Incline obsession?!

[RagingGrandpa]

As discussed below:

On 5/10/2021 at 3:06 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

As @Chriull pointed out a long time ago, for low speeds like comparing 5mph to 10mph, maintaining a constant speed on a constant grade requires roughly the same motor current (therefore: same torque) for various speeds. "Same current" then implies:

• Heat dissipation in the control board (e.g.: FETs) and motor cables would be no different when climbing faster.
• For a given total rise distance, the duration of the climb (and therefore the heating duration) is shorter with the higher speed, and so the peak temperatures reached would be cooler for the higher speed.

With the higher speed, a higher motor voltage will be delivered, and therefore a higher battery pack current (more heat dissipation in the battery pack) and higher system power... but the bottlenecks limiting the hillclimb are not regarding the battery current nor motor voltage, so the higher system power makes no difference with regard to overheating the controller. Controller output current is what matters here.

If speed becomes much faster than 10mph, aerodynamic drag causes additional torque and current to be required, and so the benefit will go away.
There is a sweet spot regarding the "coolest" speed to climb any given hill. Not too slow, not too fast.
 

Practical advice: if you have overheating problems climbing a paved hill at 5mph, don't be afraid to try 10mph: it is likely to result in a cooler board temperature once you reach the top.

(But, don't expect improvement going from 20mph to 25mph.)

[Resko727]

27 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

Okay so I did a tiny bit looking around on this. I may very well be wrong in my earlier conjecture and contrast. I am reading claims that with electric motors that actual peak torque is at zero RPM. BUT, peak torque on an electric motor is also peak current. This makes sense to me for numerous reasons including plain old observation. Both cut outs and failures almost always show under heavy demands.

Your right I mixed up  peak tq  and peak power. 

[Resko727]

12 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

As discussed below:

that is very interesting and seems to hold true in practice. Thank you for sharing 

On some gotway models the board is cooled by air moving by the spinning tire I would imagine the the tire the better.

[Rawnei]

Regardless of specs and degree of hill it's not like you're gonna stop and measure the incline before you ride a hill. Why can't the Sherman or EXN disengage the motor if it's under too much stress like so many other wheels? (WrongWay Inmotion V12 climb test is a good and clear example)

I'm also convinced they would have no problem climbing if the motherboard had a bit beefier components or an updated design to address the weak points, with so many blown boards there should be a big base for postmortem investigations to clearly see where it's failing.

5 hours ago, Resko727 said:

The one thing I found interesting about Marty’s test. is in one of the videos he rides with another guy on a ex from euco and Marty is on something I can’t remember v11 or whatever. They run overheat hill no problems they switch and do whole course again and Marty over heats the ex. There conclusion was that Marty is a slower rider so he puts more heat in the wheel. So after that I pretty much concluded that if you want to do steep terrain  with powerful wheels better pick up the speed. 

It's not always so simple, if it's off-road then it's technical and you don't want to go too fast over gravel, roots, rocks or uneven terrain, if the ground is packed then sure just go faster.

[drader]

"Does anyone climb those kinds of angles on a daily basis on their rides?" YES. I live in a very hilly part of the bay area, and I am not light so torque is a big part of the equation. I've been overpowering the Nik fairly often lately. Frankly - I would love to have a C38 Nikola, but it will never happen as most of this industry is obsessed with speed.

[Electric Dreams]

On 6/2/2021 at 3:41 PM, Kamikaze_K said:

I'm sorry but this is probably a rant post... The latest video from Electric Dreams has got me a little annoyed.  What is the obsession with climbing steep inclines repeated going to achieve?  Does anyone climb those kinds of angles on a daily basis on their rides?  Wrong Way does those steep inclines too but at least it's part of his review process.  

He's never really liked the Sherman from the get go so I just found this video pure click bait.  Pointless vid IMO.  The fact that he also burnt out his EX-N during this climb obsession vid really didn't achieve anything but to prove that you can give yourself a big repair bill on not one but two wheels if you set your mind to it. 

Is the Sherman perfect? Hell No! But is a Sherman assembled better than all the Gotway/Begode wheels from the factory?  Resounding YES.   I'd rather have a wheel that I don't have to open up and check if the numpties at the factory did their jobs right the moment I receive it.  The Sherman AND EX-N are high speed cruising wheels.  If you want torque to go up insane inclines, there are better wheels with high torque motors out there!  Maybe you can go burn them out too ED. *GIANT EYE ROLL*

 

I'm sorry you got annoyed. 

But heres my response which Ive also shared on FB and my Youtube
In a recent video I posted on my channel I burned out both the EXN and the Sherman. The results surprised me, but what really surprised me was the feedback from riders who felt that if you took a wheel up a hill it should burn out like that, because it “wasn’t meant for it”. No wheel should leave you stranded because during engineering stage it failed to implement proper safety measures and temperature sensors. Why have those become accustomed to giving these brands excuses that these wheels are “good enough”, that is not the attitude we had to get to the wheels we have today. As an 8 year rider myself I have no prejudice to any brand. I just want all EUCs to be better in terms of safety for everyone. ✌️🤟

[Electric Dreams]

Just now, Jack King Song said:

I'm sorry you got annoyed. 

But heres my response which Ive also shared on FB and my Youtube
In a recent video I posted on my channel I burned out both the EXN and the Sherman. The results surprised me, but what really surprised me was the feedback from riders who felt that if you took a wheel up a hill it should burn out like that, because it “wasn’t meant for it”. No wheel should leave you stranded because during engineering stage it failed to implement proper safety measures and temperature sensors. Why have those become accustomed to giving these brands excuses that these wheels are “good enough”, that is not the attitude we had to get to the wheels we have today. As an 8 year rider myself I have no prejudice to any brand. I just want all EUCs to be better in terms of safety for everyone. ✌️🤟

For the record, I love my Veteran, I annoyed people to buy this wheel, and they have and they loved it. It's just not perfect, nothing will ever be, but nor should our attitude be "thats it". I'll take responsibility for perhaps the way I portrayed everything in the video may have skewed your opinion to what it is right now.

[enaon]

16 minutes ago, Jack King Song said:

or the record, I love my Veteran, I annoyed people to buy this wheel, and they have and they loved it. It's just not perfect, nothing will ever be, but nor should our attitude be "thats it". I'll take responsibility for perhaps the way I portrayed everything in the video may have skewed your opinion to what it is right now.

I agree with your main point, but I think you should have made it clear that you are affiliated with KS on the burn down video.

 

any news on the new wheel? 

[Electric Dreams]

14 minutes ago, enaon said:

I agree with your main point, but I think you should have made it clear that you are affiliated with KS on the burn down video.

 

any news on the new wheel? 

my affiliation doesnt change what i portray in my video. If a product is good its good. I was not going to that hill do destroy it, I was going there to show the EXN could climb better than Veteran. I WAS NOT expecting it to burn up nor the EXN to also give out after a 5-7 rides up. 

[enaon]

2 minutes ago, Jack King Song said:

my affiliation doesnt change what i portray in my video.

I am not saying they would go up otherwise, but nevertheless, I think fairplay says you should state those things in advance. 

 

back on the important subject, any news on the new wheel? 

[Electric Dreams]

11 hours ago, enaon said:

I am not saying they would go up otherwise, but nevertheless, I think fairplay says you should state those things in advance. 

 

back on the important subject, any news on the new wheel? 

 stay posted on social media, we wont rush into launch just to be first in line and repeat S18.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Jack King Song

[Scottie888]

I'm also one who's enamored with inclines. Besides the fact that alot (if not most) mtb trails involve inclines (ascent & descent), its also super fun. IMO & IME, it takes more skill & hence more satisfaction derived, from doing a dirt/pebbly incline/decline than just going fast in a straight line. Its also more safer should the unintended occur, unless ofcos the unexpected involves a Grand Canyon type fall.

Which is why I'm in awe of the mtb boyz doing Porcupine Rim Moab &or Bootleg Canyon Nevada but I digress. Much as I love doing trails on my S18, its nowhere nohow comparably to mtbs in that sense.

Nevertheless, what EUCs can do, its a boatload of laughs. & Doing inclines is part & parcel of it. Wheels should not overheat as otherwise, its just lousy engineering. Even if it overheats, there ought to be audible & slowdown warnings before stoppage. Mobo burnouts are unacceptable. IMO ofcos

[.....]

5 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

 stay posted on social media, we wont rush into launch just to be first in line and repeat S18.

I am definitely staying tuned in to ALL releases. I was a heavy KS fanboi until recently. I would LOVE to be that way again. You notice the market IS willing to pay a premium IF, the specs and F**KING quality warrants it. Im waiting on an offroad wheel. A NICHE wheel that compromises in areas fit for speed but excells in areas fit for climb. Suspension would be nice, but IT HAS to work from the get go. Real bearings, real bushings, real bolts. I could go without music, fancy lights, extra screens, and hell, I would even overlook the loss of a bad*ss trolley like you normally have. Aint nothin wrong with the simple circle design cases.  When I chance a buy at another offroad wheel, it needs be simple as hell, no gimmicks. Torque for days and a battery that is protected like in the 18L series. Toss in all kinds of user setable alarms and realtime protection circuits, and I could easily drop serious coin and not feel robbed. No sharp angles/edges, finished/recessed headlight assembly, good pedal clearance, REAL rim to fit a motorcycle/scooter tire, water proof, quality fasteners, flexible panels and a no nonsense approach that we can repair and rely on. Ks firmware is the bomb! I would like another ride mode added. Make it only unlockable after ltosa miles if you must. Call it torque mode! Amplify ALL user inputs so we can lay that thing into a hill and not have to drag our noses.

I'd much rather KS chase that list and stick with the vast market of general purpose wheels, than to fight the other guys for speed king status. I dont know what sells more, speed demon wheels, or off road wheels? I assume the BULK of sales is still going for middle of the road/reliable general purpose. Im a consumer tho, I want what I want and business strategy for sales doesnt concern me. One thing ALL my wheels have in common that concerns me. Battery management and charging monitoring... Batteries cost too damn much and are too vital to safety in various areas, to be neglecting doing EVERYTHING possible to ensure their longevity. We should start a gofundme page. Maybe we could pay ANY company enough to complete proper burn in testing on ALL products before shipping.

Edited June 10, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

I’m too lazy to go back and quote each relevant comment, but here goes:

I also think that there are two main points for incline tests: 1. How steep can it go, and 2. what happens when it no longer can.

 As the replies already show, there are a lot of riders that are on the heavier side and/or live in a very hilly terrain. For them, both aspects above are crucial.

 One point though, is that looking back a few years, we’ve already gotten many times the climbability we had just 4 years ago. The chase for more will never end. In 4 years from now we will probably have wheels that could climb my fat ass up the Overheat Hill in record speed many times over, but Wrong Way will still be doing the tests. It will just be on 50 and 60 degree inclines. We’re humans, nothing will ever be “enough”.

I was VERY happy to see @Jack King Song‘s comments! For one, the fact that they don’t want to “repeat S18”. That tells us a lot. 

@ShanesPlanet’s reply would again be worthy of a full quote, but I’ll adamantly continue without any. What he describes is EXACTLY the wheel I’m looking for as well! He does weigh maybe half of what I do  so the torque we’re hoping for would probably climb him straight up a tree trunk, but I’ll just be happy as long as the grip of an off-road tire gives in first. AND as long as it doesn’t blow up at the end, so we know we can always try if we’ll be able to get up an incline. Not enough torque? All cool, just don’t make us walk home.