King Song 16X - mods thread

[Uras]

I've also added a couple of holes for warm / hot air to escape (hopefully). They're on a vertical surface so should be reasonably well protected from rain etc. The theory is as the warm air escapes outside air will be drawn in from eleswhere - these things aren't air tight. I'm guessing it's the mainboard that gets hot? These holes are either end of the mainboard.

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Uras

[Tawpie]

That's gonna be one tough wheel! They're very robust already and you've added considerably to its bounciness.

The 16X cools via a heatsink that's exposed inside the wheel well, they've never had issues with heat. I'd recommend sealing those holes back up, they will allow water into the control board area, and that's absolutely undesired.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Tawpie

[Funky]

On 12/19/2022 at 3:34 AM, Uras said:

I can feel if the wheel is too low. For example, I started learning on a ks14d @ 40psi - it felt too squirmy on concrete so I increased it to 42psi. It's perfect at 42. Because the valve stem is a pia to work with I haven't been checking pressure for over a month. I thought I'll know if it gets too low. I did check it yesterday and it was still good.

It feels "squirmy" because psi is SO HIGH.. Think about it > High psi tire is very hard - yes? Hard tire - only middle of tire center is contacting the ground - yes? It feels like you are riding on knife edge...

And at small 14" that effect would be much, much bigger. I'm 280lbs and i had the same feeling when i rode my ks18xl over 30 psi. My sweet spot was 28psi while "learning". Anything over 30psi i would get speed wobbles often and overall it felt like wheel had its own mind.  It wanted to go left/right without my input.

[Funky]

12 minutes ago, Uras said:

I've also added a couple of holes for warm / hot air to escape (hopefully). They're on a vertical surface so should be reasonably well protected from rain etc. The theory is as the warm air escapes outside air will be drawn in from eleswhere - these things aren't air tight. I'm guessing it's the mainboard that gets hot? These holes are either end of the mainboard.

 

I would say you shot yourself in foot making that hole.. Any rain that hits top part may flow down and may get into that hole. (You see that plastic bend under hole going - under the handle. It would drip right on the motherboard!) Please i beg you to close it.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Funky

[Uras]

7 hours ago, Funky said:

It feels "squirmy" because psi is SO HIGH.. Think about it > High psi tire is very hard - yes? Hard tire - only middle of tire center is contacting the ground - yes? It feels like you are riding on knife edge...

And at small 14" that effect would be much, much bigger. I'm 280lbs and i had the same feeling when i rode my ks18xl over 30 psi. My sweet spot was 28psi while "learning". Anything over 30psi i would get speed wobbles often and overall it felt like wheel had its own mind.  It wanted to go left/right without my input.

I think I had the pressure right. I could see where the tire is riding  via the tread - that solid center ridge and then the blocky tread beside the center. Only the edge knobs were untouched. The 14d is only a 2.125" tire, so it will need more psi than a 3" tire. On the 16x (3" tire) I've found 28psi is working for me in a similar fashion - I can feel it taking out some of the impact of bumps etc. 

[Crab]

I’m not sure if this is the best place to post this, but I fabricated this seat extender up yesterday to give me some more height when sitting. I hated the fact that the stock seat, although comfortable, was extremely slippery. Therefore, my extension is made out of foam covered with hydroturf.

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Crab

[Uras]

23 hours ago, Funky said:

I would say you shot yourself in foot making that hole.. Any rain that hits top part may flow down and may get into that hole. (You see that plastic bend under hole going - under the handle. It would drip right on the motherboard!) Please i beg you to close it.

I can't imagine how rain will get in there - it's on a vertical surface. If the wheel fell in the river (that's possible here), then water would get in. If water did somehow get in, via water pistol for example, the holes are past the ends of the motherboard. Also, the board is under the convex top of the wheel, so water would never travel up to then drip down onto the board.

It's 24C outside today - the wheel travelled up the last hill under its own power (approx 25 degrees) without me on it for about 5mins. After that the temp was showing 42C via the euc app - that seems pretty high still. My partner's 14d was showing 32C.

Thank you for your concern though

[Paul A]

32 minutes ago, Uras said:

I can't imagine how rain will get in there

 

Water ingress might be possible via the hole.

Liquid water may not travel upwards.

With heat, liquid water becomes vapour, can travel anywhere.

Upon cooling, water vapour condenses back into liquid.

Do not want water on electricals.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Uras said:

I can't imagine how rain will get in there - it's on a vertical surface. If the wheel fell in the river (that's possible here), then water would get in. If water did somehow get in, via water pistol for example, the holes are past the ends of the motherboard. Also, the board is under the convex top of the wheel, so water would never travel up to then drip down onto the board.

It's 24C outside today - the wheel travelled up the last hill under its own power (approx 25 degrees) without me on it for about 5mins. After that the temp was showing 42C via the euc app - that seems pretty high still. My partner's 14d was showing 32C.

Thank you for your concern though

You do understand that water "flows" and follow a path with less resistance. It would simply go under "handle" plastic part - right on top of motherboard. Maybe it will continue to flow and go down side pads plastic. But if drip is right that moment on top of mobo, driving in small pothole or any bump in road would make it drip..

I get what you mean hole is "sideways" hUr dUr how water can get in there.. It can.. Water can even get true power bottom, any small crack in shell so on.. That's why most people who ride in rain use backpack cover over euc. (So no water at all get's on the euc.)

42C is normal temp.. Alarm is at what temp 70C/80C don't really remember. Till 60C you don't need to worry at all. Fan only kicks in at around 50C if i'm not wrong. <<< That alone shows you don't need to worry about anything.

And that small hole will do jack shit for "cooling". All heat comes from heatsink. And by the time the "heated" air goes to the hole, it will be already about the same temp that is outside of euc. ~5C difference at MAX. It simply will not do anything. (Sorry if i'm sounding like jackass, so on. I'm just telling the hard cold truth.)

Just don't come crying when you fry your motherboard. Anyways.. Keep on riding. 

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Funky

[Uras]

On 12/26/2022 at 11:38 AM, Uras said:

I've also added a couple of holes for warm / hot air to escape (hopefully). They're on a vertical surface so should be reasonably well protected from rain etc. The theory is as the warm air escapes outside air will be drawn in from eleswhere - these things aren't air tight. I'm guessing it's the mainboard that gets hot? These holes are either end of the mainboard.

 

Update: I seem to be getting 1 to 2C cooler with these two tiny holes. Now it shows 42 - 44C, before was 45 - 46C. That's with increased outside temps (previously around 18C, now in the low to high 20's) and me riding slightly faster now, because I'm improving. I always check it as soon as I get home. I'm happy with that. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Uras

[Funky]

46 minutes ago, Uras said:

Update: I seem to be getting 1 to 2C cooler with these two tiny holes. Now it shows 42 - 44C, before was 45 - 46C. That's with increased outside temps (previously around 18C, now in the low to high 20's) and me riding slightly faster now, because I'm improving. I always check it as soon as I get home. I'm happy with that. 

So 3-5C difference? Let's say 6C cooler, because you ride "faster". Not big improvement in my mind. It's cool running wheel already. And till 50C when fans start running and 80C alarm you have plenty of headroom. (Don't forget as soon as fan kicks in at 50C, it will automatically get cooler.)

 

It would be the same with Computer. Open case vs Closed case. One makes more noise and runs cooler. Other one runs little bit hotter, but is 2 times quieter. (Owner only can choose which setup is better for them.)

I would remove the case in my setup. (Or at least have mesh covered case with 4x walls made out of mesh.) You would not need fans and still be running cooler system. The quietness of closed case, with cooling of open case with many fans. At the end of day 5C difference makes almost zero impact in system that is rated 95C, but in real life use case never passes 65C.

 

I in summer often get mobo 55C+ motor 60C+ while riding on smooth ground. (Don't have hills here.. Never hit over 70C) My wheel is "hotter" running. (Same test that guy did in video also with my 18xl - he got 80C alarm.) Never really gave it a thought, because it can run till 80C. If it gets to hot - it would simply make alarm and make me stop.  (Never had that happen.)

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Funky

[mrelwood]

On 12/26/2022 at 2:44 AM, Funky said:

It feels "squirmy" because psi is SO HIGH..

42psi is actually at the low side of medium for a 14x2.125" tire. Smaller tires require much higher pressures.

 

On 12/27/2022 at 2:30 AM, Uras said:

I can't imagine how rain will get in there

Others seem to be able to… Water gets everywhere. Try taping a piece of tissue paper over the hole and go ride in the rain. Check if it gets wet. If it does, the water will get in from the hole and can drip on the mainboard. The wheel shakes a lot as you ride, so water definitely would creep up vertical walls. There are very good reasons why none of the manufacturers (or riders for that matter, other than you) have made similar holes above the mainboard. Quite the opposite, people are sealing up the 16X with silicone the best they can, since it’s already a bit too open for water ingress.

Like @Funky said, you have absolutely zero reasons to worry about overheating the wheel. It’s known to be a cool running wheel, and you are very far from even any cooling thresholds. You can’t compare temperatures between different wheel models, as the probes are installed in different places and their operating temperature ranges are different.

You are risking your own health for no reason at all.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

42psi is actually at the low side of medium for a 14x2.125" tire. Smaller tires require much higher pressures.

 

Others seem to be able to… Water gets everywhere. Try taping a piece of tissue paper over the hole and go ride in the rain. Check if it gets wet. If it does, the water will get in from the hole and can drip on the mainboard. The wheel shakes a lot as you ride, so water definitely would creep up vertical walls. There are very good reasons why none of the manufacturers (or riders for that matter, other than you) have made similar holes above the mainboard. Quite the opposite, people are sealing up the 16X with silicone the best they can, since it’s already a bit too open for water ingress.

Like @Funky said, you have absolutely zero reasons to worry about overheating the wheel. It’s known to be a cool running wheel, and you are very far from even any cooling thresholds. You can’t compare temperatures between different wheel models, as the probes are installed in different places and their operating temperature ranges are different.

You are risking your own health for no reason at all.

The beautiful thing is - everyone can choose what they wanna do.  No point telling if it's wrong/right, he has his own mind and he likes them holes. 

If i ever would get temp problems - i would install "extra" fan inside, or maybe make some holes in case. (Same time i would add micro mesh fabric on the holes, so no water can get past them, but air still can. - You know that fabric that doesn't let water true.. Big cutouts in plastic, with that fabric over them.)

Edited December 31, 2022 by Funky

[Uras]

On 12/31/2022 at 12:12 PM, Funky said:

It would be the same with Computer. Open case vs Closed case

I would expect the closed case to run cooler - they used too. Decades ago I put together computers and put some thought into air flow within the case. For example, consider where the exhaust fans go (preferably near the highest point) then where the hot spots are (graphics card, cpu, hd etc). By placing intake holes so that the air moves across these surfaces (air goes between intake holes and exhaust fan). Smaller holes closer to the fan, larger holes further from the fan etc etc. My computers ran much cooler than brand names with same specs. Without a case you can't direct the air movement over those surfaces, or a lot less. I think car design (engine bay) is also based on this. Just letting hot air out from the high point alone creates a flow and to some point a venturi effect with no moving parts.

[Funky]

4 hours ago, Uras said:

I would expect the closed case to run cooler - they used too. Decades ago I put together computers and put some thought into air flow within the case. For example, consider where the exhaust fans go (preferably near the highest point) then where the hot spots are (graphics card, cpu, hd etc). By placing intake holes so that the air moves across these surfaces (air goes between intake holes and exhaust fan). Smaller holes closer to the fan, larger holes further from the fan etc etc. My computers ran much cooler than brand names with same specs. Without a case you can't direct the air movement over those surfaces, or a lot less. I think car design (engine bay) is also based on this. Just letting hot air out from the high point alone creates a flow and to some point a venturi effect with no moving parts.

Off-topic: Yeah in reality i also would think that way. But for some reason open case is cooler. (I get what you mean everything else closed, only the "fan" spots are open.)

Yeah motherboard and ram - the not so worrying parts will be running little bit hotter - because not having that airflow pathway. But those parts are running already cool. Nowadays CPU/GPU are the "hot" running things, that need the most cooling. And because they have their owns cooling/fans on them, not having case at all makes them run cooler. That's why nowadays most cases have all front/back open. And some cases have even mesh panels all around.

Anyways lets not JackHog the 16X topic.  

[Uras]

16 hours ago, Funky said:

Anyways lets not JackHog the 16X topic

it's all the same theory, albeit with no fans involved. The warm air exiting is what causes the air flow (as it exits it draws cooler outside air in). I have not controlled where the air intake is, just the exits. When it comes time to replace the tyre I will have a look at sealing up the wheel for water / air ingress, if it is possible to control air ingress with regards to hot spots. I'm reluctant to pull the wheel apart before I need too - I imagine there's a fair bit of sand, dust and dirt accumulated in places now 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Uras

[Funky]

2 hours ago, Uras said:

When it comes time to replace the tyre I will have a look at sealing up the wheel for water / air ingress, if it is possible to control air ingress with regards to hot spots. I'm reluctant to pull the wheel apart before I need too - I imagine there's a fair bit of sand, dust and dirt accumulated in places now 

Funny thing - i had to go inside my wheel the very first day i got it. Fan was rubbing against those mosfets.. (Doh when the seller turned it on in store - it wasn't rubbing..) I needed to cut the silicone and re-silicone them. They were pressing way to hard onto fan.

Didn't want to drive back to store to exchange the wheel. (I bought it in walk in store.)

400km later i was inside the motor "waterproofing" it and exchanging bearings the same time. The original bearings where running on dry side. + wanted to use real marine grease. Same time i changed tire. (If you gonna do it - do it all at once.)  From that one beach ride i had sand around that place where bearing goes in the motor covers.. Before i placed the new bearings in motor cover, i greased that "groove" very well - so no sand/water can get past the bearings.

[Uras]

4 minutes ago, Funky said:

Funny thing - i had to go inside my wheel the very first day i got it. Fan was rubbing against those mosfets.. (Doh when the seller turned it on in store - it wasn't rubbing..) I needed to cut the silicone and re-silicone them. They were pressing way to hard onto fan.

Didn't want to drive back to store to exchange the wheel. (I bought it in walk in store.)

400km later i was inside the motor "waterproofing" it and exchanging bearings the same time. The original bearings where running on dry side. + wanted to use real marine grease. Same time i changed tire. (If you gonna do it - do it all at once.)  From that one beach ride i had sand around that place where bearing goes in the motor covers.. Before i placed the new bearings in motor cover, i greased that "groove" very well - so no sand/water can get past the bearings.

geez, that's a fair bit of work - well done for you to get on top of it. I'm reluctant because I'm lazy and I've padded the thing up - that took a bit of designing and time. Also what usually happens is that I pull something apart and don't finish in time for a ride, so I miss out for a day or a week (mtb experience). I do have one noise that I'd like to know what it is - I can't replicate it by lying wheel down and spinning wheel while still on. 

[Uras]

On 9/23/2019 at 7:06 AM, Gaz Bon said:

I ride at 21/22 psi as 90 % off road

I thought I'd put my pressure here just to give others some ballpark figures. I've been running 24psi which I'm happy with at this point - previously I was at 28psi. I ride a mix of shitty sealed footpaths / bike paths and off road rocky single track. I'm 80kg max with all gear etc. but I'm not jumping anything.

I'd also like to list a couple of my findings because this seems like a good place to put them:

I usually do a 10km circuit which suits my dog. This uses around 10% a ride until I get to 40%. If I start a ride with 40% battery I finish with around 10% left. So 40% seems like a good point to recharge.

The mob I bought this wheel from, e riderz, did a realistic range test. 73km if anyone is interested. 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Uras

[Funky]

8 hours ago, Uras said:

I thought I'd put my pressure here just to give others some ballpark figures. I've been running 24psi which I'm happy with at this point - previously I was at 28psi. I ride a mix of shitty sealed footpaths / bike paths and off road rocky single track. I'm 80kg max with all gear etc. but I'm not jumping anything.

I'd also like to list a couple of my findings because this seems like a good place to put them:

I usually do a 10km circuit which suits my dog. This uses around 10% a ride until I get to 40%. If I start a ride with 40% battery I finish with around 10% left. So 40% seems like a good point to recharge.

The mob I bought this wheel from, e riderz, did a realistic range test. 73km if anyone is interested. 

 

I personally recharge my wheel around 45-50% also. Because you lose % much faster under 50%. (Also found out that you can do 25km range for 25%.)  But under 50% the same 25km range will eat all 50% battery almost.

From 100% to 50% it's 1km = 1%

From 50% to 0% it's more like 1km = 2%.

 

About PSI. If you don't jump at all 25psi is fine. I'm 125kg and ride around 28-30Psi. But same time i don't jump any curbs, or anything. Because i know i may damage the rim. - Just wanted to remind that, you may damage the rim by running so low PSI.  

Edited January 31, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

On 1/31/2023 at 11:52 AM, Funky said:

If you don't jump at all 25psi is fine.

Note that the pressure requirements are different for 80/80-14 and 16x3” tires. 25 psi on a 16x3” is quite low even for a 80kg rider. You best avoid surprise potholes… 

[Funky]

57 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Note that the pressure requirements are different for 80/80-14 and 16x3” tires. 25 psi on a 16x3” is quite low even for a 80kg rider. You best avoid surprise potholes… 

I use same PSI as i used in original 18x2.5".  Have even ridden 16s which has 16x2.125" tire at ~25 psi. And being 125kg it's worlds difference.

Big tire or small.. Size doesn't matter. The air pressure will be the same. You are putting in more air, but the pressure doesn't change. (Pump gage.. will show the same.)

[mrelwood]

46 minutes ago, Funky said:

Big tire or small.. Size doesn't matter. The air pressure will be the same. You are putting in more air, but the pressure doesn't change. (Pump gage.. will show the same.)

The air volume most definitely matters! Smaller ones need more pressure to feel the same and to protect the rim the same.

 Find any bicycle tire pressure calculator for proof.

 Ever wonder why road/track bicyclists and wheelchairs use 120psi in their tires? Yet some tractor tires have a max psi limit of 24?

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

The air volume most definitely matters! Smaller ones need more pressure to feel the same and to protect the rim the same.

 Find any bicycle tire pressure calculator for proof.

 Ever wonder why road/track bicyclists and wheelchairs use 120psi in their tires? Yet some tractor tires have a max psi limit of 24?

I didn't mean it like that. Yes the smaller/skinnier the tire - more PSI it needs..

I meant that no matter the size. It will read at some point 25psi. Aka - big tire more air, smaller less air. Smaller gets hard with 3 pumps, big one gets hard with 25 pumps.

18x2.5" vs 16x3" isn't big difference in air volume.

 

[Uras]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

18x2.5" vs 16x3" isn't big difference in air volume

That's true when it comes to traction - the contact patch should be similar. One is wider, one is longer. I wonder how this would relate to air pressure with regard to protecting the rim?

I'm frustrated; I always check out my partner's tire, whether mtb or wheel or motorcycle and I can see if it's at a good pressure (maintaining shape on smooth surface but deforming over small bumps). She can't do the same for me. I use the camera on my phone to film the tire as I'm bouncing on it in a stationary position. I suppose this would be a good starting point, and then filming while riding off a kerb; that's about the limit of my riding right now. I think I'll continue along those lines - there's also tire carcass stiffness that comes into play - stiffer tires = less pressure. And height of the tire - some tires are taller than others (high or low profile). Oh, and rim width - that's huge. I've found that larger tires on skinnier rims need a surprisingly higher pressure - I converted an xc bike for more trail oriented riding, and ran slightly larger tires on a van for rougher roads; both needed more pressure. That is, I was expecting to need less pressure by fitting the larger tires, but that wasn't so. That slight ballooning makes a lot of difference.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Uras