and all I could say is "I never heard that before... Thank you officer"

Anyway I got it on video maybe I should upload it but I think it's BS?

Riding an EUC is not legal in BC. There are a number of ways you can be fined depending on what you are doing at the time and how the police officer is feeling. The only place you can ride an EUC without issue is on private property.

All that said the police are mostly ignoring EUC riders in BC. If you ride it like a bicycle [speeds/locations/signaling] and wear safety gear I think you are unlikely to have an issue. If you ride an EUC like a motorcycle on the road and/or ride dangerously [high speed bike path or cutting people off, etc...] you'll end up with problems.

[LeGiroquoi]

Here in Quebec many got tickets for riding EUCs, but they all got dismissed in court ! Yeah!

We don't have RCMP here compared to the ROC, but the local polices used two law articles: 1- using a "toy vehicle" on public street. But the jugde said that an EUC is clearly NOT a toy, but a real mean of transportation, therefore, if the Transport ministry is late updating to those new ways of transportation, it is not to the plaintif to pay for the government lack of regulation. So the guy won and they don't give tickets anymore on this argument .

Second, they tried to use an article stating the guy used a vehicle which is exempt of immatriculation, like using a tractor. But the list of those vehicles is clearly stated and described in the transportation laws. And the EUC is not in the list, so the judge said it doesn't apply, so the plaintif won again..

 

So as of now in Quebec no police give tickets. Well maybe some still do, maybe unaware of those precedents, or hoping the poor guy will just pay without knowing he could win a contestation..

 

It's a shame that happens in BC @ElectronxCycles, which is know to be very progressive. I rented an EUC when I visite a few months ago. Wonderful city to commute on a wheel!

Now I wonder what the RCMP could do. Federal laws of transportation are about interprovincial traffic. And knowing how stupid, useless and ineffective the federal level is, I doubt they would even come with a positive legislation on this..

So I don't think the RCMP would have any right to give you tickets

Edited October 27, 2022 by Eric plam

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, VikB said:

The only place you can ride an EUC without issue is on private property.

I don't believe this is true. 

In Feburary 2021, Federal law ban e-bikes in Canada that are capable of exceeding the speed of 32 km/h, even for off road use. The feds lumped those e-bikes together with the restricted dirt bikes, and ATV's. However, euc's, e-scooters, and esk8 were not excluded. Hence, euc's are not illegal to ride off-road unless the owners of the properties prohibit them. But you can still legally import euc's, I think. In contrast, e-bikes that are capable going 32 km/h are illegal to manufacture or to be imported into Canada. I have contacted e-bike companies in the US. They refuse to to sell their powerful e-bikes to Canadians. 

2 hours ago, VikB said:

All that said the police are mostly ignoring EUC riders in BC.

That is probably true, especially for the eight municipalities that have legalized e-kick-scooters. Because of the OP's experience downtown, I have a feeling riding euc's in certain areas of downtown Vancouver could be risky. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by techyiam

[Daiko]

In California PEVs are legal, 50 states illegal is simply lie. DO NOT trust random redditor, or redditors at all.

They are classified as motorized vehicle that top speed is limited to 28 mph. You can treat your PEVs as a class 3 eBike. Then it is up to the city to adopt it or ban it. In all the cities I routine, I have printed policy in my backpack so whenever I need to show someone, it is there. 

One example: https://www.beverlyhills.org/departments/policedepartment/policedivisions/traffic/electricscooters/ Speed limit 25 mph, if there is a bike lane you can go up to state limit 28 mph. Cops dont care if you go 25 or 35 as long as you are not doing 50+ on a Begode. I've never stopped by an official when I am on public road. Make sure you have front light and brake light. Same bike law applies to PEVs if there is no bike lane. You ride on the street sharing with cars. Most cars go 35-40 in speed zone of 30 so I feel much comfortable to ride 30-35 on PEVs than a 20mph ebikes.

State and national parks are no-no. I did ride in the parks and rangers are fine but traffic control people stopped me who was not an official.

[Daiko]

13 hours ago, Funky said:

I personally can't wait when laws/rules will be made. All you with cars riders GTFO of streets.  

Enjoy riding your Master Pro's, S22, V13, so on.. ON sidewalks, bike lanes.  

And i finally will get my "light/small" wheels made. Because all "big" wheels will be banned.  Ahh, what a great day that will be.

 

 

Or best case there will be 2 classes of wheels. One that need riding license, insurance, so on to ride with cars... (Still doubt you will be allowed to ride with cars. Because come on you are riding one-wheel/small device at god knows what speeds.. If you think you will be allowed - stop smoking the ganja)

And second class like E-scooters - very slow speeds, power, so on..

And i personally will continue riding my 18xl, as i have been doing. Not caring about these laws/rules. I may check on them.. And if they are stupid - i'll ignore them. (Because my case - i can ignore them. I already don't ride faster than 40km/h ever, don't ride with cars. And we don't have police around.)  

In the US, you'd better see more than one biker in the whole day. Biking in the US is a luxury sport, not a commute method. I only saw some rich white guys riding their $6,000+ carbon fiber bike over the weekend here. When I done work, I may see max 2 bike/scooter commuters on my way home. So very different scenarios.

Same as cars, Americans/Canadians have to get FULL SIZE SUVS (bigger than your moms house) to "PROTECT MY CHILDREN!" from car accident. No they just try to hide something small down there.

[LeGiroquoi]

10 hours ago, techyiam said:

I don't believe this is true. 

In Feburary 2021, Federal law ban e-bikes in Canada that are capable of exceeding the speed of 32 km/h, even for off road use. The feds lumped those e-bikes together with the restricted dirt bikes, and ATV's. However, euc's, e-scooters, and esk8 were not excluded. Hence, euc's are not illegal to ride off-road unless the owners of the properties prohibit them. But you can still legally import euc's, I think. In contrast, e-bikes that are capable going 32 km/h are illegal to manufacture or to be imported into Canada. I have contacted e-bike companies in the US. They refuse to to sell their powerful e-bikes to Canadians. 

That is probably true, especially for the eight municipalities that have legalized e-kick-scooters. Because of the OP's experience downtown, I have a feeling riding euc's in certain areas of downtown Vancouver could be risky. 

Indeed the federal law did  put some regulations on ebikes, but in 2021, way before the rise of EUCs and the development of good bikes, so it is already outdated, like the federal is in almost every aspect 😂 (but this is not the subject here😊)

It doesn't even describe the EUC, so as of now it is not technically illegal to use them. But it will depend on every province juridictions. As I said in a previous post, wheelers in Quebec have won two major court rulings, making the police unable to give tickets. 

Of course this can change fast. So that why I personally urge the wheelers of every province to regroup and pressure the elected officials to regularise the use of EUCs. 

But that implies to have rules, speed limits and I'm sure, motor size and power limits. But for that reason, it is very hard for us to have the community here to speak in a united voice. We are strongly divided. Many don't want regulations that could essentially ban the Master pro type of EUCs because they are way too fast and powerful for any government liking.

I'm more on the opinion that we should introduce some kind of limitations. Of course the 500w motor ebike law is outdated, but maybe we could suggest 3000 and a speed limit of 35kmh? People could of course overpass this at their own risk of getting a ticket...but at least it is better that having EUCs entirely banned.

It could open a precedent on transportation laws, at least have it mentioned in the law, thus it could be updated every like 10-15years to match the evolution of wheels and popularity.span widgetspan widget

Edited October 27, 2022 by Eric plam

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, Eric plam said:

Indeed the federal law did  put some regulations on ebikes, but in 2021, way before the rise of EUCs and the development of good bikes, so it is already outdated, like the federal is in almost every aspect 😂 (but this is not the subject here😊)

In Canada, e-bikes are currently regulated under the prescribed class of Motorcycle, under the Canada Motor Vehicle Act. However, if an e-bike is not capable of exceeding 32 km/h in a distance of 1.6 km under motor assist, and it does not has resemblance of prescribed classes of vehicles under the Act, then it is exempted from being a prescribed class, and thus is no longer regulated by the federal government.

Electric Kick Scooters, as well as other PEV's, except e-bikes, do no fall in any of the prescribed classes of vehicles under the Canada Motor Vehicle Act, and hence are not regulated in Canada. This implies euc's are also not regulated by the federal government. 

Whether unregulated PEV's are legal to ride or not on roads and sidewalks rest with the provincial laws, and municipal laws.

Transport Canada, with the help of CBSA (Customs) enforce the Canada Motor Vehicle Act. Transport Canada goes after Canadian Manufacturers, and Importers, not the individuals who operate the vehicles. CSBA helps Transport Canada to stop illegal vehicles from being imported into Canada.

Since euc's are not regulated, they can be imported without scrutiny. For e-bikes, it is no longer that simple since February 2021. The importer must either convince Transport Canada that their e-bikes are not regulated, or go through the process of complying with the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations. Yup, you can say good bye to powerful e-bikes. If you want a powerful bike, buy a LSM, or a motorcycle.

In BC, Electric Kick Scooters are legal in eight municipalities under a Pilot Program. The intent was to find out how PEV's should be regulated. Unfortunately, euc's are not currently included in the program. And euc's are illegal only because of the provincial laws. The police are the ones who commonly enforce the provincial and municipal laws. And the police goes after the operator of the motor vehicle, not the store who sold it to you. Fortunately in BC, for the most parts, it appears the police have not been enforcing the law, except for some areas in downtown Vancouver recently (this is just speculation based on online chatter). 

I think Transport Canada doesn't want to regulate PEV's if their motor assisted top speed is 32 km/h or less.

And I think the provinces want the same thing, and to keep PEV's at 32 km/h or less.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by techyiam

[LeGiroquoi]

Indeed. EUCs are not regulated by federal laws. Then in depends on local legislation.

As I said in Quebec police has no valid legal option to issue tickets. Hope it's the same elsewhere .

But what I wanted to say is that Euc riders should organise in a lobby organisation to regularise the legislation to include EUCs, even if it could ban some of the biggest, powerful wheels.

Or we keep it that way in a gray zone far west style. As of now everybody seems to benefit from this situation, but as soon as an accident will happen and pass on national news, then a total ban could happen quickly. 

I say it's better to use leverage to promote legalisation now.

[techyiam]

I don't believe a ban on PEV's is coming. I believe the federal government may step in to stop PEV's that are capable of exceeding 32 km/h from being manufactured in Canada, or imported into Canada. This won't happen to euc's unless the use of euc's are in big enough numbers, and the safety of the public warrant it.

To make euc a prescribed class under the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Act is a whole different can of worms. But then, you can license and insured it. But Transport Canada and the euc manufacturers are no where near ready to tackle euc's at this level at this time, IMHO.

[winterwheel]

A person here (Edmonton, Alberta, Canada) got a $400 ticket for driving an unregistered motor vehicle. He elected to go to court over it and they eventually sent him a letter to let him know they were dropping it and he didn't have to appear after all. Several of us have a copy of that letter on our phones for use in case such an incident should ever occur again.

[RoboFixIt]

3 hours ago, winterwheel said:

Several of us have a copy of that letter on our phones for use in case such an incident should ever occur again.

Can you please send that to me via DM, Insta, telegram or email?

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, winterwheel said:

A person here (Edmonton, Alberta, Canada) got a $400 ticket for driving an unregistered motor vehicle.

For e-bikes capable of exceeding 32 km/h, or have features that resemble existing prescribed classes are regulated by Transport Canada, and would have a VIN if they were legal. Since euc's are not regulated by Transport Canada, and therefore, could not be expected to have a VIN, and as result cannot be registered. The ruling is correct. Thank goodness for that.

[winterwheel]

13 hours ago, ElectronxCycles said:

Can you please send that to me via DM, Insta, telegram or email?

That might be tough ask. Maybe if we blank out some of the particulars we could do something. I'll look into it.

[Murdomeek]

On 10/26/2022 at 7:03 PM, techyiam said:

In Feburary 2021, Federal law ban e-bikes in Canada that are capable of exceeding the speed of 32 km/h, even for off road use. The feds lumped those e-bikes together with the restricted dirt bikes, and ATV's. However, euc's, e-scooters, and esk8 were not excluded. Hence, euc's are not illegal to ride off-road unless the owners of the properties prohibit them. But you can still legally import euc's, I think. In contrast, e-bikes that are capable going 32 km/h are illegal to manufacture or to be imported into Canada. I have contacted e-bike companies in the US. They refuse to to sell their powerful e-bikes to Canadians. 

 

Interesting, I never heard of this before.

For the USA stores not wanting to ship to canada, fair enough.  They don't want to get fined/blacklisted/sued for importing illegal goods across the border.  

But there are plenty of china import ebikes that go above 32kph sold all over the place. I've seen ebikes from retail stores that can go up to 45kph.  (But they all advertise as '32kph')  

 

 

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, Murdomeek said:

But there are plenty of china import ebikes that go above 32kph sold all over the place. I've seen ebikes from retail stores that can go up to 45kph.  (But they all advertise as '32kph')  

I don't know how stringent CBSA is enforcing the law, nor what is Transport Canada current enforcement policy is. But do understand that Transport Canada can come after an importer retroactively.