Inmotion V13 Speculation

[Punxatawneyjoe]

1 hour ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

average power use of 5250 W, which is above the 4500 W  V13 motor rating.

The motor has a peak of 10,000w and looking at the videos it routinely runs above the 4500w rating.

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

1 hour ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

The motor has a peak of 10,000w and looking at the videos it routinely runs above the 4500w rating.

Thats how peak works. It's not rated to sustain more than 4500w for prolonged periods.

[Paul A]

3024Wh battery

 

[yoos]

32 minutes ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

It's not rated to sustain more than 4500w for prolonged periods.

It's not rated indeed, but assuming they have good safety margins it can sustain a bit more. In addition actual sustainable power may depend on weather which affects heat dissipation. Winter allows higher power. Furthermore, I am not sure whether the 2800Wh is the rated capacity or the useful capacity. The useful capacity may be lower so that the calculation is off [as has been discussed on this forum, most EUCs don't allow the cells to go as low as 2.5V, it's usually limited to 3V or higher and depends on manufacturer and even on model. Don't know the stats of the V13 and don't have the time to do the research right now].

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

46 minutes ago, yoos said:

It's not rated indeed, but assuming they have good safety margins it can sustain a bit more. In addition actual sustainable power may depend on weather which affects heat dissipation. Winter allows higher power. Furthermore, I am not sure whether the 2800Wh is the rated capacity or the useful capacity. The useful capacity may be lower so that the calculation is off [as has been discussed on this forum, most EUCs don't allow the cells to go as low as 2.5V, it's usually limited to 3V or higher and depends on manufacturer and even on model. Don't know the stats of the V13 and don't have the time to do the research right now].

Its rated discharge capacity from samsung 35e datasheet. Rdc isn't until 2.5v.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

3 hours ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

Thats how peak works. It's not rated to sustain more than 4500w for prolonged periods.

right but if you are routinely hammering on it and you are getting close to that 10k peak thus making the average higher than what its rated for.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Punxatawneyjoe
missed an and

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

1 hour ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

right but if you are routinely hammering on it and you are getting close to that 10k peak thus making the average higher than what its rated for.

I havent seen the speed test video. It was my impression it was done by cruising at max speed. I hope that cruising at 90 km/h doesnt require >4500 w, but it could be the case that it does.

[UPONIT]

Wait a minute! He wasn't answering the question based on this one ride.  All the theorizing and number crunching isn't really relevant. The actual words he wrote were: "my experience personally has been around 40-50 miles spirited and 60-70 casual" riding.

He is making a simple, calm, summary statement. In his experience, he has gotten a range of mileage from 40 to 70. Add in Speedyfeet's experience of 30 miles when wide open, and the real-world range reported so far becomes: a minimum of 30 miles to a maximum of 70 miles. Without needing to know the nitty gritty details of the two riding styles, we have a real-world approximate min and max.

Not the best range in the world, but it seems about what should be expected. Definitely not some shocking tragic failure. And he was honest. When he had to go home to recharge, the Master Pro still had 70% charge. Turns out 4800 is more than 3024. Who knew?

Hopefully more videos will add more data points and more nitty gritty to chew on.

How often will people need to go around 55 mph for around 30 miles in around 30 minutes?

Edited December 26, 2022 by UPONIT
question

[MrMonoWheel]

On 12/18/2022 at 12:20 PM, MrMonoWheel said:

 

Very interesting

Edited December 26, 2022 by MrMonoWheel

[Eyss]

Marty's done a range test at 30kph average and got 87km range. Seems like the motor is power hungry. 

Now it's coming out in the wild there doesn't seem like there's many reasons to go for the v13 over the master pro. 

I've been really impressed with the hero even after 3000km so I might be a bit biased 

 

Edit: I didn't actually check the master pro prices as my local retailer doesn't have it, but even AliExpress is 1000 to 2000 AUD more than the v13. 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Eyss

[mrelwood]

On 12/26/2022 at 11:45 AM, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

Regarding speedyfeets 48 km range test. If you're going 90 km/h. It would take 32 minutes to travel 48 km. To use 2800 Wh in 32 minutes would require an average power use of 5250 W, which is above the 4500 W  V13 motor rating.

You can’t ride the battery empty with spirited riding, as it starts to limit both your max speed as well as max acceleration far far before the battery hits 0%. And like has been said, even then the voltage would still be at 3.15V per cell group.

A range test doesn’t tell us much unless the end voltage / battery level of the test is disclosed. Someone used to make range tests that he stopped immediately when he met any kind of warning or limitation. On some wheels that can be as high as 50% battery. Other range tests can run to a crawling tilt-back, which is about the mentioned 3.15V per cell group.

 

5 minutes ago, Eyss said:

Now it's coming out in the wild there doesn't seem like there's many reasons to go for the v13 over the master pro.

Except almost every single thing there is to a wheel and it’s servicing, other than speed and range.

Edited December 28, 2022 by mrelwood

[UPONIT]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

A range test doesn’t tell us much

So far we have 3 test results from 3 known riders:

.......MAX MOTOR.......................CASUAL
#1.....40-50 miles.....................60-70 miles
#2.....30 miles........................N/A.................
#3.....N/A.............................54 miles (@18mph avg.)

The three tests don't differ wildly. No unusual claims are being made. How much more helpful or accurate would the results be with endless additional minutiae of detail in the data? After all, no one will ever again ride an EUC under all those same exact conditions?

So what do we do? We estimate. Are we likely to find out the range is really 12 miles at max, or 300 miles at 18mph average? No. It's probably going to be around what these riders have reported, plus or minus my or your fat or skinny *ss.
 

Spoiler

Also of note: My own comparison method (that you hate) says the 4.5kW motor powered by a 3kWh battery should run for 40 minutes at its maximum output. (Whatever speed/load ratio happens to be causing that maximum output doesn't matter).

That seems to roughly agree with these results, no?

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by UPONIT
emojification

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, UPONIT said:

The three tests don't differ wildly.

Not wildly, but by a lot. 30 to 50 miles with a similar riding style is a 66% difference. I don’t know what anyone would do with that kind of “information”.

2 hours ago, UPONIT said:

How much more helpful or accurate would the results be with endless additional minutiae of detail in the data?

Endless and minutiae you say? Very accurate! But that’s pointless. We’re all looking for reasonable.

 Check your power consumption from any app, and multiply with the battery capacity. Two values, not any more complicated than your method, and has been shown to be reasonably accurate. If you plan to ride faster, just take that into account.

2 hours ago, UPONIT said:

After all, no one will ever again ride an EUC under all those same exact conditions?

You are exactly right.

2 hours ago, UPONIT said:

 

  Hide contents

Also of note: My own comparison method (that you hate) says the 4.5kW motor powered by a 3kWh battery should run for 40 minutes at its maximum output. (Whatever speed/load ratio happens to be causing that maximum output doesn't matter).

That seems to roughly agree with these results, no?

 

Like I demonstrated to you before, it is highly inaccurate. Much more so than just extrapolating from the battery capacity alone. Let alone calculating from the actual consumption.

[MrMonoWheel]

Even if the v13 ends up being underwhelming in range and handling, the technological advances they made in terms of safety, build quality, and pre-release testing sets a new standard that all manufacturers should try to match and exceed. This wheel will do a lot for the industry regardless of how many people buy it. It shows that it's possible.

Edited December 28, 2022 by MrMonoWheel

[yoos]

1 hour ago, MrMonoWheel said:

This wheel will do a lot for the industry regardless of how many people buy it.

I still hope many people will, if only to reward the initiative and encourage further innovation and improvement. And also to provide more field testing.

 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Like I demonstrated to you before, it is highly inaccurate. Much more so than just extrapolating from the battery capacity alone. Let alone calculating from the actual consumption.

Indeed, it amazes me how people stick to the car experience mindset where range is something mostly determined by the car itself (in most places around the world your "car riding style" is very much constrained by traffic and rules and does little to affect consumption).

Asking for the range of an EUC is perhaps like asking about a whiskey bottle - how long does it last you? You only need one metric -- volume of the bottle, multiplied by your personal consumption rate. Little point in asking other drinkers.

Same with EUCs: if you already ride an EUC, the best you can do is take the range you are getting on your old EUC, multiply by the battery capacity ratio and you have a pretty decent estimate: new range = old range * (new battery/old battery). If you are switching to a faster wheel just be prepared that your riding style will probably grow speedier and thus range will decrease. That's all there is to it. 

*whiskey is not the best comparison maybe but I want to stress that your personal current consumption combined with the battery capacity are a better predictor than the experience of our fellow addicts

[mrelwood]

10 minutes ago, yoos said:

Asking for the range of an EUC is perhaps like asking about a whiskey bottle - how long does it last you? You only need one metric -- volume of the bottle, multiplied by your personal consumption rate. Little point in asking other drinkers.

Very well said! With your permission I will use the whiskey example from now on. 

I just wish my EUC battery would last even 0.01% of how long a whiskey bottle lasts with my current usage… 

[UPONIT]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

Not wildly, but by a lot. 30 to 50 miles with a similar riding style is a 66% difference. I don’t know what anyone would do with that kind of “information”.

Endless and minutiae you say? Very accurate! But that’s pointless. We’re all looking for reasonable.

 Check your power consumption from any app, and multiply with the battery capacity. Two values, not any more complicated than your method, and has been shown to be reasonably accurate. If you plan to ride faster, just take that into account.

You are exactly right.

Like I demonstrated to you before, it is highly inaccurate. Much more so than just extrapolating from the battery capacity alone. Let alone calculating from the actual consumption.

Do you think this is a "reasonable" conclusion? The V13 has an estimated range of between 30 and 70 miles (depending on riding style and other variables).

I think the rest is just a disconnect of language or something.

Spoiler

This is all said in the spirit of friendly discussion and shared interest.

I can't resist picking a few nits.

The results don't differ by "a lot." Statistics are just easy to misuse. First, you selected the upper end of his range (50 instead of 40) to maximize the difference. So 33%, not 66%.

Second, that isn't the way our brains compare the numbers. We judge each number against some "ideal."  Example: If you are on a group ride full of Master Pros getting 400 miles of range, 40 miles (10%) isn't proportionally that much better than 30 miles (7.5%) on your V13.

Also, you didn't demonstrate that my calculation is highly inaccurate. It just didn't seem worth debating, since I use the same metrics you mention, just calling them different things. My unscientific, oversimplified "formula" gave me this estimate before any results were in:

A 4500W constant draw would use up 3024 Watt hours in 40 minutes.

And If Speedyfeet rode 45 mph and went 30 miles, he rode for 40 minutes!   What an unbelievably accurate prediction!

All of this is a stew of variables that can't have a definitive, absolute right "answer." I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with?

I'm curious what you, or anyone, would "extrapolate" the V13's range to be? Better question: How would you answer someone who asked, while jogging by, "What's the range on that thing?"

Anyway, thanks again for the perspectives. Always entertaining.

Edited December 28, 2022 by UPONIT
i dunno

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

I would say up to 90 miles and double that if you ride at 10 km/h. 90 miles / 140 km is around 20 wh/km

[Freeforester]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Very well said! With your permission I will use the whiskey example from now on. 

I just wish my EUC battery would last even 0.01% of how long a whiskey bottle lasts with my current usage… 

You’ll ‘do better’ with many by comparing it to Scotch whisky than Irish whiskey…. In the long run - I’ve got a bottle of the latter stuff which is more likely to form dendrites than ever be finished in this house, but the native elixir goes down faster than Speedy Feet Ian ‘on a promise’!

[UPONIT]

Edited December 28, 2022 by UPONIT
tide

[Paul A]

Perhaps ask SpeedyFeet to conduct a range test, with a lower constant speed.

To better reflect 'normal' usage.

Highlight the dramatic reduction in range from excessive speed.

Etc.

 

Ian did ask for questions/suggestions via comments, for the upcoming 250/500/1000 km reviews.

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

Do you think this is a "reasonable" conclusion? The V13 has an estimated range of between 30 and 70 miles (depending on riding style and other variables).

My guess is that with calm slow speed riding the range can be more. So no.

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

 

  Hide contents

First, you selected the upper end of his range (50 instead of 40) to maximize the difference. So 33%, not 66%.

30-50 miles was simply the range of the given aggressive ride results.

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

I'm curious what you, or anyone, would "extrapolate" the V13's range to be? Better question: How would you answer someone who asked, while jogging by, "What's the range on that thing?"

I'd answer the range that I would've normally gotten with my personal riding style, which would probably be around 60-70 miles.

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

Second, that isn't the way our brains compare the numbers. We judge each number against some "ideal."  Example: If you are on a group ride full of Master Pros getting 400 miles of range, 40 miles (10%) isn't proportionally that much better than 30 miles (7.5%) on your V13.

Percentage is for comparing two values. In your example you compare 40 to 400, and then 30 to 400. I compared the minimum (30) and maximum (50) of the given range of values against each other. I don't see the point in scaling the perspective in any other way. Of course if you compare having 1 or 10 toothpicks left in a jar of 500 toothpicks, the jar is almost empty on both cases. But the other is still ten times more.

Why are we discussing this again...?

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

Also, you didn't demonstrate that my calculation is highly inaccurate.

I can do it again:

KS 16S, 840Wh battery, 1200W motor. Your suggestion: 42 minutes of full power. Real life range: 35 km.

V11, 1500Wh battery, 2200W motor. Your suggestion: 41 minutes of full power. Real life range: 60km.

V13, 3024Wh battery, 4500W motor. Your suggestion: 40 minutes. Real life range: unknown, probably 100-110 km.

Per your calculation, all the wheels should have practically identical range, while in reality the V11 has 71% more range than the 16S.

The power consumptions for the a 16S and V11 were 24 and 25 Wh/km. That's about how much my riding style seems to consume energy, no matter which wheel I'm on. Therefore it stands to reason to use that as the basis for the range estimation, since it's an accurate presentation and doesn't vary much between wheels.

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

It just didn't seem worth debating, since I use the same metrics you mention, just calling them different things.

Same metrics...? I'm not sure if they could be much more different!

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

My unscientific, oversimplified "formula" gave me this estimate before any results were in:

A 4500W constant draw would use up 3024 Watt hours in 40 minutes.

And If Speedyfeet rode 45 mph and went 30 miles, he rode for 40 minutes!   What an unbelievably accurate prediction!

Where did the 45 mph come from? I didn't see it being mentioned.

One more thing, if one keeps blasting until the wheel starts to beep or tilt-back, there's still 30-50% of battery left. Either you slow down or end the range test. So one can't draw 4500W anywhere near until the battery is empty.

Either way, calculating how fast the battery gets drained with a constant nominal wattage draw doesn't do anything for estimating real life range.

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with?

I'm disagreeing with the usage of such a vague value as the motor wattage as a basis for any calculation related to range. Motor nominal wattage isn't even a standardized measure, and is clearly affected by the marketing department, since it has sometimes been increased with a mere software update.

 

Would you like to discuss the topic further under a new thread?

[UPONIT]

24 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Would you like to discuss the topic further under a new thread?

Nope.

[Paul A]

Is it possible to simply extrapolate, without needing to ride a battery to zero?

 

Eg:

Ride at a constant speed of 20kph, for 10km, determine the battery % consumed.  Extrapolate to determine range, at that speed.

Repeat exercise with 30kph, 40kph, 50kph, etc....

 

Members could then have an estimated range, based on their own known average riding speed.

Probably result in a logarithmic curve.

 

With:

Y axis - distance

X axis - speed

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Paul A

[conecones]

I don't know anyone in our ride group that is this obsessed with calculating range. Most seem happy with a VERY rough estimate, and whether the wheel tends to be power hungry (EXN) or power conserving (18XL/V11). We all know going faster = drain battery faster. So now we see from tests V13 is on the power hungry side when pushed, which is completely unsurprising.

Most people who know they will drain their battery past 30% bring a charger. A lot of riders who like to ride fast bring the charger regardless. The range "issue" is gone once you ride with a charger.

Seems like the people ragging on the V13 range and doing some cost/WH/range value comparison with Begode is just looking for something to hate on. In real world use and especially group rides, chargers are always brought, and the rides are organized by battery size categories. Next year the Master Pro guys will be riding by themselves or waiting with the rest of the 2700-3600WH group. That's the penalty for having a battery bigger than everyone else