Sherman-S 3600wh: 100V, 20", suspension, 97lb

[chuvisco]

18 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Is that not how preload works?

Yes, but if you watch MTB suspension tuning videos on YT, they say that if you find you need to add a bunch of preload, you really should switch to a higher spring rate (58lbs to 62lbs on SS or 400lbs/in to 750 or 1000 lbs/in on other EUCs), as adding preload takes responsiveness out of the top end. 

[Planemo]

58 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Are you sure?

Yes.

Preload on one end of a spring affects ride height.

Sag is relative to spring poundage.

They are very different.

If it were not, we wouldnt need springs with different poundages, we could just use one spring and infinite preload.

Many, many people get confused about this, I got booted off an MC forum by the mods during a discussion over the same subject. I was reinstated with an apology after they had done some reading.

I dont have time at the moment to go into detail, when I do I will see if I can come up with some links to help.

All I will say is that unless you are topped out when loaded (which we never should be) adding preload will simply raise you up and lose your sag point because its not changing the spring poundage. Taken to the extreme, crank up preload even more and you will end up with a highly compressed spring unloaded and very little sag when you step on it. Ergo, very little chance of using the full stroke.

[Slartibartfast]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Yes.

.
.
.

I dont have time at the moment to go into detail, when I do I will see if I can come up with some links to help.

I for one would be curious to see...

I would have sworn that preload reduced the range of a springs travel (by effectively removing the "soft" end of the travel).
I'm happy to be shown otherwise but you'll need to explain it to convince me: 

[wstuart]

I did my second offroad session today, but this time with the suspension setup for my weight.  Completely different experience.  So so much more stable and controllable.  Also helped that I actually had traction on the pedals this time with the mountain bike spikes installed. 

I highly reccomend that people getting this wheel take the time to at lease set the compression to their weight.  When you get the wheel compression and rebound will be set in the middle.  If you're like 160 pounds leave them there.  If your over 190lbs I really think you need to at least bump up the compression - nearly all the way.

 

I get my "Custom CNC" spiked pedals from Aliexpress soon - maybe tomorrow.  I'm hoping this helps even more. 

[Clem604]

6 minutes ago, wstuart said:

I get my "Custom CNC" spiked pedals from Aliexpress soon - maybe tomorrow.  I'm hoping this helps even more. 

I wish I ordered them a few weeks ago when they were still $225CAD($167USD). I just checked again today and the price is up to $293CAD($218USD)😥

[DragonFZ]

5 hours ago, wstuart said:

Also:  I remember reading that one side has 12 clicks and the other has 18,  but when I counted the clicks on mine, one side has 18 and the other had 19...????  I don't think it matters, just seemed strange to me.  

OMFG!!! I have not click my suspensions counter clockwise all the way down. Once again fear of messing up the suspension like Marty did on the V13.

[wstuart]

54 minutes ago, DragonFZ said:

OMFG!!! I have not click my suspensions counter clockwise all the way down. Once again fear of messing up the suspension like Marty did on the V13.

Oh I see.  Yeah that's why for my final setting I didn't set the compression allrhe way to hard.  I don't feel comfortable running a part at its maximum setting.  I backed it off 2 clicks just in case it helped the part.  

I really hope I'm not wearing the suspension out by running the compression high.  The ride and performance felt so good today.  It absolutely blew me away how good this wheel is when the suspension set up for my weight - so much better than it was before and it was really good before.  

[wstuart]

1 hour ago, Clem604 said:

I wish I ordered them a few weeks ago when they were still $225CAD($167USD). I just checked again today and the price is up to $293CAD($218USD)😥

That's so weird how the price changed little by little over time.  I feel like I'm trying to buy bitcoin or something.  I guess I'm lucky I got in on these pedals for $175 US.  I really hope they come tomorrow!

[Clem604]

37 minutes ago, wstuart said:

That's so weird how the price changed little by little over time.  I feel like I'm trying to buy bitcoin or something.  I guess I'm lucky I got in on these pedals for $175 US.  I really hope they come tomorrow!

Yeah I spoke to the seller (GT King Store) to find out what happened with the price and they informed me that the factory just raised the price but they didn't give me a reason. I'm interested to see them on your Sherman.

[wstuart]

36 minutes ago, Clem604 said:

Yeah I spoke to the seller (GT King Store) to find out what happened with the price and they informed me that the factory just raised the price but they didn't give me a reason. I'm interested to see them on your Sherman.

Oh wow.  Yeah I'm most excited about changing the angle on the pedals.  The high dihedral angle of the stock pedals just kills my knees.  If I can get these to be just a little flatter than stock, I'll be so much more comfortable. 

[Hellkitten]

11 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Oh wow.  Yeah I'm most excited about changing the angle on the pedals.  The high dihedral angle of the stock pedals just kills my knees.  If I can get these to be just a little flatter than stock, I'll be so much more comfortable. 

You should be able to file/grind the hanger or pedal bracket to the angle of your liking. 

[wstuart]

18 minutes ago, Hellkitten said:

You should be able to file/grind the hanger or pedal bracket to the angle of your liking. 

Yeah I would have considered filing down these stock pedals if the upgraded ones hadn't arrived so quickly 

[Clem604]

So are any of you using a fast charger with your Sherman S? It's the last thing I need to buy for the wheel and I'd like to look at all the options avaliable before I spend money on the 100V 7.5A fast charger that Eevees sells. Is there a faster one than 7.5A?? Thanks in advance.

[KiwiMark]

5 minutes ago, Clem604 said:

So are any of you using a fast charger with your Sherman S? It's the last thing I need to buy for the wheel and I'd like to look at all the options avaliable before I spend money on the 100V 7.5A fast charger that Eevees sells. Is there a faster one than 7.5A?? Thanks in advance.

Yeah, you can charge at 15A - that's what I'll do with my charger at least some of the time.

I bought an adjustable charger off AliExpress that can output 1A - 20A at 30V to 140V, able to fast charge any PEV out there.  There are plenty of sellers of these chargers which are made from server power supplies (no a new part, repurposing a retired component) with a display added as well as a couple of potentiometers to adjust voltage & amperage.

[Clem604]

3 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

Yeah, you can charge at 15A - that's what I'll do with my charger at least some of the time.

I bought an adjustable charger off AliExpress that can output 1A - 20A at 30V to 140V, able to fast charge any PEV out there.  There are plenty of sellers of these chargers which are made from server power supplies (no a new part, repurposing a retired component) with a display added as well as a couple of potentiometers to adjust voltage & amperage.

Thanks! I was looking at them on Aliexpress as well but I wasn't sure which exact one to buy that would work with the Sherman. Would you have a link to the one you've bought? Cheers🤙

[Planemo]

6 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

I for one would be curious to see...

I would have sworn that preload reduced the range of a springs travel (by effectively removing the "soft" end of the travel).
I'm happy to be shown otherwise but you'll need to explain it to convince me: 

Imagine standing on a SS with zero preload. The wheel will sag by X. Lets say 40mm. For clarity we'll run damping fully open (zero clicks).

Add 20mm of preload.

1. Will the loaded wheel rise by 20mm and have the same stiffness

or

2. Will the wheel stay at the same height but increase the stiffness.

Its 1.

We cant increase stiffness with preload, only ride height, hence the requirement for different springs.

[Slartibartfast]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Imagine standing on a SS with zero preload. The wheel will sag by X. Lets say 40mm. For clarity we'll run damping fully open (zero clicks).

Add 20mm of preload.

1. Will the loaded wheel rise by 20mm and have the same stiffness

or

2. Will the wheel stay at the same height but increase the stiffness.

Its 1.

We cant increase stiffness with preload, only ride height, hence the requirement for different springs.

You've said with no preload the spring will sag by 40mm when one stands on it. If you were to add 20mm of preload, I would say the sag would be reduce to just an additional 20mm when you step on. Would you agree this would be 20mm?

In any event, once loaded the spring will behave identically in both cases (ie. the spring rate is exactly the same).
Here's a handy-dandy little graphic I've knocked together from this site showing how pre-load affects the spring:

In this image the spring is shown to compress 1mm/kg.
(Note that the amount of sag has been reduced from 50mm to 25mm by introducing 25mm of preload)

 

I acknowledge that by the time they are laden the springs are compressed the exact same amount, it just requires less travel to get there because the preload has the spring starting in a partially compressed state to begin with. I guess if you consider that the pedal hangers are ultimately attached to that blue part than yes, the pedals will ultimately end up being higher, but that's just akin to moving the height of the pedal hangers themselves rather than as a result of the suspension as such. The actual suspension will still be riding with the same amount of compression regardless. While I see that preload will change the laden height of that blue stanchion I'm not sure that is a good thing. If this were on a motorcycle one would ideally adjust the "ride height" by adjusting where the triple claps grip the stanchion and leave the preload to control sag.

By the way, I completely agree that to achieve a proper setup greater loads require stiffer springs. In fact I have lamented several times that only having one set of springs to service all riders above 80kg is just plain ridiculous! And to be clear, I think I actually have an even more dim view of preload than you do yourself, in that I'd say the only thing preload really achieves is to reduce the amount the suspension rises when unladen.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Slartibartfast

[Slartibartfast]

By the way, I also came across this explanation of "preload":

Quote

Essentially, preload means that the spring is pushing outward on the shock before the shock has even started compressing. To make the shock start to compress, you have to overcome that preload force. The more preload force there is, the more force you have to exert on the shock to get it to move. So basically, more preload means less sag.

Which is pretty much exactly what my understanding of "preload" was.

[Crab]

So if you riding weight is 195-200 with all gear on, what spring would be best?

[Slartibartfast]

2 minutes ago, Crab said:

So if you riding weight is 195-200 with all gear on, what spring would be best?

You're pushing 90 kg, so I would definitely say go for the 62 lbs/in (firmer) springs.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Slartibartfast

[Alexutlang]

19 hours ago, Funky said:

Have you opened the wheel lately? There have been shown some videos - how the suspension is rubbing against the metal inside, the area where sliders go up/down.. At meastly 100km some have already shown quit a worrying cases. I can imagine at 2000-4000km or later.. The metal will be rubbed down so badly that at some point the suspension will break.. Or won't be so smooth anymore.

I don't call it "set and forget". I call that potential crash risk at worst. Or at best premature replacement parts.

 

 

And anyone who wanna cry about me being negative so on again.. I'm pointing out an actual design problem!

 I opened mine at 600km when i changed the knobby to street tire. I don't have those rubbing on the shell and on suspension holder/block. Suspension is set and forget compared to all begode wheels and V13. no air to check, nothing to lubricate, no bushing or bearing to check. I use my SS on stairs every ride probably over 100 steps total since I have it. I might open it again at 1500km to check the suspension to see for any damages or wear and tear. So far it's a stressfree owning the SS. No different than owning a  non suspension wheel when it comes to maintenance 

 

I

[Alexutlang]

18 hours ago, wstuart said:

Awesome!  Thanks for sharing.  I'm at 210km and I feel like I've finally got the suspension to my liking. 

Just curious, the suspension on your isn't making any additional noise?..... any additional stiction?

 

I saw these parts on aliexpress I don't know if these are upgrades or batch 2 revisions.  The title suggests they help with suspension "noise".  I wonder if they are meant to address the rubbing in some units. 

 

https://m.aliexpress.us/item/3256804937855664.html?spm=a2g0n.productlist.0.0.5fecWeubWeubDN&browser_id=198bf600e0ba4df5bffa5b514a320c32&aff_trace_key=1eef7779ebe9489185152d495850befb-1673494862591-04638-UneMJZVf&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=ipbqg72zjh8caa7z185bbd9e52620153234e239428&gclid=&pdp_npi=2%40dis!USD!40.95!40.95!!!!!%402103223016738938987091397ef19b!12000031754552253!sea&curPageLogUid=MB4AF72DgDy2&isseo=y&algo_pvid=49a92e56-cf1f-42c6-bc70-364b4ea8811d

On mine, suspension feels like the first day I got it. So far no complaint about. That link on aliexpress is the suspension holder. Saw one post where he broke his by over torquing the screws

[Adel]

1 hour ago, Alexutlang said:

 I opened mine at 600km when i changed the knobby to street tire. I don't have those rubbing on the shell and on suspension holder/block. Suspension is set and forget compared to all begode wheels and V13. no air to check, nothing to lubricate, no bushing or bearing to check. I use my SS on stairs every ride probably over 100 steps total since I have it. I might open it again at 1500km to check the suspension to see for any damages or wear and tear. So far it's a stressfree owning the SS. No different than owning a  non suspension wheel when it comes to maintenance 

 

I

What street tire did you install and do you like it better than the K262. Im tempted to order Sherman S with street tire but I like the stability of the knobby on my OG Sherman.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Adel

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Alexutlang said:

 I opened mine at 600km when i changed the knobby to street tire. I don't have those rubbing on the shell and on suspension holder/block. Suspension is set and forget compared to all begode wheels and V13. no air to check, nothing to lubricate, no bushing or bearing to check. I use my SS on stairs every ride probably over 100 steps total since I have it. I might open it again at 1500km to check the suspension to see for any damages or wear and tear. So far it's a stressfree owning the SS. No different than owning a  non suspension wheel when it comes to maintenance 

 

I

Yeah compared to other EUC's suspensions, S-S has the best one out right now! Hands down! Having those "tail" moving parts is a nightmare.

Doh i personally still don't like how the suspension doesn't have a hard "arch/bridge". Only thing holding together is some screws via motherboard apartment. I could see some problems happening like both suspensions don't go down the same way, or getting out of line/sinc. Time only will show..

You still have danger of blowing the suspension.. But that's if you really abuse the wheel. 

[DragonFZ]

On 1/15/2023 at 2:27 PM, MrMonoWheel said:

What wheel do you actually ride, and have you even tried any of the wheels you have been speaking against?

It seems like you want a small light wheel and only come in these threads to bash the bigger wheels. If you don't like these wheels don't buy one, simple as that. Its like in my case I'm not even looking at any smaller wheels (V12, T4, etc) but you don't see me in those threads bashing the wheels because they are too small and don't have enough range. 

It just doesn't make sense to me why you stick around a thread dedicated to a long range, large, heavier wheel if you already know it's the polar opposite of what you are looking for in a wheel. 

He just trolling. No experience but want to inject his thought because there's no one to listen to his whining. Ignoring him is the best solution.