Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Funky]

18 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Also remeber the 2 Eevees guys did a comparison between the s22 and the master and they were split.  One of them preferred the suspension and ride feel of the s22 and the other liked thebpower of the Master.  

And EX20S beats both.  (Only sad thing is. Complete garbage in water protection - no seals whatsoever.)

Everyone who got the S22 - I hope you like working on your wheel. That suspension will need repair pretty quick. (The rubber/plastic sliders.)

Kingsong even have added grease in there, so all sand/dirt sticks "better" - How smart.  (Pretty smart, as customer will need to repair it faster - more $$$ for them.) 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Funky

[UtahRider]

I’ve been so on the fence with this wheel but after watching Denise’s review, I think I’m back on the s22 bandwagon and glad I didn’t cancel my pre-order like I almost did 10 or 11 times. My main worry still tho is durability, BMS issues, etc. I guess I have a few weeks to ponder since I still haven’t heard a peep about my 15 August 2021 pre-order!

[wstuart]

41 minutes ago, UtahRider said:

I’ve been so on the fence with this wheel but after watching Denise’s review, I think I’m back on the s22 bandwagon and glad I didn’t cancel my pre-order like I almost did 10 or 11 times. My main worry still tho is durability, BMS issues, etc. I guess I have a few weeks to ponder since I still haven’t heard a peep about my 15 August 2021 pre-order!

My pre order was February........ maybe February 2023 I'll see mine. I don't mind it though.  I am happy to see a couple batches of these come out before I fully commit. 

[techyiam]

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Why wouldn't the S22 be a great wheel? Not sure where the current negativity comes from.

Well, torque for starters, or more accurately the lack of torque below 35 km/h. Additionally, it has a lower top speed. One would think many people looking to upgrade would be drawn to those specs first for a flagship wheel. Then there is the high stiction, high maintenance sliders. On top of that the width at the top of the wheel is very wide.

Moreover, there is Wrongway's dislike of the rear biased weight distribution, prompting him to interchange the two pedals on opposite sides and rotate the orientation from back to front. There were plenty of riders who also complained about the pedal height being too high, and the tire riding characteristics. Some of those riders who lowered the pedal height did it by reducing suspension travel. This wouldn't be ideal if you were a rider who bought the S22 because of the 135 mm travel.

Furthermore, many complained about the stock power pads.

And finally, last but not least came Madpack's scalding review on the S20/S22. 

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by techyiam

[MrP-MrF]

44 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Well, torque for starters, or more accurately the lack of torque below 35 km/h. Additionally, it has a lower top speed. 

Who really needs it honestly, it almost feels like a debate of big cocks at a red light over who starts the fastest.
Sincerely.

In a frontal impact with a belt, the probability of being killed is 2% at 50 km/h, 22% at 60 km/h and increases to 48% at 70 km/h.
I repeat. In a frontal impact with a belt. I let you imagine on a monowheel.

Knowing that a serial pack is more likely to cut (master), draw the conclusions...

[yoos]

3 minutes ago, MrP-MrF said:

Who really needs it honestly, it almost feels like a debate of big cocks at a red light over who starts the fastest.

High torque means better acceleration and braking at low speeds, which is very useful in a city commute setting (let alone technical offroad). It's not only about getting ahead of everyone once the light turns green (which is dangerous in itself if it's a crossing, lots of crashes happen this way) but many other scenarios as well: 1) quickly braking before a blind corner (narrow streets+buildings or going around a bus or truck) and then quickly regaining speed once you recover full sight. 2) Safely riding in traffic on steep inclines. 3) Handling sudden bumps and curbs better.

Regarding high speed I fully agree it's rather dangerous in traffic and should ideally be reserved for the race track or wide empty roads (which is more of an american thing). Still the more headroom the better, even for restrained riders.

22 minutes ago, MrP-MrF said:

Knowing that a serial pack is more likely to cut (master), draw the conclusions...

A single pack failing does not immediately mean a cutout, unless you were drawing very high current at the time of failure so that the other pack would also fail due to the high current blowing the fuse (if there is one). Also, a cut-out crash is definitely harsh but not equivalent to a frontal collision at the speed you were going. It's more akin to a motorcycle slideout, which can be safe even at very high speeds.

[MrP-MrF]

6 minutes ago, yoos said:

High torque means better acceleration and braking at low speeds, which is very useful in a city commute setting (let alone technical offroad). It's not only about getting ahead of everyone once the light turns green (which is dangerous in itself if it's a crossing, lots of crashes happen this way) but many other scenarios as well: 1) quickly braking before a blind corner (narrow streets+buildings or going around a bus or truck) and then quickly regaining speed once you recover full sight. 2) Safely riding in traffic on steep inclines. 3) Handling sudden bumps and curbs better.

Regarding high speed I fully agree it's rather dangerous in traffic and should ideally be reserved for the race track or wide empty roads (which is more of an american thing). Still the more headroom the better, even for restrained riders.

A single pack failing does not immediately mean a cutout, unless you were drawing very high current at the time of failure so that the other pack would also fail due to the high current blowing the fuse (if there is one). Also, a cut-out crash is definitely harsh but not equivalent to a frontal collision at the speed you were going. It's more akin to a motorcycle slideout, which can be safe even at very high speeds.

I respect your point of view but... remember that 4 years ago we still rode mainly with 16 inches and 1000 watt motors and that tomorrow we can have 10,000 watt motors, it won't change anything (apart from the weight).
Our vehicles are much more reactive with hollow engines than a year ago, when this reaction / recovery story is bullshit (sorry man) knowing that it's the time of perception viewing the information -> transmit to the brain + the time of brain reaction + body reaction time which makes it 2 seconds. The 200 ms of braking will not change anything.
Worse, the violent current variation more important on the master risks to generate a faster cut-off during a "hard" braking


Regarding the cut-off, it is simple electricity. The master will go very high in the amperages since they are series packs. On the other hand, at the time of a sudden drop in the amps, which is much greater, but we know very well for example that when you have 4 packs there are few cuts compared to a 2 pack (16S 840/420 per example or unless I'm mistaken, never heard of a cut on an XL)

[Forwardnbak]

People are chatting on Telegram about soft tuner possibly unlocking the s22 to 80kph.

No one has yet, seems to be a dealer password thing they think. Logging in as a guest is apparently an option they are trying.

Interested, and glad someone else is testing it first. 

[Robse]

21 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

People are chatting on Telegram about soft tuner possibly unlocking the s22 to 80kph.

No one has yet, seems to be a dealer password thing they think. Logging in as a guest is apparently an option they are trying.

Interested, and glad someone else is testing it first. 

Always the same story, who is the first at the red light hospital ....

[Forwardnbak]

19 minutes ago, Robse said:

Always the same story, who is the first at the red light hospital ....

The OTHER shredfest 

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, MrP-MrF said:

Who really needs it honestly, it almost feels like a debate of big cocks at a red light over who starts the fastest.
Sincerely.

1 hour ago, MrP-MrF said:

remember that 4 years ago we still rode mainly with 16 inches and 1000 watt motors and that tomorrow we can have 10,000 watt motors, it won't change anything (apart from the weight).

Your logic is plainly rubbish. You are implying that "no progress is still acceptable, and better torque is only to satisfy one's ego", are reasons good enough to justify spending thousand of dollars to upgrade to a new wheel. No, I have come from the motorcycle world, where I have ridden 125's, 300's, 400,'s 750's and open classers. I know when torque can become useful or fun for my own use cases.

If I were to upgrade and spend the thousands of dollars, I have to have solid reasons. Look at it from the "a glass is half full" perspective doesn't cut it for me.

Edited July 2, 2022 by techyiam

[techyiam]

47 minutes ago, Robse said:

Always the same story, who is the first at the red light hospital ....

But this has been on going for ages. You name it, they've done it, whether they are cars, motorcycles, bicycles, skateboards, wingsuits, or ... 

Edited July 2, 2022 by techyiam

[enaon]

54 minutes ago, MrP-MrF said:

The master will go very high in the amperages since they are series packs.

I think you have something mixed up. The master is a 4p system, just like the s22, and it draws less amps for the same power, since it is a higher voltage wheel. 

[PourUC]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Your logic is plainly rubbish. You are implying that "no progress is still acceptable, and better torque is only to satisfy one's ego", are reasons good enough to justify spending thousand of dollars to upgrade to a new wheel. No, I have come from the motorcycle world, where I have ridden 125's, 300's, 400,'s 750's and open classers. I know when torque can become useful or fun for my own use cases.

You seem to be overlooking everything against your position.

I have also come from the motorbike world and currently have 3 with tiered power. With motorbikes more power is nice as more often than not I am just going fast on the same route and also camping which I can do just fine on literally any bike. Taking my 1290GT off-road isn't recommended but I seem to manage perfectly fine.

With EUC's it's a bit different. Power is nice, and I am not saying more torque doesn't have benefits. But you are talking as if the S22 isn't an upgrade to previous wheels. I currently ride a Begode Nikola+ and a Kingsong S18. The power of the Nik+ is so nice but it sucks off-road. And the stuff I do with my S18 almost makes me bottom out the shock (dialed it in nicely).

The Master's suspension (not sliders) is simply worse. This isn't to say you can't take it off-roading. But there is clearly still use cases where the S22's additional power over the S18 will be nice. For me, as long as the S22 is torquer than the S18 then I will be happy. Which it will be. It's not a regression. It's progression from Kingsong. The way you talk is as if the ONLY wheel that is going to be bought from here on out is the Master until something else comes.

[enaon]

the s22 brings per cell battery voltage reporting, this alone is all the progress I for one want.

Edited July 3, 2022 by enaon

[Tawpie]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

rear biased weight distribution

I wonder why KS likes to bias the wheel’s balance to the rear. Both my S18 and 16x fall on their butts if left alone. Three models doing this can’t be an accident.

In the olden days before fly by wire, you always placed the airplane center of gravity forward of the wing box so the plane would pitch nose down if it lost power, allowing you to gain airspeed and hopefully recover. This actually costs the operator money—everything is heavier as a direct result but there was a solid reason for doing so.

Power loss in an EUC is decidedly different than an airplane, but KS could have built them to be balanced or to tip over forward… wouldn’t matter in a power loss scenario cuz you’re going to be up close and personal with the pavement anyway. Surely it’s not just because of a kickstand?

Edited July 3, 2022 by Tawpie

[UtahRider]

27 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I wonder why KS likes to bias the wheel’s balance to the rear. Both my S18 and 16x fall on their butts if left alone. Three models doing this can’t be an accident.

In the olden days before fly by wire, you always placed the airplane center of gravity forward of the wing box so the plane would pitch nose down if it lost power, allowing you to gain airspeed and hopefully recover. This actually costs the operator money—everything is heavier as a direct result but there was a solid reason for doing so.

Power loss in an EUC is decidedly different than an airplane, but KS could have built them to be balanced or to tip over forward… wouldn’t matter in a power loss scenario cuz you’re going to be up close and personal with the pavement anyway. Surely it’s not just because of a kickstand?

I’m going to hang a sandbag on the front bumper for ballast when I get mine. Problem solved.

[irmatt]

4 minutes ago, UtahRider said:

I’m going to hang a sandbag on the front bumper for ballast when I get mine. Problem solved.

Fabricate a metal front bumper that not only balances the wheel but is indestructible.

[.....]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

I wonder why KS likes to bias the wheel’s balance to the rear. Both my S18 and 16x fall on their butts if left alone. Three models doing this can’t be an accident.

In the olden days before fly by wire, you always placed the airplane center of gravity forward of the wing box so the plane would pitch nose down if it lost power, allowing you to gain airspeed and hopefully recover. This actually costs the operator money—everything is heavier as a direct result but there was a solid reason for doing so.

Power loss in an EUC is decidedly different than an airplane, but KS could have built them to be balanced or to tip over forward… wouldn’t matter in a power loss scenario cuz you’re going to be up close and personal with the pavement anyway. Surely it’s not just because of a kickstand?

Interesting....

I can't discerne a noticeable difference in balance on my 18xl. Im sure its not perfectly center but it seems so close that mine falls sideways most often. It falls front or back at random. I'm betting its just a simple coincidence. On kickstand models, I'd bet they are still relying more on angle for the stand than the balance. Even if front weighted, it becomes moot once you lean it back. Being close to center would sound like much less effort on the gyros and such, but even that may not be an issue. Hell, I dunno. I do know that Im still completely content with my wheels and have ZERO interest in replacing them with todays offerings.... for now.

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, UtahRider said:

hang a sandbag on the front bumper for ballast

I was kind of thinking it'd be a grand place to park a liter of the beverage of your choice. Kind of a temporary thing I guess.

[tk463]

I’m hoping switching to an air shock will lighten the rear enough to help the balance. We’ll see

10 hours ago, techyiam said:

And finally, last but not least came Madpack's scalding review on the S20/S22. 

Madpack is dead biased for inmotion. His video should be taken with a grain of salt (at this point maybe more of a whole bag)

[Freeforester]

Not all sweetness and light:

 

[yoos]

6 hours ago, Tawpie said:

I wonder why KS likes to bias the wheel’s balance to the rear.

One good reason is for autobraking on rider loss - this has been discussed somewhere already. To elaborate, if the rider falls off but the wheel keeps coasting it will apply braking torque since its own weight applies a braking command. People have previously achieved the same behavior by offsetting their pedal tilt angle backwards a few degrees. This can be considered a useful safety feature. But perhaps KS just favors easy braking over easy acceleration for safety reasons. In the case of the KS22 it could also lead to an auto-parking outcome in the right circumstances

[yoos]

11 hours ago, MrP-MrF said:

it's the time of perception viewing the information -> transmit to the brain + the time of brain reaction + body reaction time which makes it 2 seconds.

Two remarks:

1) I did not mean emergency braking when you suddenly notice danger. I meant the common cases of premeditated quick braking and acceleration: you are approaching a sharp corner with view obstructed by a building or you have to cross a crooked tram rail. Perhaps you do this every day on your commute. A torque wheel allows you to start braking quite late and once you turn/cross the rail or curb you very quickly regain to cruising speed. As a personal illustration, with the 18L I have gotten used to stronger braking and acceleration. When I occasionally use the 16S I immediately overpower it if I use the 18L muscle memory. I have to consciously change speed slower.

2) once your body is trained the brain reaction+body reaction becomes a reflex (you don't need to think "what do I do?"+"how do I do it", the routine is memorized and does not require conscious brain activity), reducing overall time.

11 hours ago, MrP-MrF said:

Regarding the cut-off, it is simple electricity. The master will go very high in the amperages since they are series packs.

As already mentioned by others it's a 4p which is "enough" by traditional standards. Moreover, there are high-discharge cells which change the game completely. They only now gain traction but they are capable to sustain 3-4 times larger current. So a 4p Samsung40T pack is as robust with respect to peak current as roughly a 12p LG M50T - better than a Sherman.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, yoos said:

One good reason is for autobraking on rider loss - this has been discussed somewhere already. To elaborate, if the rider falls off but the wheel keeps coasting it will apply braking torque since its own weight applies a braking command. People have previously achieved the same behavior by offsetting their pedal tilt angle backwards a few degrees. This can be considered a useful safety feature. But perhaps KS just favors easy braking over easy acceleration for safety reasons. In the case of the KS22 it could also lead to an auto-parking outcome in the right circumstances

On both my T3 and V12, if I deliberately set the wheel to tilt back a couple of degrees, they indeed do reverse on it own. However, when I was handling a demo S20/22 unit, I don't recall it doing that. I don't remember it move at all on its own. In fact, I didn't notice a rear weight bias at all while I was demoing the S20/22 and the Master back and forth..