Cody Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) UPDATED Today, ! Hello it's now 4 month olds bought the 11 / 02 / 2020, I'll love it, it's better than my car ;3 Faster !, but not safer, i prefer to crash my car to annother car ;3 I was ridding and about 3 weeks ago, perfect weather, between 70% to 80% charge, i start my ride as usual. and on the middle range i notice the battery was low 4 green lights over 9 (I always end my work trip (25 km) with getting full battery and 25km more to get to the low level 3orange dots) i never saw my wheel with more than 2 greens leds off for my work-trip... and i decide to charge at work, witch was pretty fast only took 1h for full charge... strange strange... I do notice one side 'Outside right' of my wheel was a little more warm than the other, like 28°C ? and the other was at 20°c, not soo big difference, as hot as the motor run, "normal" [FULLCharging + stay plugged 4 hours ?] Then trip back home: 25km (total climbing 200m) and when riding, the wheel kick me off for low battery warning... (i could get home by pushing it during climbing) as an engineer I'm getting to open the wheel: wheel opened, 1 Overcharged dead pack 4.23v ?), and one "good"? pack with 50% battery remaining shown 3.82v... (it was full charged 2day before opening) I don't have that big time like kids to speak on, the vendor allow me to inspect my wheel... lets see what inside on next post ! as the battery pack is still under waranty, i can't unpack it to see what's wrong inside... but for sure there is at least something dead inside ... Edited June 8, 2020 by Cody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted June 5, 2020 Author Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) So this was an KS 14D pack with same issue of 4.35v / cell [16s pack, 67,2v charger, BUT ONE DEAD CELL to 0V] the seller decided to make pack with older pack toghers, (like One BMS for Two pack) Edited June 7, 2020 by Cody 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Cody said: Hello Welcome! I move you topic in the mod, repair & diy section - should better fit there. Quote I was ridding and about 3 weeks ago, perfect weather, between 70% to 80% charge, i start my ride as usual. and on the middle range i notice the battery was low 4 green lights over 8 ? Inbetween, while burdened charge % can go short to very low values - they are just computed from battery voltage. If the battery is allowed to settle for sime time this charge % computation is quite ok - while riding it's just some number. Quote i alway make like 30km with getting full battery and 30km more to get to the low level 3orange dots) You start out with about 70-80% - after 30 km the battery is full (going downhill?) and after another 30 km it gets low? Quote and i decide to charge at work, witch was pretty fast only took 1h for full charge... strange starange... Full charge means green led coming up? What was the charge %/battery voltage before charging? Which KS16 you have - the S or the X? You use the stock charger? With some 1.5-2.5A charging current? 33 minutes ago, Cody said: i found a friend witch had same strabnge issus, so that is the BMS ? if it's that he say they don't use the bms as a fasefy esquipement on 2 battery pack vehiculs ... many fires in perspective ... WTF ? he say some cells was over 4.5v ? If cells had over 4.5V they were either charged by regenerative braking (no cell overvoltage protection) or the BMS has a serious malfunction. (Edit: or the synchronisation wire between the bms was removed...) Even if they were overcharged by regenerative braking, they should be (slowly) discharged to 4.2V by the balancing resistors. And the whole pack already had to be seriously imbalanced before. If you like reading, some more details on bms and batteries Edited June 5, 2020 by Chriull 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Cody said: WTF ? he say some cells was over 4.5v ? Btw - the BMS with the connector for all cell voltages was afaik used since KS18XL, but they had a synchronization wire between all the BMS in the wheel. So there is a wire missing on the photo? Edit: Did he maybe accidently connected the charge input wrongly so cell overcharge protection was disabled? Edited June 5, 2020 by Chriull 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WI_Hedgehog Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 3 hours ago, Cody said: and i decide to charge at work, witch was pretty fast only took 1h for full charge... strange starange... You may wish to read this series of posts on balancing, which appears to relate to your situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted June 5, 2020 Author Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) This is old schematic of KS 14D, with an ILLEGAL battery adapter from an customer on the right you have the official kingson schematic for opened pack... copied from vendor schematics, i will add more comments soon ! The Two wires represents short created by the customer witch put two battery together without knowing the safety issues... wooosh soo many comments, so i upload this picture, with this represent my friend faulty battery, KS16S, On 6/5/2020 at 2:28 PM, Chriull said: You start out with about 70-80% - after 30 km the battery is full (going downhill?) and after another 30 km it gets low? [ - I never charge my wheel to 100% (i have a smart plug witch consist of standard 2amp charger with specials parameters: wait one hour after plug, then, charge it for two hours) if it's lower that 65%, charge it one more hour]... i always took my wheel to 70 to 80% from the purchase [and only for some weekends i go to 100%] [sometimes i arrive at work with 35% because of weekend rides], minimum was 3 orange dot on a long day ... the wheel never go to low battery for more than 5 hours EXEPT LASTS WEEKS ... witch i was kicked off after the middle of my work trip (wheel was fully charged) If i charge my EMPTY wheel at 18H at home (then I disconnected charger at at 1Am [ battery is at 100%] ) , on the morning, the wheel only have 70% (1 green led off alreaddy)... so i think it's try to balance somthing... wheel is slightly hot during charge, witch i didn't notice it before ... it doesn't smell anything for the moment i think i'm having same issue, my "empty "wheel stop charging after 3 hours ( i notice charger go green ) but !, when i ride it 30km it alreaddy get to low level (4/9) greens leds, i'm going downhill of 140m, witch is nothing, i alway was with full battery after this normal ride, or with one led off sometime Edited June 8, 2020 by Cody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 4 hours ago, Cody said: The Two wires represents Short circuits/ eletronic Burns or default, with BMS did burn... The right picture shows the battery packs configuration used by Kingsong before the S series (afaik) The connector with access to the single cell voltages i just know from KS18XL, which came later!? ... Which wheel we are talking about? KS16A/B/C, KS16S V1/2 or KS16X? The left schematics makes no sense (sorry). EUC always use paralleled cell groups in series. Not "two strands of cells in series paralleled". If your schematics is right you got some third party modified battery pack or KS used for some batches some very very strange BMS (which i could not really believe) The shortcut happend by some overburden or assembly issue? Or could it have been by diy modifications? Until now i have seen here reported scratched off balancing components from original assembly ("just" causing cell mismatch ) and to thin nickle strips connecting interbally two battery packs which melted under burden. 4 hours ago, Cody said: - I never charge my wheel to 100% (i have a smart plug witch consist of standard 2amp charger with specials parameters: wait one hour after plug, then, charge it for two hours) if it's lower that 65%, charge it one more hour]... i always took my wheel to 70 to 80% from the purchase [and only for some weekends i go to 100%] Not cgarging to 100% means that the cells are not balanced which will lead to serious problems 4 hours ago, Cody said: If i charge my EMPTY wheel at 18H at home (then I disconnected charger at at 1Am [ battery is at 100%] ) , on the morning, the wheel only have 70% (1 green led off alreaddy)... so i think it's try to balance somthing... wheel is slightly hot during charge, witch i didn't notice it before ... it doesn't smell anything for the moment Then check your charger if it delivers full no load voltage (67.2V, 84V). If this is the case (one of) your battery packs has dead cells. If so do not use this pack(s) anymore - they are dangerous! I assume you have two packs in your wheel? Chances are good that only one is with dead cells and has to be replaced/repaired. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted June 7, 2020 Author Share Posted June 7, 2020 buy date: 11 / 02 / 2020, i'm getting to open the wheel this afternoon at the retail store, (it's greats friends), i hope thats only wiring trouble, and not cell damages... I have had other problem, witch was solved quickly XD brand new wheel, but defective battery... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 18 minutes ago, Cody said: buy date: 11 / 02 / 2020, i'm getting to open the wheel this afternoon at the retail store, (it's greats friends), i hope thats only wiring trouble, and not cell damages... I have had other problem, witch was solved quickly XD brand new wheel, but defective battery... Great! Using the warranty with a new wheel is in any case the best solution! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted June 7, 2020 Author Share Posted June 7, 2020 I don't know what was my ks product, it seem to be an KS 16S "2" ? i don't own the blank model anymore, i own the normal Black model, 840Wh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post someguy152 Posted June 7, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2020 On 6/5/2020 at 8:24 PM, Chriull said: Not cgarging to 100% means that the cells are not balanced which will lead to serious problems sounds just like my story @Cody. i beleived too much in the marketing hype of charging to 80% and pretty sure it resulted in my unusable battery pack. i somehow led myself to believe that the battery would be balancing at 80% if i left it there for hours. Ewheel's website on their smart chargers never mention to every once in a while to charge the battery to 100% and leave it there for hours to let balance. And that lack of information made me feel reassured that i wouldn't have to charge it to 100%. Expensive lesson, honestly very sad this is not still mentioned on the website for the 5a fast charger at least. https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gen-v-5a67-2v-charger-king-song-electric-wheels/ 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 I think we should just attach a lightning rod to the wheel and leave it at the golf course. Once a month, just let it get balanced by lightning. I mean hell, it worked for McFly! Sorry to hear about the expensive lesson @someguy152. I guess I'll just continue to let mine charge up to 100% and then some, near each time. For long term storage, sounds like balancing the wheel and then riding it back down to 80% is a decent plan? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted June 7, 2020 Author Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) Okey, so same Sh*!f as the anonymously someone... the good point, the balance lead ? seem to work on the good, battery, i saw it output 5v when OK, if it put 0v, batterie is defective, and charger is stopped, but on my BMS battery still charge and charge and charge, midgh be reaching 4.4v, like previous friend ... Edited June 7, 2020 by Cody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted June 7, 2020 Author Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) on the dead batterie, the charger won't start to charge, but if i put the two batteries together, the charger charge the two batteries... -on the dead batterie i can't get anything to the small balance wire, it seem to be open circuit. ? strange stuff, the wheel output 113v, to the defective batterie, (charger only output 60v, low power, for testing) Will investigate the case later, time to eat & sleep, (i'm in France, and i'm gmt+2) Edited June 7, 2020 by Cody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 2 hours ago, someguy152 said: Ewheel's website on their smart chargers never mention to every once in a while to charge the battery to 100% and leave it there for hours to let balance. I believe this exact same reason has caused several dead packs across Ewheels customers, and possibly some from just reading about the Ewheels fast chargers as well. I have started discussions with Jason because of this very issue. I hope he has the time to familiarize himself with top balancing (if he yet isn’t) and sees the issue in a way that would hopefully result in at least a mention in the Ewheels quick charger descriptions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Cody said: on the dead batterie, the charger won't start to charge, but if i put the two batteries together, the charger charge the two batteries... Sounds bad. On the battery that won’t charge, the BMS stops the charge because some cell groups are getting into overvoltage. If the thin red wire between the batteries is not connecting, it would be still charging the healthy pack, which would then charge the failed pack through the output cables! This will overcharge the cells that are already over the safe voltage limit. Remember, there is not much headroom before the cells will vent violently, and possibly even causes a fire. Don’t charge the failed pack at all anymore, before measuring the individual cell group voltages. Quote strange stuff, the wheel output 113v, to the defective batterie, (charger only output 60v, low power, for testing) This sounds scary! Could you describe in more detail how you measured this? Be VERY careful going forward, you are literally playing with fire here! Edited June 7, 2020 by mrelwood 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted June 7, 2020 Author Share Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) alreaddy pass 3 full charge with the defective batterie inside, i notice the small hot of one side... Now the battery is at the store for exchange 67.2/15 => 4.48 v ? it look still safe, some cell in laptop or phone, are rated 4.45V and then cid open safzelly, i think the bms was always discharging the pack to 3.8V / 4.22V Edited June 7, 2020 by Cody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someguy152 Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 5 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said: For long term storage, sounds like balancing the wheel and then riding it back down to 80% is a decent plan? i remember seeing a tesla engineer explain how he kept 18650's at 50 or 60% out of the cold and heat and they basically had full capacity after many years of storage. im sure one of those details is wrong, but if ir emember where i saw the vid i'll post it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 5 hours ago, someguy152 said: i remember seeing a tesla engineer explain how he kept 18650's at 50 or 60% out of the cold and heat and they basically had full capacity after many years of storage. At batteruniversity.com afair i read exactly the same. Not to cold should mean no freezing. And afair colder is tendentially a bit better. 5 hours ago, someguy152 said: im sure one of those details is wrong, Imho not ;). Just looking from time to time after the cells - some could have a bit elevated self discharge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted June 8, 2020 Author Share Posted June 8, 2020 (edited) how did i test the pack : when the pack work, the blue wire is internally connected to black wire of the pack (BMS is good) on my dead pack BMS output NOTHING (like unconnected wire) i tested also with the two pack connected together, if i touch the sync wire with the blue wire, it stop charging the wheel If someone ask for the 113v showing on the dead battery, i think the wheel have an internal circuit to allow the mosfet to turn on the circuit, providing - 55v so i read 113v, but it's really small current for balancing cells & turn on charging mosfets... Edited June 8, 2020 by Cody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 so somes cells shorted together Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Posted June 14, 2020 Author Share Posted June 14, 2020 I plugged my old KS 14D, with the i could make this trip (ended up to home, speed limit to 15Km/h for the 5km end of path) i need to dismount for some high spiky climmbing, because i was a bit affraid of the slope ... but it did work perfectly (charged to 68V) for a big trip, but not really balanced cells one cell was a 4.28v, with is acceptable for thoose old cells... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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