UK EUC insurance - anyone interested if it was offered?

[Planemo]

On 7/14/2022 at 6:45 PM, Obee said:

But you don't need an insurance company to do that. You could organize it yourself.  Get a bunch of people to put some money in a pot and then give it to someone who ends up needing it. 

Most vehicle insurance companies will have liability cover for at least £1 million.

Would need to find a big bunch of people to put that in a pot.

And you would need to trust every single one of them.

[Planemo]

11 hours ago, nute said:

and when ESDF were trying to raise money and it was publicised on the facebook groups it was depressing how few people actually felt strongly enough to donate a coupe of quid.

The problem with the ESDF funding campaign was that it came at an unfortunate time. It smacked of them asking for money in order to pay the legal fees for someone who had been busted for riding and whilst I get that ESDF were going along the tack of using the case to try and set a precedent which could possibly help everyone in the future, I struggled to find anyone who could tell me exactly what the funds were being spent on.

I get that it was probably going on barrister/solicitor fees, but that wont help change the law and a precedent that leads to a change in the law is incredibly difficult as well.

So that leaves things such as mitigating circumstances and special cases and they will vary from individual case to case so the upshot was that many people felt that they weren't really getting much for their donation. Whilst that summary may be completely and utterly wrong, thats what it looked like to many folk.

I never heard anything more after the campaign, do you know what happened to the court case, how much money was raised or whether the ESDF have achieved anything in relation to PEV law? I would be very interested to hear.

As regards to finding loopholes I stated a long time back that there weren't any. The current legislation is written to catch all and it does it very effectively so the only sure fire way of the vast public riding a PEV legally is to get a change in law. I know that Rob has managed to register his EUC as a mobility device but even he would agree its not technically legal due to the speed capability. Because of this, if he has a collision at speed he could be in fat trouble. Thankfully, he is one of the most sensible and considerate riders I know and rarely speeds anywhere so if anyone deserves to not have issues it should be him.

In short, I think that if the ESDF campaign had started before or well after the court case and explicitly stated what the donations were being spent on it would have generated lot more interest.

11 hours ago, nute said:

Electroheads with one of the rideables.org guys on micro mobility and disability - 

Robs video was excellent and probably the most hard-hitting challenge to getting the law changed I have seen. When it was released I sent it to the team responsible for UK PEV legislation (I work for the UK Gov, albeit in a different dept) and the response I got was just as shocking. They said it was incredibly enlightening and admitted they hadn't fully considered the benefits that PEV's could provide to those with disabilities. The vid made it into the largest PEV government seminar and went around the working group who are actually in charge of making/changing vehicle legislation.

That single Electroheads/rideables/Rob video raised a lot of eyebrows in UK Gov and I am hugely indebted to Rob et all for doing it. Whether it actually helps make a difference we will probably never know but I conversed with Rob shortly after to let him know the circles it had been shared in and of course express my thanks to him.

We can only hope.

[Tazarinho]

Saw this thread in the 'activity report' and while I'm not living in the UK I thought I might share some insights on what the situation is in Belgium. Especially since I saw the question being raised. 'Will I still be covered if what I am doing is illegal'

In Belgium we are allowed to drive EUC's up to 25 km/h. Additionally, standard 'Family Insurance' suffices for this, if the max speed of the EUC is 25 km/h.

However, several insurance companies also offer insurance for PEV's up to 45 km/h, which is bundled into the same insurance the as speed pedelecs (for which you need a license plate in Belgium). And EUC's are specifically mentioned in the policies. 

So we are required have to have insurance for EUC's that can go faster than 25 km/h, which is illegal.

How does this work in practice? So far it seems that people who damage their EUC's or themselves have been paid by the insurance companies without too much hassle.

However in the few instances a third party was involved and would have been required to pay, the lawyers of the third party were quick to point out that the device was illegal and therefore their insurance refused to pay up, unless the owner could prove that the device could go no faster than 25 km/h (free-spin...).

Anyway, sorry for the intrusion. But hope this helps.

[Planemo]

26 minutes ago, Tazarinho said:

n the few instances a third party was involved and would have been required to pay, the lawyers of the third party were quick to point out that the device was illegal and therefore their insurance refused to pay up, unless the owner could prove that the device could go no faster than 25 km/h (free-spin...).

Theres no doubt we will face the same problem, even if EUC's are legalised alongside other PEV's. The lawmakers like putting speed limits on personal mobility which is why ebikes over here are so heavily locked down when it comes to software manipulation etc. 15.5mph is all we get (to remain a pedelec) and so when we have EUC's with 60+ mph free spin speeds its going to be a problem.

An EUC with a 25mph free spin will be safe to what...18mph?

Unless the manufacturers produce 'regulation EUC's' for specific markets which when tested won't go over 15.5mph no matter what the rider does (which as we know is difficult in itself with a self balancing vehicle - maybe use severe tiltback?) I can't see EUC's ever being legal here

Clearly the best option would be to legalise everything, forget about what max speed the vehicle can do and simply state that anyone going over say 15.5mph gets a speeding fine (like car speed fines) but I am 99.9% sure that won't happen given the current situation with ebikes which aren't legal at all unless they have manufacturer firmware caps set at 15.5mph. Anything that can do more than this is illegal even if you only ever do 10mph on it.

 

[nute]

ESDF have sent out updates to those who donated (think that is something they can do via the donation site). Not sure if you saw the PACTS final report on micro mobility but it wasn't very positive, and its rather frustrating that they have such good govt access when the authors have never ridden a scooter and probably never seen an EUC. Mark is currently working on a response to that and was hoping to use some of the ESDF cash to get it pushed under the noses of those who make the decisions and into the press.

Last time I saw him (at fully charged) he was intending to send out another update.

Rob mentioned that the electroheads video had found its way to the decision makers so thank you so much for pushing it along to them.  Id love to show those making the decisions how practical an EUC is but getting access to them is like banging your head against  wall. All you every get back is the standard form BlahBlah that they send out to everyone writing in. 

[Planemo]

Not sure I've seen the PACT report, the latest response I have seen was the one I posted back in May on the 'In the news' thread. That was a PDF overview document and within it was a link to the full report. It is the latest news that has been circulated via work that I am aware of. Link:

Its a shame that ESDF haven't shared their progess outside of those who donated. They may have gained more ground/donations had they done so.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Planemo

[nute]

Here is the final one - https://www.pacts.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/PACTS-The-safety-of-private-e-scooters-in-the-UK-Final-Report.pdf

Im not part of ESDF but in Mark's defence he's recently become a father and has a full time job, so time is likely very tight for him. Thats part of the problem with the "pro" side of the argument, we are doing this on a shoestring whilst having families and full time jobs.