Enough is Enough

[JohnnyWheels]

On 10/13/2022 at 5:32 PM, Funky said:

The market as whole is just dumb. People aren't far of being dumb also. (Sorry - not sorry, i call how it is.)  

We keep pre-ordering, exspecting getting out of box working wheels. But we already know.. EVERY single new wheel has first/second batch problems. Same for subpar build quality and right out not working as intended wheels. Yet we keep buying them. And by buying we keep saying: "it's okay, keep selling us subpar wheels" - we are used to that now.. But it's not right at all!

Same for market.. It seems we have forgot what EUC was meant to be - Last mileage device. You can't call them that anymore. EUC's are now fully blown substitute for car/motorcycle for some. Don't get me wrong - i love that!!! But manufacturers going bigger and bigger are simply wrong.. Same time quality goes down. They should think how to increase speed/power, but same time make the wheels lighter. We are going over ~110lbs already. How far will we go? At what speed/weight we will say it's enough?

I can't be the only one who thinks like that? 

I got a question for you all.. What speed/weight/range would your ideal wheel be? And how much $$$ would it cost? (Try to be as realistic as possible in these 4 stats. - Thanks.)

 

My ideal wheel: 40mph(65kph) ~55lbs(~25kg) 50miles(80km).

Extra specs: 18x3" tire. No suspension. Water rating. Real smart BMS. No LCD screen. Metal inner frame. 2500-3000$

I completely agree with you @Funky , quality should be number one focus! Seeing the sometimes extremely sloppyness of the assemblies on some of the wheels makes me quite terrified. Ofc some brands are worse than others. The buyer shouldnt be a damn test dummy. There should be way more extensive testing prior to any sales, and  hardwired safety margins, and 'riding the beeps' shouldnt be so easy obtainable as to open an app and sliding the alarm settings.
I look at new wheels coming, and I just know that I wont be getting any of them before version 2 and 3 comes out, just to know that 'all' of the bugs and what not have been cleared by then.  
I really dont like the direction new wheels are headed. They seem to be getting bigger/heavier for longer range, and 'unnecessarily' faster, and ofc more expensive. Like, do we really need a wheel to push way past 100 km/h? Cant imagine the potential catastrophic accidents that can cause, falling in those speeds, sending a 50 kg+ wheel into a car or a person. What we´ll end up with those types of accidents is a full on ban. 
Instead of loading the wheels up with more and more batteries, making them more and more heavy, Id rather see less batteries that can charge faster. 

Back to your question regarding 'my' ideal wheel:
- Top speed 65-70 km/h, making cruising at 50-60 km/h a breeze with good safety margin
- Smart BMS
- Motor 2500W-ish
- Weight 20 - 25 kg
- Battery 1500 - 2000 Wh.
- Water proof (not water 'resistant', but rather full on 'drive in a frikkn monsoon' with no problem like a normal car/bike/e-bike)
- Suspension would be nice, but ofc that adds bulk
- Convenient trolley handle (KS 16X´s is awesome, but since it also engages the lift switch, and it opens up for water to seep inside, id rather go with an InMotion V12 style, where you can easily lift the wheel without using the trolley handle and have the lift switch under the 'case handle'. I feel KS´s can be a bit flimsy over time, esp if you just yank on it)
- 16 x 3" tyre , or 18 x 3"
- No flashy RGB lights, just a good front/back light
- No LCD screen
- Discrete but effective mud guard
- Kick stand... meh
- Spiked pedals
- Flat sides (shell) to easily install power pads
- Easy serviceable (changing tyre, and just easy to get the side panels off)
- Price point, $2-2500 (may even stretch it to 3k, for top notch quality).
 

[Cerbera]

It's a very exciting time for EUCs - in the larger timeline, right at their birth. Like anything relatively new it takes a while to find our feet and find the things that work, the things that don't and the limits, in all sorts of different areas. I am actually pleased at the rate of advancement, and the push towards heavier, more capable wheels AND more speed, power, range and torque, because physics will stop us before it gets much more ridiculous than it already is, and it's nice to know where those limits are !

And we experimental riders who have discovered this wonderful new exciting thing are (understandably) damned impatient to get the nearest thing we'll see in our lifetimes' to a hoverboard under our feet and rolling as soon as possible. Simply put, we want new stuff faster than safety standards and adequate testing periods can establish themselves; it started off that way, manufacturers noticed, and it has remained the same ever since.

In the wider picture I would say that we have seen a general ramp up of build quality over the years - frames become more solid, axles become thicker, more gets built from metal these days, rides are starting to get seriously comfortable. Excepting the ongoing QA and the 'Dave's had a bad soldering day on the line' type issues, things ARE slowly getting better.

I imagine that with time, development rate will slow down, and safety and redundancy and Quality Control will have time catch up and get their shit together. 10 years from now EUCers will look back at this period of initial feet-finding (or should I say feet-replacing) and laugh about what great fun it all was  Eventually, we will miss the exciting unpredictability !

Edited November 3, 2022 by Cerbera

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

On 10/13/2022 at 5:32 PM, Funky said:

The market as whole is just dumb. People aren't far of being dumb also. (Sorry - not sorry, i call how it is.)  

We keep pre-ordering, exspecting getting out of box working wheels. But we already know.. EVERY single new wheel has first/second batch problems. Same for subpar build quality and right out not working as intended wheels. Yet we keep buying them. And by buying we keep saying: "it's okay, keep selling us subpar wheels" - we are used to that now.. But it's not right at all!

It was a very hard time for me in the past 2 years , but I still ride my MSP HT, although I was all the time looking for an upgrade with suspension. 

In this time I pre ordered RS HT, but canceled after bearing problems occurred. 

Then I pre ordered S22 on the same day it was released, canceled also after I saw the suspension sliders and the poor quality. 

Hero, Master, T4? No thanks! 

I continue to try my best not to buy this garbage out of desperation. 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by EUC Custom Power-Pads

[Funky]

4 hours ago, EUC Custom Power-Pads said:

It was a very hard for me in the past 2 years , but I still ride my MSP HT, although I was all the time looking for an upgrade with suspension. 

In this time I pre ordered RS HT, but canceled after bearing problems occurred. 

Then I pre ordered S22 on the same day it was released, canceled also after I saw the suspension sliders and the poor quality. 

Hero, Master, T4? No thanks! 

I continue to try my best not to buy this garbage out of desperation. 

 

 

Aside from Kingsong 16x and 18xl. Maybe V12 if it didn't have those mosfet issue. All other wheels are more or less garbage. Poor quality and so on. (I'm talking about quality... You can ride a ducking trashcan - which most new wheels are.)

My dream wheel would be Begody RS that weight ~27kg. Little bit more weight than i would like.. But at least it has real 18x3" tire.

But sadly it's inside are simply "messy" and poor quality. Also it had the problem of water ingress. (For water i could simply silicone the heatsink and everything. But still..)

T4 is kinda also good/bad at the same time. Metal frame, etc - great. Begody, water, suspension, "new" wheel problems - bad.

From "heavy-heavy" class, Sherman Max is my go to wheel. But i don't need that powerful wheel. 

I want ~60km/h speed. But same time i don't need range. (I think there won't ever be small battery wheel, but with great top speed..) Maybe when solid state batteries become a thing.

 

I'm still waiting for something decent made.

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Funky

[mike_bike_kite]

Must admit I laugh when I see these wheels capable of 60mph - I'm sure there's some idiot out there that wants to ride at those speeds but it has no relevance to me at all. I have quite simple needs as a rider: I just want something that will keep up with 30mph traffic, is rugged, is waterproof, is unobtrusive, comfortable to ride and has a reasonable range of about 50+ miles. I'll admit I'm happier going at 25mph but I don't like to annoy traffic behind me. If I needed to go faster then I'm either on the wrong road or on the wrong mode of transport.

I don't need suspension but I'll also admit I haven't tried it on an EUC. I find my Nikola Plus meets most of my needs but the rear light is pathetic and the case scratches far too easily. The 18XL would probably of been perfect for me but they were much more expensive. I also like wheels that don't attract attention which means I can wheel it round the supermarket or into a coffee shop and no-one bothers me. I also don't want the sides of my wheel to light up - it's transport not a Christmas tree decoration. I should also have said I expect the wheel to be affordable - I know everyone has a different idea of what's affordable but wheels costing $3K+ just seems wrong to me. Probably most importantly of all, I don't want to worry about a wheel spontaneously bursting into flames in my home. I don't think that's a lot to expect.

When I look at the ewheels site, the wheels that are in their best sellers list are the V8F and 16S but the wheels that fill their products pages are all $3K+ wheels. Maybe people just buy wheels they want rather than the wheels they actually need.

[xiiijojjo]

16 hours ago, Funky said:

My dream wheel would be Begody RS that weight ~27kg. Little bit more weight than i would like.. But at least it has real 18x3" tire.

But sadly it's inside are simply "messy" and poor quality. Also it had the problem of water ingress. (For water i could simply silicone the heatsink and everything. But still..)

 

 

RS HS v1 weighs 28kg, I don't know about newer versions. 

I disagree with the "messy insides". When I got the v1 I opened it up and check that no cables were damaged and sure some cables were placed irresponsibly but considering the quality control from any company/model every rider should ALWAYS open their EUC first thing once it's out of the box to make sure no cables are damaged or placed irresponsibly... I then used silicon to waterproof it completely in less than 5 minutes, no silicone around the heatsink needed. 

After 2 years there has been 0 ingress of water and I have ridden in heavy rainfall many times by now without covering up the trolley handle.

Sure the insides are messy compared to other modern electronics like a laptop but compared to other EUC I don't think it's neither better nor worse necessarily.

Regardless of how far QC get's I will personally always open up a new EUC and check the insides, so to me it doesn't matter if I have to spend 1 extra minute moving cables around.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, xiiijojjo said:

RS HS v1 weighs 28kg, I don't know about newer versions. 

I disagree with the "messy insides". When I got the v1 I opened it up and check that no cables were damaged and sure some cables were placed irresponsibly but considering the quality control from any company/model every rider should ALWAYS open their EUC first thing once it's out of the box to make sure no cables are damaged or placed irresponsibly... I then used silicon to waterproof it completely in less than 5 minutes, no silicone around the heatsink needed. 

After 2 years there has been 0 ingress of water and I have ridden in heavy rainfall many times by now without covering up the trolley handle.

Sure the insides are messy compared to other modern electronics like a laptop but compared to other EUC I don't think it's neither better nor worse necessarily.

Regardless of how far QC get's I will personally always open up a new EUC and check the insides, so to me it doesn't matter if I have to spend 1 extra minute moving cables around.

Most would not open the euc, if it isn't needed.. (If i didn't have issue with rubbing fan, right out of box - i would have not opened it. Only at tire change/repair.)

By "messy" i mean it has motherboard on side - which i personally don't like. (I mostly don't like it because, if any water would get inside.. It has some chance getting on the board. Not like the wheels which have the board at very top.) Also all connections go right into motherboard. No mid-wire connection like kingsong older models had. Heat shrinks that need to cover said wire have open "gaps".. And over all simply not the "best" quality. 

As someone who rides in rain almost every day in fall.. I need reliability. In gotway wheels i don't see that. Maybe one day they will make something decent. But i don't see that happening.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Funky

[Cerbera]

Yeah I gotta say my MS3, with its side-mounted motherboard has never got any rain inside that compartment, and I have had numerous reasons to check over the years. Indeed I worry about the top mounted boards on my Master a lot more because they are in trays that face the direction of rainfall, and although the MBs are quite well protected once you've blocked all the holes from below, and there is no chance of it getting in from above with both covers on, the charge port has a recess where water definitely can accumulate and potentially drop straight on to the BMS unless covered !

[Funky]

Just now, Cerbera said:

Yeah I gotta say my MS3, with its side-mounted motherboard has never got any rain inside that compartment, and I have had numerous reasons to check over the years. Indeed I worry about the top mounted boards on my Master a lot more because they are in trays that face the direction of rainfall, and although the MBs are quite well protected once you've blocked all the holes from below, and there is no chance of it getting in from above with both covers on, the charge port has a recess where water definitely can accumulate and potentially drop straight on to the BMS unless covered !

Rain backpack cover. -Which i personally use every time it's raining. Wheel is completely dry.. (Unlike myself.)  

I don't like the idea of having heatsink in wheel well at its side. It "should" not let any water true. Heck even if i silicone it shut. There still is 1% chance over time it would start letting water in. (1-2 years later..)

Also let's not talk about "newer" wheels. They all are complete garbage.. In one way or form. (Yes they look cool, they perform much, much better than old wheels. But quality - there is none!)

Edited November 7, 2022 by Funky

[mike_bike_kite]

I haven't opened my Nikola+ (as I haven't had to) but from the videos I've seen it's put together very well. It's also completely waterproof. Actually, I think it's air proof as well. In the videos I've seen, of older wheels being disassembled, there's not water or even dust ingress. I have no idea how it cools down at all as the internal fan just blows air around inside the case. It also has the older small axel which is a good thing as you don't have to worry about the axel rusting.

[mrelwood]

On 11/7/2022 at 2:10 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

I have no idea how it cools down at all as the internal fan just blows air around inside the case.

The temperature of the circulating air is much much lower than the mosfet gets to under stress. Outside air would of course be hugely more effective, but having a fan in an enclosed space is still definitely useful.

[mike_bike_kite]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The temperature of the circulating air is much much lower than the mosfet gets to under stress. Outside air would of course be hugely more effective, but having a fan in an enclosed space is still definitely useful.

Well, I guess that has to be the case but you'd think the air would warm up pretty quick inside there. I'm not complaining though, as I prefer a fully watertight wheel and, even when pushing it, the temp doesn't rise that much for me. It might be different if I lived somewhere hot though.

[Cerbera]

Oh, THAT's how we get above 100 kph without being blown off backwards...

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Cerbera

[Freeforester]

6 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Oh, THAT's how we get above 100 kph without being blown off backwards...

 

 

Maybe Begode could offer these, complete with a mattress inside, for that inevitable eventual face plant moment?

[Funky]

9 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Oh, THAT's how we get above 100 kph without being blown off backwards...

 

 

Great Anti-People shield. Where can i buy one? Because i hate people..

[UPONIT]

On 10/15/2022 at 5:14 PM, ElectronxCycles said:

EUC's being made overseas is my biggest complaint. We should be designing and manufacturing all future tech right in North America period. The first reason is, EUC's are not being made for our climate with rain and snow etc.

Much delayed response here...

I doubt that any N. American EUC buyers would pay the MUCH higher price of wheels that were made in N. America.

Edited November 10, 2022 by UPONIT

[Funky]

55 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

Much delayed response here...

I doubt that any N. American EUC buyers would pay the MUCH higher price of wheels that were made in N. America.

They should not cost MORE...

In perfect world everything would cost the same. Doesn't matter from which country goods came or are made. At less we don't live in perfect world.

[mrelwood]

49 minutes ago, Funky said:

In perfect world everything would cost the same.

In a perfect world a cost wouldn’t be measured in money.

Edited November 10, 2022 by mrelwood

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

In a perfect world a cost wouldn’t be measured in money.

In other words the concept of money would not even exit..

[DragonFZ]

I agree... this is a prime example of Free Market and trying to figure what is that in-between zone of Car Transportation and walking. Like, Airplane and ground... that in-between zone (Drones). This is exciting time and we get to put our 2 cents in (or a few thousands) to move it to where it needs to go. I'm just glad it is evolving and moving along. Worse scenario is that it was all a fad and dies out. It is frustrating to know what is the human limit for weight, range and speed. Only the very few are willing to go over 50 mph. I don't think anyone wants to cruise at 60 mph with only their arms as the airbags. Currently, I'm having 2nd thoughts on getting the V13 due to weight and do I really need to go 55 mph and do I need 2 wheels over $4000. Plus 4 suspensions (8) to pump up and maintain.

[UPONIT]

On 11/10/2022 at 5:03 AM, Funky said:

At less we don't live in perfect world.

Nope.

Sidebar:

Am I imagining it, or did I read somewhere (possibly on this site?) about a person or small team who are (were?) trying to develop an American designed and built EUC? Wonder how that is going? I have to admire companies from anywhere who are trying to make a living manufacturing EUCs at this early stage in their existence. Just trying to understand your "market" when it is too tiny for any normal business analysis... yikes.

[Funky]

51 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

Nope.

Sidebar:

Am I imagining it, or did I read somewhere (possibly on this site?) about a person or small team who are (were?) trying to develop an American designed and built EUC? Wonder how that is going? I have to admire companies from anywhere who are trying to make a living manufacturing EUCs at this early stage in their existence. Just trying to understand your "market" when it is too tiny for any normal business analysis... yikes.

How is it an "early" stage. Euc are well over 10 years old already.. It isn't "early" anymore. There isn't anything "new" made. Self balancing aspect was made and that's that. Now we are only getting bigger and bigger wheels. Whit more cells and more powerful motors built inside. If nothing else i would call it's already matured and done. Also speed wise - we are nearly at "rider-riding" limits..

Till they find better batteries or other way to change the whole EUC design. It's already finished product. Now they can only make the quality better, water rating and all the "small" things.

I don't get why people call it just released tech and such.. It's already finished. Every euc is the same from inside. And till we get something like solid state batteries or something. It's finished.

Newest thing that we got was real smart BMS and suspension.. What can we add more to make it more "mature". Aside from build quality - nothing.

In my eyes it's already finished. Till we get something "new" game changing. (Like: Geared motors.. Solid state batteries.. Things like that.)

Edited November 11, 2022 by Funky

[UPONIT]

On 11/10/2022 at 11:50 AM, DragonFZ said:

do I really need to go 55 mph and do I need 2 wheels over $4000. Plus 4 suspensions (8) to pump up and maintain.

1) Nope. 2) You do if it makes you happy. 3) It's easy to think of reasons not to enjoy what you enjoy. Five minutes a week shouldn't stop you.

[UPONIT]

5 minutes ago, Funky said:

How is it an "early" stage. Euc are well over 10 years old already..

I guess it depends on your frame of reference. How many EUCs have been sold since their invention? Divide by 8 billion. Pretty tiny penetration into society. Cars. Bikes. Boats. Skates. Trains. Planes. Hot-air balloons. Those markets are mature, integrated into civilization, studied, dissected, written about... ubiquitous.

10 years doesn't even register on the timescale of human transport. I certainly hope EUC technology will improve in ways we can't even yet imagine. I hope they will become more widely used and integrated into daily life.

It would be nice if the best was yet to come...

[Funky]

2 hours ago, UPONIT said:

I guess it depends on your frame of reference. How many EUCs have been sold since their invention? Divide by 8 billion. Pretty tiny penetration into society. Cars. Bikes. Boats. Skates. Trains. Planes. Hot-air balloons. Those markets are mature, integrated into civilization, studied, dissected, written about... ubiquitous.

10 years doesn't even register on the timescale of human transport. I certainly hope EUC technology will improve in ways we can't even yet imagine. I hope they will become more widely used and integrated into daily life.

It would be nice if the best was yet to come...

But the thing is, all those transports haven't changed much - if at all. Car same 4 wheels still. Bike same 2 wheels still. So on..

Euc seems technologically speaking "done". Same as all other transports. At least till we get something "new" - technological breakthrough.

Euc itself is done. Only thing that still is "early" - said population. Adoption rate is pretty early/small.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Funky