Solid-state lithium batteries

[Freeforester]

Meanwhile, at GM HQ:

 

[KiwiMark]

8 hours ago, Freeforester said:

Meanwhile, at GM HQ:

A bit of click-bait title (no, it won't destroy the entire EV industry - even if all their claims are true), but I hope their batteries are as good as claimed.  Back in the late 1980's I could see that one thing was desperately needed in the battery industry - billions spent on R&D to make them better.  Now we finally have multiple companies spending many tens of billions on battery R&D, this is what needs to happen.  The more batteries are improved the better off we all are, very much including those of us that ride electric wheels!

[Hellkitten]

https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2022/12/07/low-cost-battery-built-with-four-times-the-capacity-of-lithium.html
 

Not exactly solid state, but interesting at any rate……

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

On 12/18/2022 at 12:19 AM, Hellkitten said:

https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2022/12/07/low-cost-battery-built-with-four-times-the-capacity-of-lithium.html
 

Not exactly solid state, but interesting at any rate……

That would be very interesting at $25 kWh for 500 cycles. It would cost 0.05c for each kWh stored and used. That would be very cheap. My electricity costs around 0.30c - 0.40c per kWh from the grid.

[KiwiMark]

6 hours ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

My electricity costs around 0.30c - 0.40c per kWh from the grid.

I don't charge from the grid, mine costs 0c per kWh from my solar panels. 

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

9 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

I don't charge from the grid, mine costs 0c per kWh from my solar panels. 

Sounds good, but did you steal them or get them installed + everything else needed for free? Lol

Ive seen some crazy solar set ups that i reckon will end up costing the buyers $1+ per kWh used.

[KiwiMark]

39 minutes ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

Sounds good, but did you steal them or get them installed + everything else needed for free? Lol

Ive seen some crazy solar set ups that i reckon will end up costing the buyers $1+ per kWh used.

Some were on my RV when I bought it and I paid to have some more added, but now that I have them there is no ongoing cost.  The more power I use from my solar panels the better value the money I spent was.  This is different to using grid-based power where the more you use the more you pay.  Once you have already paid for solar (or a wind turbine) the more you can utilize that power the better.

It isn't just money either, the panels had to be manufactured and transported, this comes at a carbon cost.  The more you utilize what was made & transported the less the carbon emissions per kWh generated.  This also applies to you wheel, the more you use it the less CO2 emitted per km of travel.  Your wheel has already been manufactured and transported, the more you can utilise it the more worthwhile the initial CO2 costs.  This means we should all ride more! 

[The Brahan Seer]

Not quite Solid state but this tech could be available to buy in 3 years (factory already built).. Lithium Sulfur Batteries, 3-5 x energy density of current tech, no thermal runaway, 20min charge time, -30ºC to 60ºC operating temps, 1400 cycles, lighter cell weight, competitive costs. Suitable for high discharge Ev applications...

 

[Funky]

Any new battery tech that has more energy density. And doesn't have thermal runaway is a BIG WIN in pev market. 

Looks like i'm getting new wheel in 3-4 years.   Can't wait for 20kg wheels, which can go ranges of a 40kg+ wheels and even further. <3

Edited January 31, 2023 by Funky

[litewave]

36 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Not quite Solid state but this tech could be available to buy in 3 years (factory already built).. Lithium Sulfur Batteries, 3-5 x energy density of current tech, no thermal runaway, 20min charge time, -30ºC to 60ºC operating temps, 1400 cycles, lighter cell weight, competitive costs. Suitable for high discharge Ev applications...

 

There are/have been graphene li-poly batteries available for a couple years already.

I purchased two of these in 2021 and have been using them for EUC and other accessories.

I seriously considered using four of this type as a complementary or primary pack with a test Ninebot but shelved the idea based on feedback to my topic below.

 

[skunkmonkey]

So there's a plethora of new battery types either just entering production, or nearing production. I'm curious what others that may be more knowledgeable think will be the lithium ion replacement for EUC's, and why? I also welcome correction if any of my "facts" are wrong. I claim no real knowledge of the subject. 
 

China's Solid State Battery

Status - released (to China's Nio cars only currently AFAIK). Others (Toyota) are close to releasing far superior SS batteries, so I'm guessing they are rushing to market to try to stamp their claim before becoming labelled obsolete)

https://www.topspeed.com/nio-first-evmaker-to-bring-solid-state-batteries/

Pros

• 44.44% higher energy density than lithium-ion (at least the China version, Japan's will be considerably higher)
• Super fast charge times (~10 min)
• Battery fires aren't possible

Cons

• Heavier
• Sounds like it was rushed to market to beat superior competitors, so maybe they cut corners?

 

Sodium-Sulphur Battery

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/12/13/significant-breakthrough-this-new-sea-salt-battery-has-4-times-the-capacity-of-lithium

Status - in development

Pros

• 4x the energy density means either smaller, lighter battery packs, or increased range, or both.
• No rare earth metals, so cheaper and no human rights concerns over mining
• I assume no battery fires are possible?

Cons?

• How does the power output compare to lithium ion?
• How fast do they charge?

 

Sodium-Ion Battery

https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/05/11/1072865/how-sodium-could-change-the-game-for-batteries/
Status - in development

Pros

• Super cheap abundant materials, and no human rights concerns over mining

Cons

• Heavier than Lithium-Ion
• Low energy density, so battery packs would need to be larger or have less range

 

Other Noteworthy Mentions?

Edited September 25, 2023 by skunkmonkey

[atdlzpae]

China's Solid State Battery

Quote

they offer an energy density of 360 Wh/kg

Let's compare to first result in google for "21700 datasheet": https://www.li-polymer-battery.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/21700-Battery-Cell-3.7V-4800mAh-Datasheet.pdf

17.76Wh / 60g = 296 Wh/kg

So NIO's "solid-state battery" (sad that the article doesn't say what chemistry they use - 99% chance it's still lithium) has 22% higher capacity than what currently is available on the market.
Solid improvement, can't complain.

Sodium-Sulphur Battery

According to Wikipedia they require very high temperatures (300°C) because sodium has to be molten. So maybe usable in stationary applications, but definitely not in vehicles or at home.

Sodium-Ion Battery

Yeah, lower density, but cheaper materials. Seems practical for stationary applications, useless in vehicles.

Other Noteworthy Mentions?

Nuclear energy. Stationary applications are mostly either emergency power (UPS) or "let's accumulate solar energy because sun doesn't shine during night".
Nuclear power is very eco-friendly (about 10 times less emissions per kWh than coal) and provides power 24/7/365 unlike renewables.
If you invest in enough nuclear power plants you don't really need much storage except for emergency power, so less lithium mining required.

Renewables are still useful in a nuclear world - 1kWh produced from solar/wind = power plant uses 1kWh less fuel. But as an auxiliary, not as a main source.

We should've been doing this all along for 50 years now. Instead, Germany closed down it's last 3 nuclear power plants this year.

Nuclear power is a reason why France generates 85g of CO2e per 1kWh.
Germany is 385g CO2e/1kWh
China is 531g CO2e/1kWh

Thus a unicycle ride in China generates 8 times as much CO2 as in France per km.
The fact that a huge part of our manufacturing is in two most polluting countries (China & Taiwan) is also a disgrace to CO2 emissions.

EU is forcing people into installing heat pumps. Every winter people's electricity consumption is only gonna get higher and higher.
Burning coal to power a heat pump defeats any CO2 emission advantages.

[skunkmonkey]

5 hours ago, atdlzpae said:

So NIO's "solid-state battery" (sad that the article doesn't say what chemistry they use

According to TopGear, it's based on a solid electrolyte, a silicon graphite composition anode, and a nickel-heavy cathode.

[Freeforester]

Interesting to note that China is now moving toward thorium molten salt reactors; see appx 35 mins in in this very interesting video around the topic of mining for minerals for the purposes of net zero: 

 

 

[atdlzpae]

57 minutes ago, Freeforester said:

Interesting to note that China is now moving toward thorium molten salt reactors

https://climateenergyfinance.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/China-Electricity-Mix-April-update-2023.pdf
https://www.npr.org/2023/03/02/1160441919/china-is-building-six-times-more-new-coal-plants-than-other-countries-report-fin

From what I see China is investing in coal and renewables. Nuclear isn't on their radar at all.

And it's not like they don't have uranium to mine.
If they were investing in conventional nuclear, I would applaud.
The fact that they are investing in experimental thorium shows they are only doing it for publicity.

Edited October 3, 2023 by atdlzpae

[Freeforester]

I don’t think conventional nuclear is going to carry the day, it’s too strategic (eg France has not got too much of the stuff, and their former colonies aren’t so keen to supply any more) and problematic in terms of waste management, whereas Thorium is a tested and proven community scale solution.

Scenario options are worthy of consideration, there’s not so much time left for the status quo, and the BRICS countries are leading the charge:

 

[atdlzpae]

9 hours ago, Freeforester said:

don’t think conventional nuclear is going to carry the day, it’s too strategic (eg France has not got too much of the stuff, and their former colonies aren’t so keen to supply any more) and problematic in terms of waste management, whereas Thorium is a tested and proven community scale solution.

Too strategic

It's not like we're gonna run out of uranium anytime soon. WDYM exactly?

Problematic in terms of waste management

Absolutely not. Most common nuclear power plants use like at most 5% of the energy of the fuel. Used nuclear fuel is still fissile and completely viable for enrichment and reuse in nuclear plants of other types. So once old fuel reprocessing becomes profitable, it will happen.

There are also breeder reactors (experimented on since 1940's, there were like 20 of them in the world) that use almost all of the fuel. Uranium is simply so cheap that they aren't economically viable. But the idea that once we put waste nuclear products into the ground, that's it for the next millions of years is false. These waste materials are just waiting to be economically viable for reuse.

If you want to see real waste management problem look at plastic recycling.

Western countries are selling plastic garbage to poor countries for "recycling" which usually means either stashing them in landfills, or dumping them into oceans.

Thorium is a tested and proven community scale solution

"Tested and proven at community scale" means that you can contract one of many companies to build a power plant to your specifications, and they build you one.
That's exactly the situation with plants using uranium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TMSR-LF1 (the molten salt plant that China is working on) is a 2MW plant. And if it's successful, they plan to make a 373 MW by 2030.
That's eternity. And definitely not "tested and proven at community scale".

According to climate activists (I'm not) we need to decrease net CO2 emissions ASAP. Preferably to 0% by 2050.
Using well tested technologies can get you at least partially there. Using experimental ones like fusion or molten salt reactors will not.

I stand by my thesis - China is doing it only for publicity. And considering timescales we can't just keep playing with experimental technologies, we need to deploy current well known ones ASAP at scale.

[Freeforester]

I guess you missed the ‘Macron loses Africa’ bit - they aren’t minded to supply France with uranium right now. Thorium has no such strategic issues, it’s found in almost every country on the planet. Price/cost is different from availability.

I’m no nuclear scientist by any means, but I do recognise that conventional nuclear is hugely expensive and takes a lot (an ‘eternity plus’) of time (which we don’t have) to commission, also producing a lot of waste (little of the uranium is used up in a typical cycle), which does require specialist attention over a long time span.

I don’t share your concern about carbon dioxide, which I feel is neither a pollutant, nor a danger to the wellbeing of Man, whereas a lack of it would be fatal. I’m with Will Happer on this one, one of the original ‘climate scientists’.

https://youtu.be/v2nhssPW77I?si=eWZZlCw2AbWXJFbE

I’m not sure whether they’re just doing it for publicity in China, I don’t have any means to verify that, but I think the guys in Copenhagen are planning to roll one out daily off the production line, according to their head guy. I agree, all these things should have been thought about rather more seriously yesterday or even the day before, but we are where we are.

I tend to imagine that if the man from Copenhagen can achieve his target, President Xi won’t be too far behind, if at all, they seem to have less problem in getting things done over there. But who knows?

[atdlzpae]

@Freeforester Yes, the supply problems (having to import nuclear material from foreign countries) make sense from a strategic standpoint.
I hope the engineers manage to figure out molten salt reactors in the next 20-30 years. Until then I'll keep complaining about not enough conventional nuclear.

I personally don't care about CO2. But I really dislike the hypocrisy of modern "ecologists" who fight with CO2 using coal and natural gas.
How I'd love some honest politicians for once...

[skunkmonkey]

Well if the Japanese have their way nuclear power will be very common in the near future. Unlike most of the rest of the world they put all their eggs in the hydrogen vehicle basket instead of the EV basket. Their plan (and what they have successfully proved) is that they can easily create large amounts of red hydrogen using a super safe form of nuclear reactor called HTGR (high temperature gas-cooled reactor). They use helium gas as a coolant for the reactor, and the serendipitous byproduct of super heated helium is the ability to effortlessly create large quantities of red hydrogen. Another benefit of this type of reactor is that it can operate safely at temperatures up to 1800 degrees Fahrenheit (982C). As proof of its safety they intentionally set the reactor to overload and then walked away from it for a week with no intervention. They came back and it was just fine, and well within the limits. Because of the ceramic coating that they use on the nuclear material the reactor isn't capable of leaking radiation even in the almost impossible event of an incident.

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by skunkmonkey

[Aztek]

Seems legit: https://pressat.co.uk/releases/quantum-leap-in-battery-technology-german-start-up-develops-the-worlds-first-solid-state-battery-ready-for-series-production-outstanding-properties-no-cobalt-10-times-longer-service-life-and-non-flammable-electrolyte-da6ab5c47ea238854e2c06a76717612d/

[alcatraz]

A start-up is unlikely going to supply the world. It's nice to see progress though. 

Are there any solid state 18650 or 21700 cells on the market?

[Punxatawneyjoe]

NASA's new solid state battery is looking promising.

https://www.nasa.gov/aeronautics/nasas-solid-state-battery-research-exceeds-initial-goals-draws-interest/

 

[skunkmonkey]

1 hour ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

NASA's new solid state battery is looking promising.

https://www.nasa.gov/aeronautics/nasas-solid-state-battery-research-exceeds-initial-goals-draws-interest/

 

Sadly while it can hold a lot of power, the output is too low. It’s like having a straw attached to a water tower.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

6 hours ago, skunkmonkey said:

the output is too low.

To that end, SABERS has experimented with innovative new materials yet to be used in batteries, which have produced significant progress in power discharge. During the past year, the team successfully increased their battery’s discharge rate by a factor of 10 – and then by another factor of 5 – inching researchers closer to their goal of powering a large vehicle.

8 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

is looking promising.