UK EUC insurance - anyone interested if it was offered?

[stephen]

On 5/18/2019 at 9:05 PM, nute said:

A group of us in the UK are speaking to an insurance agent who is in turn discussing issuing EUC insurance with an underwriter. They have already issued a few policies but have put things on hold whilst they try to agree on the details. The agent has asked me if i can give him an idea of numbers of potential customers for policies.

If a public liability policy was offered for say £70 a year how many UK riders would be interested in this?

If you would be could you please let me know below ... I have asked the same question on some facebook groups so if you have already responded elsewhere please don't do so twice.  A couple of us have also set up a UK not for profit company and a website to try to promote EUC use so if you want to be kept advised of progress you can register your email address at Rideables.org

Has the insurance company gone live again?

[nute]

Haven’t a clue, sorry. 

Im not sure how this will pan out but if there is a chance of it working out I’m all for it. If it doesn’t, well at least we tried....

I will let you know if I hear anything further.

[nute]

Sad to say its a bust gents, RSA won't allow policies to be sold. 

If anything changes i will let you know. 

[rinzler]

30 minutes ago, nute said:

Sad to say its a bust gents, RSA won't allow policies to be sold. 

If anything changes i will let you know. 

Who're RSA? And just for the avoidance of doubt, is it correct that your line of enquiry was separate from the other chap with the £70 mobility-euc cover?

Appreciate the effort either way. Covert operation seems to be route 1 for now.

[Planemo]

As I thought, a faux pas made by someone, somewhere.

A shame, but cant say I am surprised. As you say rinzler, all we can do is be courteous and avoid the Old Bill at all costs.

[stephen]

8 hours ago, Planemo said:

As I thought, a faux pas made by someone, somewhere.

A shame, but cant say I am surprised. As you say rinzler, all we can do is be courteous and avoid the Old Bill at all costs.

The people who got policy's have been refunded now , you was right they looked into it and i was looking forward to it been some sort of paperwork ☹️

Edited May 22, 2019 by stephen

[nute]

Sorry, RSA are Royal Sun Alliance. It was worth a shot, if anything changes I will post it here.

[cutmire]

I'm desperately looking for insurance so yes please any time this happens.

I have a kingsong S18 live in london

[CHZ]

On 5/18/2019 at 9:05 PM, nute said:

A group of us in the UK are speaking to an insurance agent who is in turn discussing issuing EUC insurance with an underwriter. They have already issued a few policies but have put things on hold whilst they try to agree on the details. The agent has asked me if i can give him an idea of numbers of potential customers for policies.

If a public liability policy was offered for say £70 a year how many UK riders would be interested in this?

If you would be could you please let me know below ... I have asked the same question on some facebook groups so if you have already responded elsewhere please don't do so twice.  A couple of us have also set up a UK not for profit company and a website to try to promote EUC use so if you want to be kept advised of progress you can register your email address at Rideables.org

I would be interested too. Looking at the govement policy. Many of the test cases have been found against EUC riders because of lack of insurance..

 

Chris 

[Gasmantle]

49 minutes ago, CHZ said:

I would be interested too. Looking at the govement policy. Many of the test cases have been found against EUC riders because of lack of insurance..

 

Chris 

You won't get anywhere with the insurance route until you get EUC's legalised.

Lack of insurance on the 'test cases' is really an incidental result of the primary crime which is riding and illegal vehicle on a public highway -  and that by definition precludes insurance

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Gasmantle

[CHZ]

3 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

You won't get anywhere with the insurance route until you get EUC's legalised

Lack of insurance on the 'test cases' is really an incidental result of the primary crime which is riding and illegal vehicle on a public highway -  and that by definition precludes insurance

 

Agreed but I'd rather have some form of liability insurance in place just in case I do hit 'little Jimmy on his bike'

[Gasmantle]

39 minutes ago, CHZ said:

Agreed but I'd rather have some form of liability insurance in place just in case I do hit 'little Jimmy on his bike'

We all would but the fact remains that you can't insure yourself against causing injury while carrying out an illegal act.

[CHZ]

So the next logical question is how to exert pressure to get EUCs legalised? Has anyone tried petitioning? Sorry I'm pretty new to this and need a bit of a history lesson... I know of the hired scooter 'loophole/trial '..

[NickNonsense]

Form some kind of association that represents us as a group and starting pumping resources into it to lobby against the government. 

Otherwise we just going wait for the escooter trails to finish and be lumped in with them hopefully. 

[Gasmantle]

2 hours ago, CHZ said:

So the next logical question is how to exert pressure to get EUCs legalised? Has anyone tried petitioning? Sorry I'm pretty new to this and need a bit of a history lesson... I know of the hired scooter 'loophole/trial '..

I regularly meet with my MP for a variety of reasons, quite often I've raised EUC legalisation with him but he's very evasive. 

Now with all the bad publicity surrounding Escooters I've given up the cause. It's a sad situation but I think that legalisation of EUC's in the UK will never happen and any further dialogue with my MP is likely to do more harm than good.

[CHZ]

There are a couple of Petitions on the Government website worth signing up to (and getting freinds to do similar) the most supported is this :

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/578486

Not ideal because it's Scooters but still with support. 

 

[GoldenOne]

On 7/4/2021 at 10:54 PM, Gasmantle said:

I regularly meet with my MP for a variety of reasons, quite often I've raised EUC legalisation with him but he's very evasive. 

Now with all the bad publicity surrounding Escooters I've given up the cause. It's a sad situation but I think that legalisation of EUC's in the UK will never happen and any further dialogue with my MP is likely to do more harm than good.

Honestly the main concern from all areas where the E-Scooter trials are running seems to be that people are using them on pavements putting pedestrians at risk.
To which there is a simple solution for the government: LET US USE THEM ON THE ROAD!

Seriously why is an e-bike any different? That's dangerous if weaving through people on the pavement too (so would a motorbike or car for that matter) but the simple answer is that they are used on the road instead.

If PLEVs were legalised for road use then owners would be happy, and pedestrians wouldn't be bothered.
It's not the existence of E-Scooters which is causing problems, but the fact that they're being kept in this legal grey area where rules are different depending on where you are, whether it's yours or rented etc, and so few people are clear on it.

Make it exactly the same as bikes, job done.......
 

[Jelly]

Yes, I found this because I'm looking for EUC insurance and would 100% be interested. I ride a Surron but this is road legal so easy to insure. My electric scooter is as safe as I can make it with lights and disc brakes etc and I ride fully kitted and with full respect to pedestrians etc but there is no way to insure it. I really want to get an EUC and I definitely would if I could insure it. I think that this, along with safe riding, would go a long way in your favour should an over-zealous police man decide to hassle you. 

It is a shame that the government is, in reality, forcing people to break the law. The reason I say this is that many people had to ride e-scooters before the government was 'forced' to take a look at the law. If everyone had abided by the strict letter of the law then the government would never have looked at, or addressed, the situation. They only do this when pressured and the pressure came from increasing usage...thus people were forced to use e-scooters against the law in order to get the government to address the law and make it legal. This situation is clearly ridiculous, but then who expects our politicians to be positive and proactive about anything???

Conclusion - I would 100% get EUC insurance if available. 

[Cerbera]

On 7/4/2021 at 5:54 PM, CHZ said:

If a public liability policy was offered for say £70 a year how many UK riders would be interested in this?

Yes I would be in that the very second it was available... but I just don't think it ever will be until legal status changes. I try and look for insurance every few months, and nothing so far. And I am unsure what we can do about asking for a change in legal status while we are such an overwhelmingly tiny minority...

CBR

Edited July 9, 2022 by Cerbera

[tech2zero]

I stumbled across Cycleplan for EUC insurance. I had a long chat with them about it and they explained to me that they would insure my EUC for public liability, but only on private land with owners permission etc. She explained that if I made a claim, or someone claimed against me and it was deemed I was on a UK road, then the insurance would NOT apply. However this little fact is actually in the small print and not in big bold words on the certificate so it may prove useful during a plod pull over...?

I also spoke with a friend who is a London barrister and he agreed that in front of a judge (if it came to that...), the fact that I had an insurance policy does show a level of responsibility and MAY offer some leniency... 

I should point out that I do not have this insurance policy yet because I'm still building up my competency before I start commuting, but I'm happy to burn £70 for the tiny peace-of-mind.

[Planemo]

It wont prove useful during a plod pull over. The situation with pev's is too mainstream for 99.9% of coppers not to know the current laws. And if your policy really does confuse one, a radio call to a traffic officer is minutes away and I guarantee you that a traffic officer will know traffic law inside out.

Re court, I doubt it will help there either. In fact, I suspect you would be better off pleading ignorance and apologising profusely than presenting an insurance document which they will simply view as you being well aware of the legal implications but tried to circumvent them, especially when any insurance company will make you very aware that it doesnt cover public road use (as yours did).

I dont mean to be the bearer of doom but its up to you if you want to throw £70 at it.

It really is a bum situation in the uk at the moment.

[Obee]

As I mentioned on another thread, I find the UK interest in insurance somewhat baffling. 

Insurance does nothing to decrease risk of injury and does nothing to lower the societal cost of damage and injuries.  The cost actually increases as the damage and injuries are still paid for by the customers and the salaries and real estate of the insurance company is added on top.  Plus profit of course. 

What they do do is spread the risk so one unfortunate person has their costs shared with others.  But you don't need an insurance company to do that. You could organize it yourself.  Get a bunch of people to put some money in a pot and then give it to someone who ends up needing it.  That's the essence of insurance, and being "self insured" is always an option. 

If you put the same money you would pay towards a policy in the bank, odds are eventually you will come out ahead.  If that weren't the case insurance companies wouldn't exist. 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Obee

[tech2zero]

Sadly, @Planemo I suspect you are correct, but I'm an idealist  

 

 

[nute]

On 7/4/2021 at 9:24 PM, NickNonsense said:

Form some kind of association that represents us as a group and starting pumping resources into it to lobby against the government. 

Otherwise we just going wait for the escooter trails to finish and be lumped in with them hopefully. 

There are people trying. There is the ESDF (electric scooter defence fund) who raised a chunk of money to get barristers opinion on finding any loopholes and who are now working on a response to the PACTS report. There is Ridables.org who have met with the govt and who have tried to leverage Halfords and Pure into the mix and who have been on BBC breakfast, GB news and umpteen radio stations. They had a stand at Fully Charged Live and were on one of the panels. There is electroheads who have done some great videos about how damn stupid the current situation is and the possible benefits of micomobility for the disabled. Ben fox is another YouTuber who has been creating videos about e-scooters.

All of these people speak to one another and coordinate their efforts but essentially they are all running on a shoestring or are self funded and when compared to the likes of Lime, Bird and others who have deep pockets and can afford to lobby govt its a bit of a thankless task trying to get their voices heard. 

The people running Ridables are the admins of big e-scooter and e-skate facebook groups with thousands of members and when ESDF were trying to raise money and it was publicised on the facebook groups it was depressing how few people actually felt strongly enough to donate a coupe of quid. 

HMRC figures show that as of earlier this year over a million e-scooters have been imported and sold in the UK. If it was possible to get past the apathy that could be a huge lobby group but unfortunately apathy is a difficult thing to get past. 

Electroheads with one of the rideables.org guys on micro mobility and disability - 

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by nute

[nute]

On 7/14/2022 at 6:45 PM, Obee said:

As I mentioned on another thread, I find the UK interest in insurance somewhat baffling. 

Insurance does nothing to decrease risk of injury and does nothing to lower the societal cost of damage and injuries.  The cost actually increases as the damage and injuries are still paid for by the customers and the salaries and real estate of the insurance company is added on top.  Plus profit of course. 

What they do do is spread the risk so one unfortunate person has their costs shared with others.  But you don't need an insurance company to do that. You could organize it yourself.  Get a bunch of people to put some money in a pot and then give it to someone who ends up needing it.  That's the essence of insurance, and being "self insured" is always an option. 

If you put the same money you would pay towards a policy in the bank, odds are eventually you will come out ahead.  If that weren't the case insurance companies wouldn't exist. 

 

 

Im fairly sure it is possible to self insure here but I think you need to have a big chunk of liquidity which is out of the reach of most mere mortals. 

One of the problems we have here is the nanny state and the nanny media. The concept of self responsibility is unfortunately foreign to a lot of my countrymen.