New MSX - Stuck in hard mode!! (help?)

[Dark Star]

I just bought my new MSX and everything works perfectly.. except that it's stuck in hard mode. 

I've tried 5 different EUC apps including the official Gotway app for both iphone and android. My MSX beeps as if accepting the command (to switch modes), and the UI shows that I'm in medium or soft mode, but the ride isn't changing at all. I'm an experienced rider with many thousands of km on my ACM, I know what medium and soft modes feel like. It's definitely stuck in hard mode. I don't like hard mode because it hurts my feet and I feel more comfortable leaning into my acceleration in medium mode, so this is a real problem for me.

Has anyone ever heard of this? Any tips? 

The vendor I bought it from has contact Gotway about it, but they have been slow to respond so I'm trying here. 

thanks everyone!!

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, Dark Star said:

I just bought my new MSX and everything works perfectly.. except that it's stuck in hard mode. 

I've tried 5 different EUC apps including the official Gotway app for both iphone and android. My MSX beeps as if accepting the command (to switch modes), and the UI shows that I'm in medium or soft mode, but the ride isn't changing at all. I'm an experienced rider with many thousands of km on my ACM, I know what medium and soft modes feel like. It's definitely stuck in hard mode. I don't like hard mode because it hurts my feet and I feel more comfortable leaning into my acceleration in medium mode, so this is a real problem for me.

Has anyone ever heard of this? Any tips? 

The vendor I bought it from has contact Gotway about it, but they have been slow to respond so I'm trying here. 

thanks everyone!!

I have not heard of this.

You do know that the app does not show actual status, right? The Gotway firmware does not broadcast internal mode configuration over Bluetooth to the app. The apps are dumb in this regard. They just show what button you last pressed. If you had multiple Gotway wheels you would see that's how it works (try it with your ACM)

So since you didn't know this, humor me with my next question. Are you off the wheel (it's not moving at all) when you switch modes. Gotway does not switch modes (even though it'll beep and the app status will change - see first paragraph above) when the tire/wheel is in motion.

If you are switching modes properly yet it's not working, I would try re-calibrating the wheel and then try switching modes.

Beyond that, somehow you got a control board with bad firmware. The only resolution would be to get a new control board. If you bought it from a local dealer then they would support you. If you bought it from China direct, you're probably going to have to pay for a new board out of pocket.

[Arbolest]

Hey there! First, let me just say that I feel your pain. I had a similar experience when I first got my MSuper V3S+ a couple years ago and I was more than a little confused! It seemed like I was unable to set either the ride mode or the Tiltback speed using any of the Apps available at the time. Sometimes even initiating a recalibration didn't work! My solution to the problem was to perform that age-old ritual of spam-clicking the button, and it actually seems to be effetive! 

It may sound strange/silly/stupid, but as far as I can tell it is actually a common quirk that exists in all 3 Gotway wheels that I own. I have to rapidly send the command to change one of those settings several times over about 2 seconds before any of my wheels will accept the change and "save" it.    The most confusing part is that, like you said, the wheel beeps an acknowledgement each time I press the button, whether it does anything or not...   

Anyway, try that and keep the wheel absolutely still while doing so! If it still doesn't work, there might be deeper problems, like Marty said. 

[meepmeepmayer]

App discussion split off to stay on topic (on the topic: Marty's reply is literally perfect here and tells you all there is to know):

[Fuerte]

@Dark StarI am close to Sacramento, message me if you still need help. I have an MSX 100 Volt.

[Dark Star]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

@Marty Backe yes I’m completely stopped and it gives me an error if I try to switch ride modes while it’s moving anyway. I’ve tried many many times. I did consider calibrating but I didn’t think that would be related. I just tried that anyway, no luck. I didn’t know there is no state feedback from the wheel, that’s good to know.

@Arbolest hah ok I tried spamming too, no luck either. I used the official gotway app.
 

@Fuerte still stuck, do you think you have some idea how to fix it?

 

I purchased from ewheels, Jason contacted gotway for me but it’s been a long time with no response so I turned to the EUC community. I’m sure he will make it right one way or another. I figured I’d have to replace the control board since you can’t flash gotway firmware 

I knew MSX would feel less zippy than a 16” wheel but I know my MSX is capable of the acceleration I’m craving because when I grip with my knees and really pull on it, it accelerates quickly. I feel like I can’t lean enough in hard mode to get it moving. Maybe medium mode won’t be any better for fast acceleration, or maybe I’m just not used to hard mode. It’s not really the point anyway though. Even if I preferred hard mode, I would consider this unacceptable for a brand new $2k wheel. 

[Fuerte]

@Dark Star I am not sure I can do anything other than give you an opinion. My MSX is zippy, but I have never REALLY tried to lean into it to burn rubber. Everyone has a different opinion about how fast it should accelerate. I can easily zip up to 30 mph and it feels fast to me. I am going to be out of town this weekend, but message me your address and I can see when I could come down and bring my 100 volt wheel to compare.

[mrelwood]

@Dark Star, I hope you get someone familiar with the MSX to check out the issue locally. It might be key, because I actually had the same issue when I got my MSX. I soon learned however that the MSX riding modes were very different from what I had accustomed to. I still haven’t ridden the ACM, but as a much older wheel I’m sure the modes are a lot softer than on the MSX.

Since the MSX is new to you: The thing about the MSX riding modes is that unless you accelerate or brake a bit stronger and longer, they indeed do feel the same. There is zero spongyness to the soft mode, like there is on all other brand wheels and older Gotways. Try accelerating and braking on the soft mode a bit harder for more than 2 seconds. Then do the same on hard mode.

If someone secretly changed the mode on my MSX, it might still take a while for me to notice, and I don’t know if I’d still be able to tell which of the other two modes they chose.

 

Before the MSX I also had an issue with my new 16S, where I could feel the wheel falling forward when gaining speed. Scary as duck. I had to make several tests with a level measuring app before I could believe that my muscle memory was just all poisoned from my previous wheel, and that the 16S actually did keep itself perfectly level.

The bonding we do with our wheels is so deep, any new wheel will feel all wrong for a while. But eventually it’ll be the only thing that feels right!

On 3/3/2020 at 3:47 AM, Dark Star said:

I feel like I can’t lean enough in hard mode to get it moving.

That’s how the MSX does feel, in any mode. And that’s why so many owners have implemented powerpads, Kuji pads, or even longer pedal mods to help with the behaviour.

[Issah]

Barring any serious issue with the control board itself, the MSX is a hard ride on all modes. I ride it on "Soft" and it has very little give, but you can feel the wheel lean back and forwards when you accelerate and brake, but it's very minute compared to wheels like KS 18. I suggest you ride it on soft, and learn how to press down on one pedal with the balls of your toes on one side to really draw out more of the power, as opposed to only having to lean.

On medium and Hard, it's like riding on a wooden plank on concrete, no matter how you lean.

[Planemo]

I ride my msx in medium and tbh it didnt really feel any different to my previous wheel (Z10) in hard mode, and there was no surprises at all in terms of foward/back response. Makes me wonder just how squishy some other wheels must be!

[Dark Star]

@mrelwood it’s amazing to me that after all the videos I watched and my email to my vendor, that nobody mentioned this or knew anything about it. Well obviously you guys did once I asked! Thanks for the info, I don’t have any reason to believe my wheel is defective any more. Wish I had known before I purchased but maybe I’ll grow to prefer it.

@Issah I thought maybe it bent slightly in soft mode but I decided it was barely perceptible (at least at first) so it must be my imagination.. why would they make soft mode only 2% softer than hard mode? Ugh. Guess it wasn’t my imagination. Maybe riding in soft mode combined with an asymmetrical stance can help as you said. I’ve heard of people riding that way, I just never needed to on my ACM, where I don't have to lean as much as push both sets of toes down like dual gas pedals.

@Planemo my only other experience is ACM but the difference in ride modes is huge. hard mode is a plank, medium rocks a little, and soft mode is like riding a marshmallow. Z10 has adjustable hardness? Does it make a big difference?

Does anyone know if the nikola is the same? In other words, are medium and soft modes still very stiff?

[mrelwood]

Good to hear that your wheel isn’t defective! Sorry that the beginning is a bit rough though. But I’m confident that once you learn to work with the quirks of the wheel, you’ll begin to like it much more.

5 hours ago, Dark Star said:

Does anyone know if the nikola is the same? In other words, are medium and soft modes still very stiff?

Basically yes, but the smaller tire diameter makes the wheel more responsive.

Give some time to the soft mode on the MSX though. It took me a while, but once I learned it’s rhythm, I was able take advantage of it’s behaviour to help me accelerate and brake with less effort.

The rhythm is actually a bit like an old style automatic transmission on a car; You push the pedal (= lean forward), and while you keep the pedal pushed, the transmission switches to a suitable gear and provides power. It just takes a few seconds of constant leaning to do so.

Same with braking. The braking power gets increased with zero effort if you just keep a steady backwards lean for a few seconds.

[Marty Backe]

7 hours ago, Dark Star said:

@mrelwood it’s amazing to me that after all the videos I watched and my email to my vendor, that nobody mentioned this or knew anything about it. Well obviously you guys did once I asked! Thanks for the info, I don’t have any reason to believe my wheel is defective any more. Wish I had known before I purchased but maybe I’ll grow to prefer it.

@Issah I thought maybe it bent slightly in soft mode but I decided it was barely perceptible (at least at first) so it must be my imagination.. why would they make soft mode only 2% softer than hard mode? Ugh. Guess it wasn’t my imagination. Maybe riding in soft mode combined with an asymmetrical stance can help as you said. I’ve heard of people riding that way, I just never needed to on my ACM, where I don't have to lean as much as push both sets of toes down like dual gas pedals.

@Planemo my only other experience is ACM but the difference in ride modes is huge. hard mode is a plank, medium rocks a little, and soft mode is like riding a marshmallow. Z10 has adjustable hardness? Does it make a big difference?

Does anyone know if the nikola is the same? In other words, are medium and soft modes still very stiff?

I just rode my Nikola and MSX to compare the hard vs soft modes on both wheels. To me they feel essentially identical. Soft mode is certainly soft, but yeah, not as squishy soft as the ACM. Very noticeable difference though between hard & soft modes. No way would I think I was in hard mode when I switched to soft.

[Dark Star]

@mrelwood yesh I figured the transmission is totally different. Feels like going from a 250cc 2 stroke dirt bike to a 500cc 4 stroke. I still think if I had a proper medium mode, I could get more power out of it quicker. The reason I say that is because when I grip my MSX with my knees and yank on it, it accelerates much quicker. It’s not just about acceleration though, I have other issues with hard mode.

@Marty Backe well crap now I’m back to square 1! Thanks so much for checking both wheels,  my suspicion now is that there’s a whole batch of MSX with bad firmware, or maybe it was intentional, but nobody from gotway communicated this change, and nobody noticed because everyone seems to prefer hard mode except me. Anyway if you say there’s no way you could mistake hard mode for soft mode on both MSX and nikola.. that’s all I need to hear. Mine is easily mistakable. I’m still not sure soft mode is any different.

sigh.. back to my vendor I guess. Apparently gotway has been shut down for like 2 months already, so this may take a while to resolve. 

[Marty Backe]

7 hours ago, Dark Star said:

@mrelwood yesh I figured the transmission is totally different. Feels like going from a 250cc 2 stroke dirt bike to a 500cc 4 stroke. I still think if I had a proper medium mode, I could get more power out of it quicker. The reason I say that is because when I grip my MSX with my knees and yank on it, it accelerates much quicker. It’s not just about acceleration though, I have other issues with hard mode.

@Marty Backe well crap now I’m back to square 1! Thanks so much for checking both wheels,  my suspicion now is that there’s a whole batch of MSX with bad firmware, or maybe it was intentional, but nobody from gotway communicated this change, and nobody noticed because everyone seems to prefer hard mode except me. Anyway if you say there’s no way you could mistake hard mode for soft mode on both MSX and nikola.. that’s all I need to hear. Mine is easily mistakable. I’m still not sure soft mode is any different.

sigh.. back to my vendor I guess. Apparently gotway has been shut down for like 2 months already, so this may take a while to resolve. 

There are multiple MSPs in the wild (I rode one for awhile). Mine had some half-baked firmware. But others I know didn't. So it absolutely does not surprise me that Gotway has shipped MSX's with different firmware. Mind you, my MSX is 1-1/2 years old. Maybe they've changed the formula and your MSX is the way that Gotway intended it.

I wish Gotway had the concept of Version Control and let users know which version of the firmware each wheel was shipped with, and what changes were made to the firmware. I literally don't expect to ever see that in my lifetime. The Chinese have a different mentality than the western world.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Marty Backe

[Dark Star]

@Marty Backe hah. I’m imagining that the mechanical and electrical engineers are the main contributors, and the software team is relatively small. Just speculating. Definitely not the result of a savvy top down vision for software though. Versions and release notes don’t seem like much to ask for on a product that affects physical safety.

I wouldn’t even be comfortable with shipping non-flashable boards on my product in the first place. Any defect that gets out would be very expensive to fix, you’d have to send new boards to every customer. How much more could flashable ROMs cost? Even if it’s another $1 per board, seems worth it for the insurance, let alone the value to the customer. Maybe there are factors I’m not considering but KS managed it.

 

[mrelwood]

12 minutes ago, Dark Star said:

KS managed it.

Well, kind of. Updating a KingSong wheel has often required a series of retries and good luck for the update server to be available at the time. There are also multiple topics on an update attempt bricking the wheel. All this still after several years of offering the service. Luckily the EUC World app has made the update much more resilient, but it really shouldn’t require a 3rd party community app that hosts the update files on it’s own server.

But the reason why Gotway doesn’t offer updating has rumoured to be to protect the precious and one of a kind firmware from being hacked and copied by other manufacturers. I can see the fear as a plausible reason, after all there are multiple threads also on describing and discussing ”The Gotway Glide”.

But even a KingSong with a Gotway behaviour would still represent KingSong’s safety ideology, which I think is the reason for quite a few riders to go Gotway instead.

I definitely think that Gotway should up their game and implement proper firmware versioning and updating. I get that they are a small company, but they are sold in relatively good numbers, which should give them the possibility to advance.

[Dark Star]

@mrelwood I didn’t know all that!  At least the KS boards are capable of being flashed, lol.

 

Update: gotway seemed to indicate that if the behavior I described is true, they may send me a new board. I made a video to prove to them that it’s not user error and it’s not my imagination, waiting for a response.

I wonder if they understand how many units are like mine, what precedent they would set by conceding a defect.
Maybe it doesn’t matter though, I still seem to be the only one who cares enough to fight for medium mode!

[Dark Star]

Update: still no response from gotway, I’m not expecting any resolution here.

I ordered a v11 and will be selling my msx once my v11 arrives.

Being stuck in hard mode is still a deal breaker for me. I have learned to work around it for now. 
I replaced the stock pads with C shaped styrofoam cut outs that let me yank on the body without falling forward.

Msx is an awesome wheel and someone who doesn’t mind being stuck in hard mode will get a good deal on mine in about 6 weeks.

[Marc Roberts]

On 2/29/2020 at 3:17 AM, Marty Backe said:

I have not heard of this.

You do know that the app does not show actual status, right? The Gotway firmware does not broadcast internal mode configuration over Bluetooth to the app. The apps are dumb in this regard. They just show what button you last pressed. If you had multiple Gotway wheels you would see that's how it works (try it with your ACM)

So since you didn't know this, humor me with my next question. Are you off the wheel (it's not moving at all) when you switch modes. Gotway does not switch modes (even though it'll beep and the app status will change - see first paragraph above) when the tire/wheel is in motion.

If you are switching modes properly yet it's not working, I would try re-calibrating the wheel and then try switching modes.

Beyond that, somehow you got a control board with bad firmware. The only resolution would be to get a new control board. If you bought it from a local dealer then they would support you. If you bought it from China direct, you're probably going to have to pay for a new board out of pocket.

Hey! I know this is for a different model but just wanted to check. This doesn’t seem true with my MSP, if I set Soft mode in the old Gotway app, then switch to the new one it knows. So the MSP at least broadcasts the mode. I guess this changed at some point. 

[Marty Backe]

13 hours ago, Marc Roberts said:

Hey! I know this is for a different model but just wanted to check. This doesn’t seem true with my MSP, if I set Soft mode in the old Gotway app, then switch to the new one it knows. So the MSP at least broadcasts the mode. I guess this changed at some point. 

Yes, I've been corrected that more recent Gotway wheels are now broadcasting this status. Thanks for the confirmation.