King Song 14 C Mark 3 800W 680WH Review

[fearedbliss]

Hello all,

So I've been riding the Mark 3 king song for about a month now and there is definitely a lot of good to say, and a little bit of bad.

The good thing is that this thing is a beast. Extremely powerful, exceptionally long battery life (I'm 59 kg ~ 130 pounds, and so I get about 35 miles on a single charge). The speed of the device unlocked goes at rougly 20 miles per hour (Actual 18.64 MPH, can be pushed a little bit more but you risk overleaning) - I vaguely remember @Cloud pushing it to 20.50 mph (33 kph), but you will really need to push it above its limit for this.

The front light and tail lights are both very good as well. The back light is normally more dim than the headlight, but when you break, the tail light will light up completely. Thus the lights are both very bright.

The sound system is very very loud. I normally didn't have music playing on the highest volume since I didn't want to bother people around me. However, if you thought people looked at you in astonishment when you were just riding the wheel, they will have a brain hemorrhage when they hear you riding and playing music. Music takes it to the next level. People will freak out and try to understand if music is actually coming out of a small moving wheel.

The bluetooth system works well as well. I can connect both the app and the music at the same time. There are two bluetooth networks for this.

The KS doesn't get firmware updates which is really nice because so far I've ridden it probably 100 miles? and it hasn't died on me or anything, so I feel confident on it. Knowing that I don't get firmware updates, gives me extra confidence in riding. Ninebot has a bad reputation for firmware updates and this gravely concerns me.

The KS Mark 3 also does have a USB port, but it is actually behind the case. So it is there, it might work (I haven't plugged anything on it), but they just didn't make a whole in the case. You could carve this yourself if you want. There is a small usb shape indentation in the inner plastic, but the outer plastic doesn't have it. I heard they did this in order to increase the waterproofing. Waterproofing, seems to work well. It has been raining this whole week in New York and it took the water well. I was also riding with an umbrella as well, but it got a good amount of soaking and it seemed fine.

As for the app, it is very basic and under developed. The Ninebot application is way way better. There isn't much to say about the app, but it basically gives you access to the core settings you would need. You won't be using the app much though so it isn't a bad thing. Honestly, all they really need to do is a GUI redesign.

However here comes the bad, and pretty much what makes the KS unusable for me.. So it's a combination of the following:

1. No rubber on pedals to prevent slipping when wet
2. Small pedals
3. Shape of Case
4. 14" Wheel

So since it has been raining the whole week, I've noticed that I was getting a lot of pain in the inner femur muscles on my legs. This was happening because I was pretty much slipping off the pedals when I was riding and I was subconsciously breaking, and fixing myself. Which leads to the other point which is the small pedals. Having small pedals means I have less room to move and to be comfortable, and increases the frequency of me having to fix myself because of slipping off. @Cloud put some grip tape (like a sand paper type of paper) on the pedals and that helped a lot. It made it usable again in the rain, but my body was still aching. My feet were also burning, feeling more tired a lot faster than what I felt on my Ninebot. One thing I noticed is that depending on what angle you turn on the KS, the KS will "lock" into that place and then it could move as you are riding. So basically if you start the KS with it more with a pointed head, then when you move it towards the center, the pedals will be at a higher angle, which this actually makes it more comfortable for me to ride because I don't have to lean as much or push as much in order to pick up acceleration. However, this angle will gradually go
back towards the center, and eventually I believe it will move towards the pedals pointed slightly downward. At this point, picking up more acceleration will place more strain on your feet, which will cause the center of your feet to burn more. If you start the KS at a lower angle, you will basically start at a worst case scenario.

The shape of the case is also horrible. The ninebot case is slim, it is more "oval" or "circle-ish" and thinner. This makes it so that the ankles don't touch the sides of the device, and it also makes it so that different parts of your legs don't have to be so close, or tight on the device. It is a more natural standing up position, rather than a more opened position. The KS case is more boxy, and less ergonomic.

The 14" wheel is fine for the most part, but I would feel safer on a 16" wheel. I think that because of the size of the wheel, KS made smaller pedals and a smaller (but more boxy case). The 14" wheel probably could be fine if they increased the pedal size, added strong rubber (anti-rain) padding, and also made the case slim. I know that the new KS 16" wheel basically copied the Ninebot design and these concerns might be alleviated.

For now I think I'll be selling the KS though and switching back to an E+. We will see what happens.

- Jonathan

 

[SlowMo]

@Jason McNeil has newly shaped pedals that might solve the problem. As for the shape of the box, I don't know why King Song still sticks to the original design even though it's a Mark III.

[Cloud]

4 minutes ago, SlowMo said:

@Jason McNeil has newly shaped pedals that might solve the problem. As for the shape of the box, I don't know why King Song still sticks to the original design even though it's a Mark III.

I say this to feabliss also, but he seems to feel that the stance on the 14" is uncomfortable even if the pedals were bigger.

kingsong is a rather small company , i believe theyve been concentrating on the 16" model lately, i dont think they will be making big design changes in the 14" in the near future, but who knows

[houseofjob]

@fearedbliss @SlowMo King Song and Gotway are boxy because they fit 2 batteries down each leg and thus have to put the motherboard horizontally up top. This is currently the only way you can make enough space to fit 2+ battery packs to get more than 340wh battery capacity in an EUC. 

If you open up an NB1, they sacrifice the ability to get higher battery capacity in order to slim the uni down. The board fits vertically down one leg, and there is only one other leg space left to fit just 1 battery pack down the other leg. This is why the upgrade to the NB1P did not go drastically up from the previous E+'s ~340wh capacity (same case designs for both). The KS16 prototype in pictures looks boxy, consistent with the fact that it is 680wh capacity, ie. 2 packs.

Also, if you feel foot pain, you should not be situated on your feet on the pedals with your middle arches centered, you should stand more centered on the rear heel part of the feet. I had pain on long rides on my old NB1E+, but that went away when I adjusted to this positioning; same for my current KS-18A 800W 680wh mkII (I have no more pain). It really applies to most EUCs, not just King Song, dependent on your relative foot size compared to pedal size.

[SlowMo]

3 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

@fearedbliss @SlowMo King Song and Gotway are boxy because they fit 2 batteries down each leg and thus have to put the motherboard horizontally up top. This is currently the only way you can make enough space to fit 2 battery packs to get more than 340wh battery capacity in an EUC. 

If you open up an NB1, they sacrifice the ability to get higher battery capacity in order to slim the uni down. The board fits vertically down one leg, and there is only one other leg space left to fit just 1 battery pack down the other leg. This is why the upgrade to the NB1P did not go drastically up from the previous E+'s ~340wh capacity (same case designs for both). The KS16 prototype in pictures looks boxy, consistent with the fact that it is 680wh capacity, ie. 2 packs.

Also, if you feel foot pain, you should not be situated on your feet on the pedals with your middle arches centered, you should stand more centered on the rear heel part of the feet. I had pain on long rides on my old NB1E+, but that went away when I adjusted to this positioning; same for my current KS-18A 800W 680wh mkII (I have no more pain). It really applies to most EUCs, not just King Song, dependent on your relative foot size compared to pedal size.

Hmm. I have six different types of EUC's now and see the trend moving to a more circular fashion. That is why the KS-16 is trying to adopt but with a moustache.

[Cloud]

@houseofjob so what about gotway msm4? Its high capacity battery, i thought it was slimmer than kingsong? What is the control board orientation there?

i just looked it up, i guess gotway is only half inch thinner than kingsong..

[houseofjob]

They could have slimmed the board a little (still up top), but it still widens out towards the bottom cushions (hard to tell in pics with the black cushions on both colors of the model), and is still noticeably wider than the Ninebot.

https://youtu.be/fjgL3U4ylkI (see top view at 16:41)

[SlowMo]

Oops.

Isn't this thread about King Song 14-C review?

[Cloud]

5 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

They could have slimmed the board a little (still up top), but it still widens out towards the bottom cushions (hard to tell in pics with the black cushions on both colors of the model), and is still noticeably wider than the Ninebot.

https://youtu.be/fjgL3U4ylkI (see top view at 16:41)

Cool video. 

 

[houseofjob]

This guy here stands significantly more bowl-legged than you do on an NB1, albeit, yes, not as extreme as the KS-14

[Cloud]

2 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

This guy here stands significantly more bowl-legged than you do on an NB1

Why not provide wider pedals so that the feet can be moved apart for a straighter leg position and install them higher to avoid scraping the pavement during turns? I guess it can make it a little harder to control the wheel though...

[houseofjob]

1 minute ago, Cloud said:

Why not provide wider pedals so that the feet can be moved apart for a straighter leg position and install them higher to avoid scraping the pavement during turns? I guess it can make it a little harder to control the wheel though...

Got me there. My vote would be for longer pedals, not wider, to avoid more pedal scrape. MCM4 here looks low, but I can say both my KS-18A & IPS Zero feel sufficiently high enough for me to avoid too much pedal scraping.

[Cloud]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

Got me there. My vote would be for longer pedals, not wider, to avoid more pedal scrape. MCM4 here looks low, but I can say both my KS-18A & IPS Zero feel sufficiently high enough for me to avoid too much pedal scraping.

Longer of course, goes without saying...and doesnt interfere with the pavement...should be made,longer...but we were discussing bowed legs..longer pedals wouldnt help in that sense.

right now high enough, but if someone did make them wider they would start scraping and would need to be raised...

[esaj]

9 hours ago, houseofjob said:

King Song and Gotway are boxy because they fit 2 batteries down each leg and thus have to put the motherboard horizontally up top. This is currently the only way you can make enough space to fit 2+ battery packs to get more than 340wh battery capacity in an EUC. 

If you open up an NB1, they sacrifice the ability to get higher battery capacity in order to slim the uni down. The board fits vertically down one leg, and there is only one other leg space left to fit just 1 battery pack down the other leg. This is why the upgrade to the NB1P did not go drastically up from the previous E+'s ~340wh capacity (same case designs for both). The KS16 prototype in pictures looks boxy, consistent with the fact that it is 680wh capacity, ie. 2 packs.

680Wh is 4 packs. Also, Firewheel has been available since sometime late August/September 2014, has fairly slim circular design, up to 4 battery packs (2 per side) and vertically aligned mainboardS.

 

 

 

[houseofjob]

35 minutes ago, esaj said:

680Wh is 4 packs. Also, Firewheel has been available since sometime late August/September 2014, has fairly slim circular design, up to 4 battery packs (2 per side) and vertically aligned mainboardS.

 

 

 

Ah, didn't know that. How / where do they situate the board on the firewheel then?

[esaj]

4 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Ah, didn't know that. How / where do they situate the board on the firewheel then?

It's behind that metal plate seen in the second picture. The first picture shows the compartment behind it. I've added those hot-glued pieces of piping to ease with the wiring.

There's a smaller secondary PCB seen inside one of the battery compartments in the 2nd picture in my above post.That one handles the front- & taillight and uses the taillight as brake light (making it brighter during braking), and the recorded voice messages.

[fearedbliss]

10 hours ago, houseofjob said:

@fearedbliss @SlowMo King Song and Gotway are boxy because they fit 2 batteries down each leg and thus have to put the motherboard horizontally up top. This is currently the only way you can make enough space to fit 2+ battery packs to get more than 340wh battery capacity in an EUC. 

If you open up an NB1, they sacrifice the ability to get higher battery capacity in order to slim the uni down. The board fits vertically down one leg, and there is only one other leg space left to fit just 1 battery pack down the other leg. This is why the upgrade to the NB1P did not go drastically up from the previous E+'s ~340wh capacity (same case designs for both). The KS16 prototype in pictures looks boxy, consistent with the fact that it is 680wh capacity, ie. 2 packs.

Also, if you feel foot pain, you should not be situated on your feet on the pedals with your middle arches centered, you should stand more centered on the rear heel part of the feet. I had pain on long rides on my old NB1E+, but that went away when I adjusted to this positioning; same for my current KS-18A 800W 680wh mkII (I have no more pain). It really applies to most EUCs, not just King Song, dependent on your relative foot size compared to pedal size.

Standing with the back part of your foot centered seems to be dangerous since you will be standing too forward on the pedals and breaking back or some other type of movement might mean that you will slip and fall backwards. I've tried various methods though.

[Jason McNeil]

@fearedbliss, I too am not a fan of the KS's pedals; however, have you tried

1. Changing the calibration angle of the pedals to a couple degrees back from the default 1-2° forward dip?
2. Use the medium ride setting (it takes some adjustment), but I find it makes the ride more comfortable. 

New design pedals are coming & can be fitted to the existing pedal mount. 

 

[esaj]

4 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

@fearedbliss, I too am not a fan of the KS's pedals; however, have you tried

1. Changing the calibration angle of the pedals to a couple degrees back from the default 1-2° forward dip?
2. Use the medium ride setting (it takes some adjustment), but I find it makes the ride more comfortable. 

New design pedals are coming & can be fitted to the existing pedal mount. 

 

Looks a lot like the Firewheel-pedals (and those are really comfortable, although I haven't tried that many EUCs). The best I've had, but I can only compare the "split-type" in the generic vs. Firewheel vs. Vee's MCM2s.

Couldn't find any better picture right now, here's the Firewheel-motor & pedals in a custom frame. The red bumper-padding I've added has come off a bit...

[Jason McNeil]

The best designed pedals I've tried so far are the Uniwheels: excellent grip, super-light, no-scrapping on turns & good surface area.

For me, the single most important factor to foot comfort while riding is having 100% heal support. A couple months back I contacted Moticon to see if they would be interested in collaborating in a more scientific approach to foot-comfort, rider & pedal design variability, but they never replied

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaPMj1TKYY4

Urgh, why is it that the forum backend system sometimes embeds the video, while at other times not? 

[OliverH]

15 minutes ago, esaj said:

Looks a lot like the Firewheel-pedals (and those are really comfortable, although I haven't tried that many EUCs). The best I've had, but I can only compare the "split-type" in the generic vs. Firewheel vs. Vee's MCM2s.

Couldn't find any better picture right now, here's the Firewheel-motor & pedals in a custom frame. The red bumper-padding I've added has come off a bit...

But the main different it that the Firewheel ones are solid and really very good - outstanding. The new KS will be slippery as the Ninebot rubber is. Users will put away the rubber stuff and replace it by a sand paper used on public stairs. I put this also on my IPS pedals, a dream.

[fearedbliss]

14 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

@fearedbliss, I too am not a fan of the KS's pedals; however, have you tried

1. Changing the calibration angle of the pedals to a couple degrees back from the default 1-2° forward dip?
2. Use the medium ride setting (it takes some adjustment), but I find it makes the ride more comfortable. 

New design pedals are coming & can be fitted to the existing pedal mount. 

 

I tried calibrating it by doing the level calibration and making the wheel be more tilt back, but I haven't really noticed any difference.

I'm riding on play mode, I believe that it is the middle one. I tried the other modes before and didn't really feel that safe on them.

Those pedals seem nice. Are they bigger than the stock ones and if so by how much? Also is that a rubber interior? If you've tested them, is the grip good?

I tried riding today a little more forward so that the back of my feet are closer towards the middle of the pedal rather than the middle of my foot being in the middle. It definitely improved the foot pain, but the pain eventually came, but it just took a lot longer. I don't believe it is possible to completely remove the pain from coming since I think it is normal for the foot to start burning when you are standing up for 3 miles (or more).

[h00ktern]

I get hot spots and numbness all the time. Just ride through it and it goes away. It isn't uncommon for me to burn a pack on one ride, without stepping off for a break - so those are 30+ mile rides. You'll learn to shift your weight on each foot, heal-toe it, or any other method that works for you. Just rough it out and it will become less of a problem.  

[fearedbliss]

On 12/26/2015 at 1:12 PM, Jason McNeil said:

@fearedbliss, I too am not a fan of the KS's pedals; however, have you tried

1. Changing the calibration angle of the pedals to a couple degrees back from the default 1-2° forward dip?
2. Use the medium ride setting (it takes some adjustment), but I find it makes the ride more comfortable. 

New design pedals are coming & can be fitted to the existing pedal mount. 

 

I tried calibrating it by doing the level calibration and making the wheel be more tilt back, but I haven't really noticed any difference.

I'm riding on play mode, I believe that it is the middle one. I tried the other modes before and didn't really feel that safe on them.

Those pedals seem nice. Are they bigger than the stock ones and if so by how much? Also is that a rubber interior? If you've tested them, is the grip good?

I tried riding today a little more forward so that the back of my feet are closer towards the middle of the pedal rather than the middle of my foot being in the middle. It definitely improved the foot pain, but the pain eventually came, but it just took a lot longer. I don't believe it is possible to completely remove the pain from coming since I think it is normal for the foot to start burning when you are standing up for 3 miles (or more).

Yea that doesn't work for me. I've been riding for 5 months now and have more than 700 miles travelled. The more I resist to rest, the worse it gets. Riding through it is something I wouldn't recommend.

[Cloud]

26 minutes ago, fearedbliss said:

 

Yea that doesn't work for me. I've been riding for 5 months now and have more than 700 miles travelled. The more I resist to rest, the worse it gets. Riding through it is something I wouldn't recommend.

Riding thru it is no good but there are some techniques that can temporarily alleviate the pain and help extend the riding time between stops. Ive always had foot pain while riding and came up with these few ways, which i am sure many others have also discovered. Presumably your foot position was the best one to begin with and just changing the foot position to a better one is not an option. Also presumably the pain is mostly in one foot at a time

1. Change the angle of the hurting foot on the pedal in relation to the direction of travel. I often start out with rotating my foot so its more outward, from 0 degrees to say 20-30 degress away from direction of traveling.

2 shift the weight on the hurting foot to the toes or to the heel. Since after riding 1500 plus miles i have no issue riding on one foot, i can as well riding on one foot plus on the heel or on the toes of the other foot, which is easier than just one foot. This will help the blood to recirculate and the foot will feel better.

3 totate the foot sideways around the axes being the direction of traveling. In general twist and rotate the foot any way you can afford to have the blood recirculate

4 simply place less weight on the hurting foor and more of the other foot and/ or on the shin of the hurting foot. Ride like this for a minute or even 30 seconds.

these can help extend the time between rest stops but eventually you will have to get off and rest.