KS18XL platforms "readjusting" in ride

[Micheal Shen]

1 hour ago, JBinBalt said:

That's me in the video.   There are a couple of things I'd like to mention.  While I definitely have a problem with my wheel, it's never totally cut out on me, other than possibly this time in the video.  When I reported my issue to eWheels I told Jason that I wasn't sure if this was related to my ongoing issues or not.  By this time I'd sort of gotten used to the "wobble" as @Lutalo calls it, or "fluttering" as I've termed it.  Neither of my Solowheels has ever done anything like it, and my XL never did it for the first 45 days or so that I owned it.  It then started doing it occasionally.  It really scared me the first few times.  I started to get used to it, and began to have confidence that it would recover when it did this.  It started to do it with more frequency, and I started to think that maybe this was normal and that the wheel was somehow "re-leveling" it self periodically in the course of riding.  

This incident above, which I still think was a cut-out or failure of some sort, caused me to re-evaluate everything, thus the call to eWheels and the new motherboard.  After installing and calibrating, I had the first instance of the problem within my first mile or so of riding, which was disappointing because I really believe the motherboard would fix it.  At that point I really started to wonder if this was all "normal" wheel behavior and if I was making a big deal out of nothing.  This gave me the idea of swapping rides with Lutalo.  As I'm sure he'll attest, he rode my wheel for at least 15 miles, but spotted the first problem within the first 50 yards.  He said something like "Whoa, what is that?  That's not normal.  You need to send this thing back".  Meanwhile, I had the smoothest 15 miles I'd ridden in a while on his wheel.  Something is definitely wrong with my wheel.

As to the video, I'm really trying not to be defensive.  However... I've got somewhere north of 3000 miles of riding between my three wheels, which would take me more than half way across the United States.  I had over 500 miles on my XL when this happened. I know my 3K is not much compared to many on this forum, but I don't just fall off of my wheel on terrain like that, even with a dip or small hole in the road.  I still fall, but not from stuff like this.

I was confused by what happened at the time.  I thought maybe I struck an object, and you can hear me say that in the video.  Yes, I also noticed the behavior in my left foot.  Probably no one has reviewed this video more than I have.  I've slowed it down, taken screen shots, etc.  Whatever is going on there, I believe I was just trying to react to whatever the wheel was doing or not doing, which is also influenced by the terrain.  If I was pressing too hard on the left pedal then why was my left foot the first one to come off?  Given the problems why wheel has been exhibiting, I don't think you can make judgments about what it is doing just by looking at the lights.

We can analyze this to the end of time, but I was on the wheel and no one else was.  I maintain it was the wheel.  Even if I'm wrong, I've already said that this was a one-time occurrence, but that the other problem I've been having has been frequent and ongoing.  @Lutalo, who owns at least four King Song wheels and has several more years and many more miles of riding experience than I do has validated that something is wrong with my wheel.

You're in China, and you mention "our tester", so I assume you work for King Song?  I'm not sure why you're questioning me on a public forum rather than contacting me directly or at least engaging me through your US distributor.  Whatever the case, we're in this now, so if you represent King Song, what can be done here?  I know one other rider in DC, also an experienced rider and very skilled (more than me), who is reporting this issue with his wheel. Also take a look at the comments in this thread from @Lueksparky and @Meserias.  They are also reporting similar issues to mine.  Something is going on here, it's not just me.

I look forward to your response, and to find out how King Song is going to help me and other with this problem.

 

Sorry, i don't know who is in this video, and not mean to question anyone else.

once cut out or cut off, the wheel will be shut down and lose its balance, and the pedal will dip forward or tilt back.

motor losing power, the wheel will not be shut down and pedal still dip forward or tilt back, and the wheel will move forward for a short distance because of inertance.

motor stuck, the wheel will not be shut down and the pedal will be parallel to the ground, but not move, will cause a faceplant. bcz the wheel is stopped, while the body will move forward.

In fact, the wheel need horizontal calibration when the controller losing the balance data from the hall sensor.

e.g. upgrade firmware, wheel severe impact, change controller board, change motor and so on.

[JBinBalt]

I’m done discussing the fall. Whatever the case, it was a one time event and not the main issue that I have daily.  @Micheal Shen, you asked about calibration. I’ve tried this multiple times, as recently as this morning since Jason at eWheels asked me to try it again. I am out on my wheel now. I’ve ridden about 1.5 miles. I had pedal fluctuations about 200 yards into my ride in the middle of a flat level street, and once more time since. 

Please forget about my fall, perhaps I should not have bothered with that point. Let’s turn our attention to my primary problem, which is been reported by other owners, and verified by another experienced rider on my own wheel.  Calibration does not help. What can we do next?

[US69]

8 minutes ago, JBinBalt said:

I’m done discussing the fall. Whatever the case, it was a one time event and not the main issue that I have daily.  @Micheal Shen, you asked about calibration. I’ve tried this multiple times, as recently as this morning since Jason at eWheels asked me to try it again. I am out on my wheel now. I’ve ridden about 1.5 miles. I had pedal fluctuations about 200 yards into my ride in the middle of a flat level street, and once more time since. 

Please forget about my fall, perhaps I should not have bothered with that point. Let’s turn our attention to my primary problem, which is been reported by other owners, and verified by another experienced rider on my own wheel.  Calibration does not help. What can we do next?

Just seeing this thread now...

When @Lutalo also said your Wheel has a Problem and does not ride as any normal Wheel, the correct Thing todo is to contact your seller, Jason i guess and let him check the Wheel.

That is the only way to get rid of your Problem. We just can give tips like "do a recalibration" butunfortunatly it is very hard to do far away diagnosis.

So please contact Jason and ask him to check the Wheel. When a board Change has done Nothing to help, there is probably something wrong with the Motor.

That is seldom...but can happen.

[Lutalo]

3 minutes ago, US69 said:

Just seeing this thread now...

When @Lutalo also said your Wheel has a Problem and does not ride as any normal Wheel, the correct Thing todo is to contact your seller, Jason i guess and let him check the Wheel.

That is the only way to get rid of your Problem. We just can give tips like "do a recalibration" butunfortunatly it is very hard to do far away diagnosis.

So please contact Jason and ask him to check the Wheel. When a board Change has done Nothing to help, there is probably something wrong with the Motor.

That is seldom...but can happen.

Thanks for chiming in on this Ulf. At this point the fall we managed to video is a tangent, and focusing on it doesn’t contribute to proper diagnosis. @JBinBalt ‘s wheel exhibited the problematic behavior both prior to, and subsequent to the fall. So, its not a big deal if they are unrelated. I am sure that Jason is doing his best. I know that you recall helping me with a similar problem some time ago with one of my older wheels. His wheel’s behavior is similar to my wheel at that time; only, the behavior of my wheel was more extreme and easier to see by the time I videoed it. However, my wheel had the same hesitation/vibration as @JBinBalt ‘s  Wheel for quite some time before It became unrideable, and I was forced to address it. In this case, it was motor; so, it stands to reason that it’s likely the problem here. 

Not sure how seldom it is either, because Jason currently has another 18XL from a DC rider @Declan acoustic-unicyclist in for service exhibiting the same behavior, as @JBinBalt ‘s 18XL. The behavior is the same, but the cause could be different; as the DC 18XL that is in for service has greatly diminished range capability. So far Ulf, the following steps have been completed:

1. Contacting seller? Done. Check.

2.  Controlboard swap? Done.  Check. 

3. Multiple Recalibrations; both, pre and post controlboard replacement? Done. Check.

4. ???

[US69]

3 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

following steps have been completed:

1. Contacting seller? Done. Check.

2.  Controlboard swap? Done.  Check. 

3. Multiple Recalibrations; both, pre and post controlboard replacement? Done. Check.

4. ???

Yeah, got that from the thread.

Nonetheless 4th step has to be Jason again, most probably it is time for a Motor swap.

As said, far diagnosis is hard to make, and as swapping board has lead to Nothing it is time for another Hardware check.

Sorry when i cant help more….

[JBinBalt]

33 minutes ago, US69 said:

Just seeing this thread now...

When @Lutalo also said your Wheel has a Problem and does not ride as any normal Wheel, the correct Thing todo is to contact your seller, Jason i guess and let him check the Wheel.

That is the only way to get rid of your Problem. We just can give tips like "do a recalibration" butunfortunatly it is very hard to do far away diagnosis.

So please contact Jason and ask him to check the Wheel. When a board Change has done Nothing to help, there is probably something wrong with the Motor.

That is seldom...but can happen.

Thank you for chiming in @US69.  I have been in touch almost daily with Jason at eWheels (that how I got the new board) and we're trying to figure out what to do.

[Lutalo]

Just now, US69 said:

Yeah, got that from the thread.

Nonetheless 4th step has to be Jason again, most probably it is time for a Motor swap.

As said, far diagnosis is hard to make, and as swapping board has lead to Nothing it is time for another Hardware check.

Sorry when i cant help more….

No worries man. I always appreciate you for trying to be helpful. You are absolutely right that this issue is back in the dealer’s lap. 😉👍🏿

[US69]

2 minutes ago, JBinBalt said:

Thank you for chiming in @US69.  I have been in touch almost daily with Jason at eWheels (that how I got the new board) and we're trying to figure out what to do.

 

Just now, Lutalo said:

No worries man. I always appreciate you for trying to be helpful. You are absolutely right that this issue is back in the dealer’s lap. 😉👍🏿

Yip, i personally would prefer to see it in sellers Hand....other Option is to receive a Motor...

[Lutalo]

Just now, US69 said:

 

Yip, i personally would prefer to see it in sellers Hand....other Option is to receive a Motor...

I agree, but if Jason decides to just send the motor It is an easy enough install. @JBinBalt has good friends willing to help. Whatever is decided, it will work out well in the end.

[Declan acoustic-unicyclist]

I'd just like to jump in and say I am experiencing the same sudden-adjust issue that Jbinbalt reports. The pedals will suddenly dip about 15 degrees without any beep or notification.

 

The overlean sensor still works normally and beeps as expected. 

 

This happens somewhat randomly, maybe 1 or 2 times per 10 mile ride. My 18XL is with ewheels right now for repair, so I cannot video the issue.

 

 

I am an experienced rider and when I press too hard on the pedal it beeps and adjusts gently. 

[JBinBalt]

A quick update here... KS has contacted me directly and asked me to try downgrading my firmware and testing my wheel with both v1.11 and v1.12.  They provided software and instructions to do this, but it requires an Android phone which I do not have.  I'll make arrangements and try to test this weekend, and will report back.

[AtlasP]

Surprised to not see anyone mentioning that several riders in the NYC Hoodriderz group have reported similar issues due specifically to the 1.12 firmware (and which were not resolved in 1.13).

I'd definitely recommend the firmware downgrade before swapping out any more parts.

Then if that proves to fix it, the next question would be is Lutalo running the latest firmware and, if so, why are some wheels affected and others not? And in that case does that mean the firmware issue still reveals some kind of hardware difference or hardware problem with some wheels over others? (Like perhaps the 1.12/1.13 firmware is just more susceptible to battery inconsistency/battery problems, such that wheels with perfect batteries don't exhibit the problem on 1.12+ but certain battery issues coupled with 1.12+ do exhibit it?) In that case you'd want to resolve the hardware battery problem, although then the firmware still should see a fix to minimize this kind of instability anytime anyone begins to experience a battery problem--if the earlier firmware could then the latest should be able to.

Edited July 22, 2019 by AtlasP

[Micheal Shen]

4 hours ago, AtlasP said:

Surprised to not see anyone mentioning that several riders in the NYC Hoodriderz group have reported similar issues due specifically to the 1.12 firmware (and which were not resolved in 1.13).

I'd definitely recommend the firmware downgrade before swapping out any more parts.

Then if that proves to fix it, the next question would be is Lutalo running the latest firmware and, if so, why are some wheels affected and others not? And in that case does that mean the firmware issue still reveals some kind of hardware difference or hardware problem with some wheels over others? (Like perhaps the 1.12/1.13 firmware is just more susceptible to battery inconsistency/battery problems, such that wheels with perfect batteries don't exhibit the problem on 1.12+ but certain battery issues coupled with 1.12+ do exhibit it?) In that case you'd want to resolve the hardware battery problem, although then the firmware still should see a fix to minimize this kind of instability anytime anyone begins to experience a battery problem--if the earlier firmware could then the latest should be able to.

That's the point. It seems V1.13 optimize the balance self-checking system, which need more accurate balance data.

Balance data will be affected by firmware upgrade, horizontal calibration, gyroscope and so on.

[Declan acoustic-unicyclist]

17 hours ago, AtlasP said:

Surprised to not see anyone mentioning that several riders in the NYC Hoodriderz group have reported similar issues due specifically to the 1.12 firmware (and which were not resolved in 1.13).

I'd definitely recommend the firmware downgrade before swapping out any more parts.

Then if that proves to fix it, the next question would be is Lutalo running the latest firmware and, if so, why are some wheels affected and others not? And in that case does that mean the firmware issue still reveals some kind of hardware difference or hardware problem with some wheels over others? (Like perhaps the 1.12/1.13 firmware is just more susceptible to battery inconsistency/battery problems, such that wheels with perfect batteries don't exhibit the problem on 1.12+ but certain battery issues coupled with 1.12+ do exhibit it?) In that case you'd want to resolve the hardware battery problem, although then the firmware still should see a fix to minimize this kind of instability anytime anyone begins to experience a battery problem--if the earlier firmware could then the latest should be able to.

Thank you for this speculation! Lutalo is in fact running the latest firmware, 1.13. However, he has not had issue with his battery. I, however, have been having issues with my battery, and perhaps the two issues are compounding each other.

 

I'm glad (but also sad) to know that NYC folks are also experiencing this, so perhaps we can apply some pressure on KingSong to actually fix this issue. I personally loved the 1.13 update as it improves the motor's torque. I had pedal issues even with 1.12 but have not tested with 1.11 yet. I'd really hate to be running the older firmware, with its much shittier braking, but will do what needs to be done to get my wheel operational.

 

Thanks for the insight on the battery. Hopefully Jason from ewheels addressed my battery issue and I'll be able to test the pedal dip issue, in isolation.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Declan acoustic-unicyclist

[JBinBalt]

Hello All-

I just wanted to report back that I've downgraded to v1.11.  I've ridden just over 20 miles and so far I'm no longer experiencing the balancing problem.  As some of you may recall, we first tried replacing my controller (which didn't fix the issue), so now I'm considering going back to my original controller and downgrading it as well in order to see if I have the same results.  I think that @AtlasP asks a relevant question above, as to why some wheels are experiencing this problem under v1.12 and v1.13, and others don't seem to be impacted.  I can say that I get great range on my wheel and I see no other indications of battery issues.  Including rides with both controllers I probably have about 1500 miles on it.

 

[Meserias]

your internal shell it's made from white or black plastic ?
you could see it easily looking between the tire and external shell.

[DJMaxAlex]

First post on this forum as I absolutely had to chime in on this issue.

I'm a new rider of approximately 3 months. It seems everyone here is mentioning the issue on their KS18XL's but I'm also experiencing this issue on my KS14S.
Some things I'd like to point out so you take this with a grain of salt are:
- I've clocked just over 1K kilometers on my wheel now
- It's taken tumbles in sand, gravel and high grass (2 falls so far at low speeds)
- I have never opened the wheel, only re-greasing the pedals.
- When learning to ride, I stuck with the stock firmware and have ridden on Experiment mode almost exclusively.
- I am currently on the latest firmware (1.13?) and upgraded from a previous unknown version (1.12 or lower?) because I was not able to click the "Confirm" button to change speed settings.
- This issue seems to only have occurred around the 1.13 firmware time-frame
- I have recalibrated it multiple times to solve a different issue (Pedal dipping when turning)
- I'm a light rider, clocking in at 108lbs (I get extended range out of my wheel)
- I do not own a fast charger (Having only borrowed a friend's maybe 3 times due to urgency) and I've charged my wheel with the stock brick that's connected to a timer, charging no more than 4 hours at a time as it gets ridiculously hot.

My speed settings:
- First alarm disabled
- Second alarm at 28km/h
- Third alarm at 30km/h

With that out of the way, I'll describe my experiences with this readjustment:
The majority of times the pedals have readjusted, they have always tilted backward; With only one exception being forward (And it scared the hell out of me). When I'm out riding with the group, I'll be riding in the city on paved paths or roads and I'll be pushing >25km/h speeds almost the entire time. The pedal readjustment will never happen at the beginning of the ride and seems to surface after at least a half-hour or more of riding. In one of my trips with a friend through a light-gravel/dirt path that was relatively straight, I had it happen to me twice at lower speeds (20-ish km/h?). It is completely unpredictable and while I have been able to stay balanced every time it happens, I'm afraid of the chances when I'm on a dedicated bike lane right beside traffic.

To say that the pedals tilt 15° may be exaggerating slightly. Although it does certainly feel like it at times. With the exception of today's ride, it always seems to have a specific sound when it happens. I can only describe this sound like so: If you push a shopping cart/flatbed that's relatively heavy with your wheel, you can hear the motor struggling and producing a "notched sound". Similar to one dragging their nail heavily across a microphone grating or say....a ziptie? But slowly.

It's scary when it happens, as it feels like the wheel just lost power for a split second and you're free-falling. This is different than the phenomenon of when you turn (by putting pressure on one corner of a pedal, not leaning horizontally.) and your pedals seem to choose between dipping forward or backward before readjusting back to it's level-position. It's also different than the tilt-back as my wheel has always told me to "Please decelerate" when I'm nearing my limit and tilting accordingly. The tilt-back has never failed me thus far and due to the way I ride, is mostly minor (I can usually feel it before the wheel tells me verbally).
 

On 7/26/2019 at 4:01 PM, JBinBalt said:

Hello All-

I just wanted to report back that I've downgraded to v1.11.  I've ridden just over 20 miles and so far I'm no longer experiencing the balancing problem.  As some of you may recall, we first tried replacing my controller (which didn't fix the issue), so now I'm considering going back to my original controller and downgrading it as well in order to see if I have the same results.  I think that @AtlasP asks a relevant question above, as to why some wheels are experiencing this problem under v1.12 and v1.13, and others don't seem to be impacted.  I can say that I get great range on my wheel and I see no other indications of battery issues.  Including rides with both controllers I probably have about 1500 miles on it.

 

Could you instruct me how to downgrade to v1.11 @JBinBalt?

[JBinBalt]

17 hours ago, DJMaxAlex said:

It's scary when it happens, as it feels like the wheel just lost power for a split second and you're free-falling.

Hell @DJMaxAlex.  You described it well as a split second of free falling. I'd agree that it is usually tilting back, but sometimes forward.  I'll also note that it was totally random for me.  Sometime I might see it in the first couple of hundred meters after power up and setting out, other times it may take miles.  For those following along, I'm now 40+ miles since downgrading and have not seen the problem since returning to v1.11.  It first appeared for me shortly after upgrading to v1.12 and remained on v1.13.

Regarding downgrading, KingSong sent me an app  (they called it the SoftTuner) and a login for the app.  You'll need a Android phone, it is not available on IOS.  I ran into one snag where the app would not find my wheel in Bluetooth.  It turned out that location services were disabled on the phone, and for some reason this stopped 3rd party apps from running Bluetooth discovery.  Once I corrected that everything went smoothly and the process was very quick.  They even sent me a video.

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to distribute that software, so I suggest you start with emailing KS Support (support@szkingsong.com) for the SoftTuner, or your distributor.  I know eWheels also has it, if that's who you bought from.   @Micheal Shen from KS is also on this thread and he may be able to hook you up.  If none of those options work out then please let me know.

Good luck!  I'll be curious to hear if you can duplicate my results!

[JBinBalt]

On 7/27/2019 at 1:54 AM, Meserias said:

your internal shell it's made from white or black plastic ?
you could see it easily looking between the tire and external shell.

I'm not sure if it was me that you're asking, but mine is white.

[DJMaxAlex]

On 7/29/2019 at 6:47 PM, JBinBalt said:

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to distribute that software, so I suggest you start with emailing KS Support (support@szkingsong.com) for the SoftTuner, or your distributor.  I know eWheels also has it, if that's who you bought from.   @Micheal Shen from KS is also on this thread and he may be able to hook you up.  If none of those options work out then please let me know.

I've reached out to KingSong support and sent them an email but have yet to hear back from them as of this point in time. Due to my account's infancy, I'm also unable to privately send @Micheal Shen a message. So I'll just have to ask him here: @Micheal Shen, could you give me a hand in downgrading my KS14S?

I got my wheel from SmartWheel.ca, or rather their physical store. Being my first purchase, I wasn't as comfortable (as some of the other expensive things I've bought) making a purchase online for one; Especially since it could weigh a bit. I decided to visit the physical location in person for ease of mind. Although my interactions with Jason certainly give me confidence in the man and buying from him in the future. My interactions with SmartWheel in terms of support has been...mixed. I'm trying to determine a different phenomenon I'm experiencing with my wheel that is diffficult to know whether it's just my perception or the wheel itself. They have yet to reach back to me regarding a different inquiry (purely a specs question).

[magicrobots]

This actually sounds a lot like what many of us are experiencing on the 16x. Does anybody know if a firmware downgrade is possible on the new wheel or will it explode?

[JBinBalt]

A brief update on this.  A few weeks ago I returned the replacement motherboard that eWheels provided and swapped back to the original board that came in my wheel, and I downgraded that board to v1.11.  As with the replacement board from eWheels, the problem stopped when I downgraded.  I've ridden several hundred miles since then with no issues.

I'm left wondering why some 18XLs have no problem with v1.12 and v1.13, but mine does.  I have notices one development, the standard Kingsong app (at least on my phone and on @Lutalo's when we tried it with my wheel) is now saying that v1.11 is the latest version, it no longer offers an upgrade.  Additionally, in the soft tuner app that KS provided, there is now a v1.14 listed, and they confirmed in email that they are working on a new firmware.  I'm certainly going to wait for their go-ahead before trying.

That is the latest.  If anyone has ideas on why some 18XLs have this problem and not others, I'd love to hear them.

[Lutalo]

23 hours ago, JBinBalt said:

A brief update on this.  A few weeks ago I returned the replacement motherboard that eWheels provided and swapped back to the original board that came in my wheel, and I downgraded that board to v1.11.  As with the replacement board from eWheels, the problem stopped when I downgraded.  I've ridden several hundred miles since then with no issues.

I'm left wondering why some 18XLs have no problem with v1.12 and v1.13, but mine does.  I have notices one development, the standard Kingsong app (at least on my phone and on @Lutalo's when we tried it with my wheel) is now saying that v1.11 is the latest version, it no longer offers an upgrade.  Additionally, in the soft tuner app that KS provided, there is now a v1.14 listed, and they confirmed in email that they are working on a new firmware.  I'm certainly going to wait for their go-ahead before trying.

That is the latest.  If anyone has ideas on why some 18XLs have this problem and not others, I'd love to hear them.

Well now, We’ve certainly entertained some wild speculations on this one together; haven’t we? 😂😂😂😂

[JBinBalt]

This thread has been dormant for a while, but I wanted to circle back with an update. As of August I'd given up and downgraded my firmware to v1.11.  While I'd sort of gotten used the occasional platform shifting that I was experiencing on v1.12 and and v1.13, I decided I didn't really want to live with it.  I saw that v2.0 was available, so I upgraded about two weeks ago.   I'm very glad to report that I've gotten about 50-60 miles of riding in since then with no issues.  That's enough for me to say that whatever problem I had has been solved in v2.0.  It's nice to finally have the benefits of the new firmware, without any problems, even if it took a while.  I'm still curious why some 18XLs experienced my issue and some did not, but we may never find that out.

Edited February 14, 2020 by JBinBalt
fix grammer