Production of H-666 stopping? Alternatives?

[Nick McCutcheon]

In Ian's latest S18 update video, at 14:09 he mentions that KS found out that CYT has stopped production of the H-666 tire that is loved by many (including me). Does anyone have ideas for alternatives that would handle similarly/be comparable in off-road capability? The H-587 (S18 preproduction tire) seems like a medium between the H-5102 and the 666, but I haven't ridden on it and thus can't speak to its abilities. I'm sure you're sick of being paged so often @mrelwood but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this!

[mrelwood]

Don’t worry, I love to babble on about different shapes of rubber! 

I’ll scan through a few catalogues to see which ones would be available in our sizes.

[FlyboyEUC]

@Nick McCutcheon After 2 years of waiting and emailing ewheels to special order these tires, they have finally arrived! There are maybe 950 in stock at ewheels. You'll have to email them since they don't list parts anymore. Be sure to tell them that I sent you!.

I highly recommend anyone with a 18x3 wheel who is a city carver to get this tire. Mine has lasted 8000 miles with not a single flat or tire change. I also don't slime my wheels. I ride over glass pot holes, all types of terrain and the tire has never failed me.

[mrelwood]

Great news from @FlyboyEUC above!

 If anyone has somehow missed the tire everyone is now talking about, the Heidenau K66 (80/90-14 for the V11, or the notably smaller 80/80-14 for S18) is a sort of a spiritual successor to the beloved ChaoYang H-666. Naming included! I actually sold my last H-666 since I like the K66 so much better. It is a bit more off-road oriented, but works just as well on pavement. It definitely doesn’t behave or sound like a knobby.

 If you absolutely hate a tire that wants to stay slightly more upright than some of the regular EUC tires, the K66 might not be your favorite though, at least in the 80/90-14 size. I thought I didn’t like them all that much, but with the K66 I now do! Balancing at slow walking speed has never been this easy on a 18x3 EUC, and turning on a dime got an order of magnitude cheaper as well.

 Unfortunately it’s not a regular in the US MC shops, but I saw someone mention one or two shops that do stock this.

 The photo is of the K66 on an MSP. It was probably the smaller 80/80-14. (EDIT: Remembered wrong, it’s the 80/90-14!)

Edited April 19, 2022 by mrelwood

[Planemo]

Looks good! I've lost my way with tyres a bit, has anyone fitted the 80/90 to a Sherman?

I'm thinking about buying a replacement for the stock Sherman knobby, I have a City Pro (tubed) and Pilot (tubeless) as new in my shed, but would quite fancy something not as outwardly road orientated for when I decide to swop.

[FinRider]

My buddy is running the K66 on his S18. It is a TIGHT fit! But super happy!

[OldFartRides]

The 80/80 ?

[Tasku]

On 1/3/2022 at 6:01 PM, Planemo said:

Looks good! I've lost my way with tyres a bit, has anyone fitted the 80/90 to a Sherman?

I'm thinking about buying a replacement for the stock Sherman knobby, I have a City Pro (tubed) and Pilot (tubeless) as new in my shed, but would quite fancy something not as outwardly road orientated for when I decide to swop.

I think the picture on MSP was my wheel and it is fitted with 80/90 14 HEIDENAU K66 M+S SNOWTEX motorcycle tyre. It is lil tight fit but I did nothing to it (did not have to take sandpaper or anything). If the 80/80 -14 leaves more room that would be slightly better. So far things do not get stuck so, all good. My favourite pressure is around 28psi. The wheel feel extremely nimble if you hit it to something like 35ps. Like a surgical knife or something, turns like a dime. I prefer the little lower pressure and it just grips so well even on sandy/dirt roads. I also tried H-666 and it is good but K66 Heidenau: It is worth every penny. Best tyre I had so far. It has all the best of street tyre yet it has such a grip on ice and paths are soo good with it. 

Only place where it does not work so far is on the worst kind of icy surface. Totally even ice surfaces are not gonna work, friction tyres need something to grip to and smooth surfaces will not work in case of ice. Totally smooth ice is kinda rare tho, would have to be melt and frozen again to find some. Absolutely amazing on snowy conditions, feels like it is summer if there is good negative temperature and even snow cover on road. It holds on ice if there is something to grip onto, like little snow to make surface. So basicly I was able to ride it aslong as conditions did not near 0 or temperatures do not go on + and - degrees all the time. But unless you have to, why would you ride in slush and water? If you have to, then I would say get studs and fear the water damage on your wheel!

Now that i rode winter with the K66 I plan to ride the summer with it too. It seem pristine condition after winter.

Also I have been thinking of fitting this tyre for my sherman. If some already has, I would love to know.. But anyway, if not I gues I will let you know if it fits for sherman.

[0000]

9 hours ago, Tasku said:

I think the picture on MSP was my wheel and it is fitted with 80/90 14 HEIDENAU K66 M+S SNOWTEX motorcycle tyre. It is lil tight fit but I did nothing to it (did not have to take sandpaper or anything). If the 80/80 -14 leaves more room that would be slightly better. So far things do not get stuck so, all good. My favourite pressure is around 28psi. The wheel feel extremely nimble if you hit it to something like 35ps. Like a surgical knife or something, turns like a dime. I prefer the little lower pressure and it just grips so well even on sandy/dirt roads. I also tried H-666 and it is good but K66 Heidenau: It is worth every penny. Best tyre I had so far. It has all the best of street tyre yet it has such a grip on ice and paths are soo good with it. 

Only place where it does not work so far is on the worst kind of icy surface. Totally even ice surfaces are not gonna work, friction tyres need something to grip to and smooth surfaces will not work in case of ice. Totally smooth ice is kinda rare tho, would have to be melt and frozen again to find some. Absolutely amazing on snowy conditions, feels like it is summer if there is good negative temperature and even snow cover on road. It holds on ice if there is something to grip onto, like little snow to make surface. So basicly I was able to ride it aslong as conditions did not near 0 or temperatures do not go on + and - degrees all the time. But unless you have to, why would you ride in slush and water? If you have to, then I would say get studs and fear the water damage on your wheel!

Now that i rode winter with the K66 I plan to ride the summer with it too. It seem pristine condition after winter.

Also I have been thinking of fitting this tyre for my sherman. If some already has, I would love to know.. But anyway, if not I gues I will let you know if it fits for sherman.

I can second your sentiments with the K66 100%, it turned my wheel into an absolute weapon *^{_{After break-in, tire centering, and getting used to the new tire profile}}.

Reading one of mrelwood's posts/reviews a while back, I searched like every "K66" single post here before placing the order. And just to add to what you said, they even work well on moderately packed gravel. Gravel!

The only downside I can speak to is that you definitely notice the 2X weight over the stock 1488 tire which results in a little bit less acceleration and deceleration responsiveness. But this is also a perk: increased tire durability and puncture resistance.

Tasku isn't lying, this tire is it.

[Tasku]

3 hours ago, Vanturion said:

I searched like every "K66" single post here before placing the order. And just to add to what you said, they even work well on moderately packed gravel. Gravel!

Did you order 80/90 or the 80/80? 

Also they advertise this tyre being "reinforced". I can see it does not wear as fast, and one thing in Finland we have, is the danger of puncturing the tyres. They use quite a lot small gravel during winter and they puncture a lot of bicycle tyres. I have goop on my wheel (as slime tends to go bad after ~1year, and have to change the inner tyre too) and so far no worries of any kind of outer tyre puncture. I will knock wood on that but less tyre changes is kinda nice. After winter I do not even need to change the tyre away, that is one perk to friction tyre too (where with studs it would be kinda must). 

With H-666 I always remember that with turning there was this slight "drop" at certain angles, something you get used to but the profile of K66 is constant and it is just matter of tyre pressure to make your profile perfect.

Long gone are the days where in the curve you feel tyre slipping, that being street tyres on dirt, gravel and paths. This hybrid gives you best of street stability and good grip. On mud, I think the sherman offroad tyre would prolly be winner, there be that.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Tasku

[Funky]

So true K66 are amazing tire. Love my "new" ks18xl. xD

I don't know how good it would be on "icy" roads.. Or packed down hard snow? I think tire studs are needed for that. Will simple "snowtex" K66 do the job?

Edited April 20, 2022 by Funky

[0000]

6 hours ago, Tasku said:

Did you order 80/90 or the 80/80?

I went with the 80/90.

Mounting the tire was a bitch though, I needed an extra set of hands for the job.

6 hours ago, Tasku said:

On mud, I think the sherman offroad tyre would prolly be winner, there be that.

Not sure if the cooling method is the same with all EUCs, but I'm not a fan of extended rides in the mud as the mud can easily cake up on the motor controller's primary heat exchanger and heat soak it (assuming this cooling method is actually working and efficient).

In addition, the increased friction/drag, especially at low speed, puts extra stress on all the electrical components requiring higher amounts of current to sustain operating in muddy conditions, leading to increased amounts of heat that needs more cooling. The risk is that even if the controller doesn't blow in that session, the stress caused from the increased heat retention can dramatically shorten the lifespan of electrical components on the motor controller and eventually lead to a cut-out when the controller dies under load at some later point. Just a general heads up for anyone reading.

Just my opinion, but I don't think many EUCs (if not all) are well-suited to muddy conditions.

 

4 hours ago, Funky said:

I don't know how good it would be on "icy" roads.. Or packed down hard snow? I think tire studs are needed for that. Will simple "snowtex" K66 do the job?

I couldn't say. I agree with you though, if I was commuting often in snowy conditions, I would want studs for confidence. If you're replacing the stock tire too, that would make a good candidate for a DIY Tire Stud project for the winter season:

Of course you need to use smaller screws + nuts for wheel well clearance, but process is the same.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Vanturion

[Tasku]

4 hours ago, Funky said:

Or packed down hard snow? I think tire studs are needed for that. Will simple "snowtex" K66 do the job?

Packed snow is smooth ride on K66. I did plenty of that during winter. It has good grip on ice, but like I tried to explain: will not hold in perfectly smooth icy surface. For me the perfect winter days is enough.

5 minutes ago, Vanturion said:

Not sure if the cooling method is the same with all EUCs, but I'm not a fan of extended rides in the mud as the mud can easily cake up on the motor controller's primary heat exchanger and heat soak it.

I avoid mud all I can and also try to avoid water. 

------

I was asked how wide the 80/90 is: so the numbers are mm and it is 90mm wide tyre

[Funky]

26 minutes ago, Tasku said:

Packed snow is smooth ride on K66. I did plenty of that during winter. It has good grip on ice, but like I tried to explain: will not hold in perfectly smooth icy surface. For me the perfect winter days is enough.

------

I was asked how wide the 80/90 is: so the numbers are mm and it is 90mm wide tyre

Example: where people are walking.. Each foot print is like a small hole. Over night it's get's hard and icy, resulting in very icy bumpy ride. Did you try riding something like that on your K66? I would love to not have to change tire each winter/summer. That's why i'm asking.  

K66 is ~76mm wide.. "90" are so wrong.. That number is "height" that is percentage of said first number 80-90%=72mm height. 80/80 >> 80-80%=64mm. 

[Funky]

50 minutes ago, Vanturion said:

I couldn't say. I agree with you though, if I was commuting often in snowy conditions, I would want studs for confidence. If you're replacing the stock tire too, that would make a good candidate for a DIY Tire Stud project for the winter season:

Of course you need to use smaller screws + nuts for wheel well clearance, but process is the same.

I did something like that to my original 1488 tire. Drilled small pocket holes (not true tire) and inserted bike studs.

Worked very well. Link to studs >>> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003515679926.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.466352d454CsoH&algo_pvid=5f22afdb-2392-4610-ae11-823044620607&algo_exp_id=5f22afdb-2392-4610-ae11-823044620607-7&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id"%3A"12000026135770156"}&pdp_pi=-1%3B2.29%3B-1%3B-1%40salePrice%3BEUR%3Bsearch-mainSearch

Edited April 20, 2022 by Funky

[Tasku]

6 minutes ago, Funky said:

Example: where people are walking.. Each foot print is like a small hole. Over night it's get's hard and icy, resulting in very icy bumpy ride. Did you try riding something like that on your K66? I would love to not have to change tire each winter/summer. That's why i'm asking.  

Any tyre has change to slip on bumps. Footprints can be annoying but mostly cause they steer the wheel and sure slipping is possibility. Winter can be so different in other countries but like I tried to explain, this tyre is good for that heart winter where it is consistently on negative degree during the whole week. Little snow fills the holes of the walkers and where I like snow gets packed. As long as there is not too much loose snow, ride is perfect.

K66 holds well on ice, but not on smooth ice. As long as the ice has some snow or gravel/sand in it you will have perfect grip. In bicyble path almost everyone has studs so the ice is not smooth anymore, K66 holds in this case. Only the perfectly smooth ice is a no go. So I would not take the wheel to iceskating ring, but if the ice is not totally smooth, say little snowfall top of that ice + few hours, K66 will hold to it. With studs you can do that too without any doubt.

Studded tyres are perfect for someone who wants to ride everyday, where as good fresh powder runs are something you go for with the K66 friction tyre. I avoided water and slush, snow and ice is OK (only the perfectly smooth ice slowly slides the tyre). So, if you plan to ride entire winter in any condition, go for studs not the K66.

[Funky]

29 minutes ago, Tasku said:

Any tyre has change to slip on bumps. Footprints can be annoying but mostly cause they steer the wheel and sure slipping is possibility. Winter can be so different in other countries but like I tried to explain, this tyre is good for that heart winter where it is consistently on negative degree during the whole week. Little snow fills the holes of the walkers and where I like snow gets packed. As long as there is not too much loose snow, ride is perfect.

K66 holds well on ice, but not on smooth ice. As long as the ice has some snow or gravel/sand in it you will have perfect grip. In bicyble path almost everyone has studs so the ice is not smooth anymore, K66 holds in this case. Only the perfectly smooth ice is a no go. So I would not take the wheel to iceskating ring, but if the ice is not totally smooth, say little snowfall top of that ice + few hours, K66 will hold to it. With studs you can do that too without any doubt.

Studded tyres are perfect for someone who wants to ride everyday, where as good fresh powder runs are something you go for with the K66 friction tyre. I avoided water and slush, snow and ice is OK (only the perfectly smooth ice slowly slides the tyre). So, if you plan to ride entire winter in any condition, go for studs not the K66.

We get winter -20c So yeah i mean hard winters..  Where i ride to job it isn't smooth at all. People walk to train back and forth all the time. The snow gets so packed down, it becomes ice it self. Especially at those hotter days, when it melts little bit. And at night it freezes. That's why i mentioned "footprints" 10000+ solid 1cm deep icy footprints. It's riding like on gravel roads, where rock size is like bottle caps. Same time covered in ice.  

Next winter i will try riding with "normal" K66 tire little bit. Is there big difference "normal' vs "snowtex" version? (I get snowtex are specially made for winter, but rubber is rubber..)

Edited April 20, 2022 by Funky

[Tawpie]

3 minutes ago, Funky said:

I get snowtex are specially made for winter, but rubber is rubber

I don't know for exactly how, but the rubber compounding is a little different. In the colonies, automotive 'ice' tires are sold under Blizzak and X-Ice branding (there are several brands) and they actually do perform quite a bit better on smooth (and rough) ice than a normal winter tire. They're expensive but you don't need studded tires for most conditions. I'm lead to believe that they're a bit softer overall, but the edges are harder???

The footprints frozen into the path in winter, and hoofprints cast into the dried out mud in the summer are why I have moved my trail wheels to suspension. It's just so much less effort than the hard tail.

[mrelwood]

Rubber is rubber, but it is only one of the ingredients the tires are made of. Heidenau’s Snowtex tires, like all winter tires include ingredients that help it stay more pliable when it’s freezing and a regular tire would harden up.

 The Snowtex is perhaps the best winter tire without studs that there is, but believe me, studs still change the game completely. My Snowtex is actually my summer tire, and I switch to a DIY studded CST C-186 for the winter. The anxiety for slipping is simply gone, and I have zero problem riding through any kind of ice without worrying that I would lose the grip. It makes winter riding much more effortless and enjoyable to me.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Rubber is rubber, but it is only one of the ingredients the tires are made of. Heidenau’s Snowtex tires, like all winter tires include ingredients that help it stay more pliable when it’s freezing and a regular tire would harden up.

 The Snowtex is perhaps the best winter tire without studs that there is, but believe me, studs still change the game completely. My Snowtex is actually my summer tire, and I switch to a DIY studded CST C-186 for the winter. The anxiety for slipping is simply gone, and I have zero problem riding through any kind of ice without worrying that I would lose the grip. It makes winter riding much more effortless and enjoyable to me.

Would 5-10min trip "freeze" regular K66 tire? Or snowtex have some kind special compound in the tire it self, that prevents slips more vs regular non snowtex one.

Yeah, studs at winter - nothing can beat that.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Would 5-10min trip "freeze" regular K66 tire?

Rubber is an amorphous substance, meaning that it will get gradually harder as it cools down. So there’s no specific freezing point.

 The tire is in direct contact with the frozen surface, so it does cool down quickly. But how much that affects the grip would require data about the tire that we will never have.

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Or snowtex have some kind special compound in the tire it self, that prevents slips more vs regular non snowtex one.

In cold conditions, yes, due to keeping it softer.

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Yeah, studs at winter - nothing can beat that.

I only became a believer once I had my first try on a studded tire in a local meet. Ordered studs for me the same day.

[Skrew]

K66 best tire for sure, and i had a few thrust me.....