UK EUC insurance - anyone interested if it was offered?

[nute]

A group of us in the UK are speaking to an insurance agent who is in turn discussing issuing EUC insurance with an underwriter. They have already issued a few policies but have put things on hold whilst they try to agree on the details. The agent has asked me if i can give him an idea of numbers of potential customers for policies.

If a public liability policy was offered for say £70 a year how many UK riders would be interested in this?

If you would be could you please let me know below ... I have asked the same question on some facebook groups so if you have already responded elsewhere please don't do so twice.  A couple of us have also set up a UK not for profit company and a website to try to promote EUC use so if you want to be kept advised of progress you can register your email address at Rideables.org

[stephen]

53 minutes ago, nute said:

A group of us in the UK are speaking to an insurance agent who is in turn discussing issuing EUC insurance with an underwriter. They have already issued a few policies but have put things on hold whilst they try to agree on the details. The agent has asked me if i can give him an idea of numbers of potential customers for policies.

If a public liability policy was offered for say £70 a year how many UK riders would be interested in this?

If you would be could you please let me know below ... I have asked the same question on some facebook groups so if you have already responded elsewhere please don't do so twice.  A couple of us have also set up a UK not for profit company and a website to try to promote EUC use so if you want to be kept advised of progress you can register your email address at Rideables.org

Count me in 😊 and @PogArt Artur might want to also

[Guest PogArt Artur]

15 minutes ago, stephen said:

Count me in 😊 and @PogArt Artur might want to also

Yes, I'm defo in @nute .

I did register on rideables.org as well.

Thanks @stephen for mention my name

Edited May 18, 2019 by PogArt Artur

[Pengloong]

Yes, I am interested. Please count me in.

[rinzler]

This is a slippery slope. The law should adapt not the public be 'taxed' another way.  

If i ride on the pavement at walking pace then why should  have to keep paying insurance.  

Public liability would become open season on anything. Joggers run faster than some on scooters and the worst ones dont pay attention or care if people are 'in their way'. A bicycle electric or otherwise can go as fast as an euc (in an urban environment) so how comes they don't have to pay.

I would think it more beneficial to have a riding standard or something like that to ensure a level of skill and control is attained before public use happens. 

In ski resorts traffic in front of you has right of way. This stops people being reckless and also intimidating lower skilled/slower traffic. I dont mind this. It creates a code of conduct if you will.

This insurance route is like saying I'm gonna have a crash with someone. It doesn't resolve the issue of bad riders. Perhaps it might even encourage it a bit like body armour gives an artificial level of risk mitigation for the rider.

I wanted an euc for free, hassle free and eco friendly commuting. Not as a continuous money drain for a insurance companiesthat by their nature will actively seek ways to not pay out when needed.

With the high cost of eucs in thr first place this will definitely kill off the hobby here.  

I'd just go back to my kick scooter. Just as fun and none of the hassle.

[rinzler]

To add. I'm not saying @nute plans for enquiry are wrong. I applaud the pro active nature. I'm just saying that if you give someone an option to make money for nothing then no doubt they will take it.

My stance is that it is the law that needs to be modified first. 

[Planemo]

I would be interested, although I would be amazed if they would provide cover for an illegal vehicle.

I guess it might cover off-highway/private spaces. It may be that their clauses simply state cover is 'only provided for areas where the EUC is legally allowed to be used'. Which isn't many.

Pavements and roads would likely be off limits although your Lister Park may be OK in terms of protecting you from road traffic law. Whether the insurance would still cover you is another matter (most parks prohibit motorized vehicles).

[Guest PogArt Artur]

8 hours ago, rinzler said:

To add. I'm not saying @nute plans for enquiry are wrong. I applaud the pro active nature. I'm just saying that if you give someone an option to make money for nothing then no doubt they will take it.

My stance is that it is the law that needs to be modified first. 

I do agree to those points you've touched above @rinzler.

I'm unfortunately willing to apply for any insurance, that could cover my back, regarding the responsibility of accident happened - just in case.

I have no idea how jogging people, that bumping hardly the pedestrians getting away with that?

I don't know how cyclist on their fast racing bikes, getting away with any of accidental situations, crashes ?

All I know so far, the jogging people, cyclist or skateboarders are not chased by cops while enjoying their hobby,and then having their running shoes/bicycles taken away and issued fines for exercising in public.

It's only us, electric device's users, that are the target for prosecution?!

This is the only reason I'm very after to get insured.

I'm already feeling I'm breaching the law, put the unknown accident happen on top of that - and it'll make me feel like a criminal...

Apart of what I just have said, I'm agree to what you've said @rinzler.

We should be treated fair play, and given our rights to ride in public.

[Planemo]

True, the motoring laws simply apply to anything that can't be entirely powered by a human. As soon as you go motorized you are into the murky depths of motor vehicle law.

Electric bikes are right in the middle of all this. They are motorized, but MUST be able to be peddled, and the motor must not activate without peddling. If I am honest, given our nancy state, I am surprised we are allowed ebikes. I think the only reason we got them was because most (if not all?) of the EU accepted them so we were under a bit of pressure. Plus theres quite a large number of cyclists in the UK to help lobby for them.

This is why, although skateboards/roller skates/roller blades are also banned from our pavements, no one can be prosecuted under vehicle law because they are not motorized. You can still be issued a Sec59 warning though if using them anti-socially, which gives the police to seize should you be caught again. I suspect that this is what the average bobby would do with an EUC on the first occasion you get stopped (thereby using discretion), despite the fact they have every right to prosecute for no insurance/driving licence/tax (which is more likely if riding on the road, the bobby is having a bad day AND you are annoying people).

[Guest PogArt Artur]

17 minutes ago, Planemo said:

True, the motoring laws simply apply to anything that can't be entirely powered by a human. As soon as you go motorized you are into the murky depths of motor vehicle law.

Electric bikes are right in the middle of all this. They are motorized, but MUST be able to be peddled, and the motor must not activate without peddling. If I am honest, given our nancy state, I am surprised we are allowed ebikes. I think the only reason we got them was because most (if not all?) of the EU accepted them so we were under a bit of pressure. Plus theres quite a large number of cyclists in the UK to help lobby for them.

This is why, although skateboards/roller skates/roller blades are also banned from our pavements, no one can be prosecuted under vehicle law because they are not motorized. You can still be issued a Sec59 warning though if using them anti-socially, which gives the police to seize should you be caught again. I suspect that this is what the average bobby would do with an EUC on the first occasion you get stopped (thereby using discretion), despite the fact they have every right to prosecute for no insurance/driving licence/tax (which is more likely if riding on the road, the bobby is having a bad day AND you are annoying people).

Yeah...

Good thinking about the whole aspect @Planemo.

All I wish, I bet all of us?, is to go out in public, for whatever reason, and no looking out whether ther's cops around or not.

I'm commute daily for last three weeks.

The police cars passing me each day, and it's not pleasant feeling at all.

Imagine me going to work at 4:20 am, dark, quiet, no traffic no nobody...

Then the car's approaching from behind,I can hear the engine..., quick check over my shoulder - it's police ...

Do you know I mean?

If they'll decide stop me, then I'll be late to start my shift, my wheel will be probably seized, and how I carry on to the work place then... Walking for few remaining miles... or taxi...

This is what I'm experiencing on daily basis.

This is why I'm willing to get some insurance, whether it's fair or not compared to the other public users, to relief some stress off my shoulders, and give me little bit of hope, that in case of being stopped, it might help me to get away of prosecution?

 

[Planemo]

It is indeed a concern for me too Artur. Aside from any 3rd party injury liability, I would be gutted to lose £2k worth of wheel/s and I have to say, is one thing I have considered when/if it comes to getting another wheel. That's a lot of money for me.

I am not sure what the answer is. The easiest thing to do is create a law to allow ALL electric motorized transport on the highway up to say 15.5mph, irrespective of power. The issue then is, do they put a minimum wheel size on it? an electric skateboard or roller skates at that speed would be risky for sure on UK roads. So if minimum wheel size is going to be written into law, how do we decide on a size? What would be considered 'acceptable as safe'? There are probably numerous other considerations.

Laws are not easy to write because people will always try and find loopholes. They need to be specific, to the point and clear. This is why the current one was so well written despite the fact I hate it. It's a catch-all law that covers EVERYTHING that is mechanically propelled.

[Guest PogArt Artur]

33 minutes ago, Planemo said:

It is indeed a concern for me too Artur. Aside from any 3rd party injury liability, I would be gutted to lose £2k worth of wheel/s and I have to say, is one thing I have considered when/if it comes to getting another wheel. That's a lot of money for me.

I am not sure what the answer is. The easiest thing to do is create a law to allow ALL electric motorized transport on the highway up to say 15.5mph, irrespective of power. The issue then is, do they put a minimum wheel size on it? an electric skateboard or roller skates at that speed would be risky for sure on UK roads. So if minimum wheel size is going to be written into law, how do we decide on a size? What would be considered 'acceptable as safe'? There are probably numerous other considerations.

Laws are not easy to write because people will always try and find loopholes. They need to be specific, to the point and clear. This is why the current one was so well written despite the fact I hate it. It's a catch-all law that covers EVERYTHING that is mechanically propelled.

That's right...

To be honest it isn't first time I'm risking, and not following the law's path...

I used to keep tarantulas in Poland, and I still do over here - love is love

Once I saw a rattlesnake (in Poland) visiting one of my friends.

It was the amazed feeling, I could compare to EUC

You know it's amazing, and you want to have it whatsoever !

In Poland it's illegal to keep venomous snakes at home, to be more precise the tarantulas are banned to, as they are obviously venomous creatures too!

But with tarantulas you're most like with EUC's , and many people keep them in discretion, as we're using our EUC's in public

But venomous snakes are more like riding the motorcycle at daylight on busy public pavements Lol

So I had to use all connections I could, to get in touch to somebody, who agreed to help me get venomous snakes

I kept them (about 13 all together) home, until I came to UK in 2004

I'm sharing that story, just to point out, that the law is cruel, and if your passion, love and wishes to do something different, than the others do, you're banned, not allowed,and you putting your passion on risk...

I was breaching the Polish law by keeping the venomous snakes, I'm breaching the UK's law by riding EUC - am I criminal, or human being who lives the dreams?

[Planemo]

55 minutes ago, PogArt Artur said:

 

I was breaching the Polish law by keeping the venomous snakes, I'm breaching the UK's law by riding EUC - am I criminal, or human being who lives the dreams?

I totally get what you are saying Artur...living ones dreams.

The problem is that living ones dreams can put others at risk....your venomous pets....my EUC without insurance....which makes me selfish.

I don't like being selfish. It makes me uncomfortable because it's not my nature to only think of myself and only what I want to do. We live in a world with others. If I had my own island I wouldn't be having these thoughts!

Still, selfishness can be based on a sliding scale as with a lot of things. I have decided that using my EUC is very low on that scale compared to say drinking and driving.

Doesn't make what I am doing right though.

[Will R]

Definitely interested. Will sub for updates.

[Gasmantle]

I have to say that I agree with Rinzler on this one in that insurance could lead us down a slippery slope.

I'd need to know at the very least what the insurance was covering against and that I'd still be covered when carrying out what is still an illegal activity. My guess is it would be very difficult to get insurance to payout for injury to a third party or even oneself whilst knowingly performing an illegal activity. If the intention is to get yourself third part cover it's pretty much the same as asking an insurance company to cover you against injury to another person whilst drink driving, I'd ague that no insurance company worth a look at will insure a person who knowingly will break the law - effectively they'd be condoning illegal activity.

It may be possible to get insurance against theft or damage etc but I'd argue that is near worthless unless you leave your EUC unattended while out.

If the motive is to give yourself a feeling of 'legitamacy' when riding then I don't think insurance is the best way to achieve that. I'd say a change of law is needed first then by all means take out insurance, indeed it would make sense to introduce compulsory  insurance as part of the legalisation process. I'm by no means an expert in law but it would seem to me that voluntarily insuring yourself to carry out an illegal activity in the hope it eventually becomes legal isn't going to work.

The best route to a change of law is to ally with a network of electric cyclists, segway users etc then all lobby MP's or perhaps start an online petition. It needs a petition of 100,000 signatures to be heard in the house of commons which given the relatively small numbers of EV riders may be difficult to achieve at present but perhaps in another year or 2 may be a realistic target.

 

[Planemo]

14 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

 I'm by no means an expert in law but it would seem to me that voluntarily insuring yourself to carry out an illegal activity

It's exactly for this reason that I don't think we will get insurance in the first place. I believe insurers have to abide by rules that prevent selling insurance to a vehicle that is essentially un-insurable. It would effectively be selling 'snake oil'. Fraud if you like.

[Gasmantle]

13 minutes ago, Planemo said:

It's exactly for this reason that I don't think we will get insurance in the first place. I believe insurers have to abide by rules that prevent selling insurance to a vehicle that is essentially un-insurable. It would effectively be selling 'snake oil'. Fraud if you like.

Yea, I'm all for helping to get EUC riding legalised but from a realistic point of view I don't think voluntary insurance is viable.

Once you start insuring a vehicle you open up a can of worms - is the activity legal? is the vehicle roadworthy? is the person riding it competent to do so? how was the vehicle being ridden at the time of the incident?

It's almost worth making an anonymous phone call to one of the big insurance firms who say they'll insure pretty much anything and asking them for a quote - my guess they'll say they won't insure an unauthorised vehicle in public.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Gasmantle

[stephen]

There not insuring us to be on the road they are insuring  if you hit someone or damage there property ,your insured for fire and theft and liability insurance in case of an accident , it's not that we are pulling the wool over the insurance company they know it's an EUC they are trailing it atm to see if it's beneficial to them and see how many claims they get , it's another step forward and when people get asked if you have insurance by the police you can say yes and you've done everything possible until the pev thing is sorted out that's why they turn a blind eye atm , the insurance company is not saying they are legal they are saying if you have an accident,fire,or theft they will pay out that's how it's been discussed

[Planemo]

I get what you are saying Stephen, and IMO this could only be good news (3rd party liability insurance), I am just amazed that any insurer would offer it for a vehicle taking part in an illegal activity. I hope to be proved wrong

[Gasmantle]

17 minutes ago, stephen said:

There not insuring us to be on the road they are insuring  if you hit someone or damage there property 

I can see that Stephen but what I'm saying is I think it's highly unlikely any reputable insurer will allow you to take out third party cover knowing that you will be performing illegal activity.

Admittedly it may be possible to take out third party cover to cover against accidents on private land etc but to most of us thats likely to be very limiting.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Gasmantle

[stephen]

This is the policy for ninebot Z10

[rinzler]

Sounds good.  [The posted policy ]

I guess the main concern is public liability for which you have a good amount. 

I think my underlying  gripe with this is just having another expense to factor in.  I used to use a kick scooter to avoid the tube.  I justified that after several months the difference in rail card vs travel card would offset the expense of the scooter.  Moving to escooter and now euc still has the same rationale. So if i now have to fork out another £100 (you can bet yo ass that London will be more expensive) it negates the cost saving.  I might as well pay for a travel card and not worry about anything at all!

[Gasmantle]

Stephen,

I'm not convinced they'd payout other than if you were using the vehicle legally, it may be fine for cover on private land but I think the minute you made a claim for and incident on public land they'd say you aren't covered.

Insurers are careful with their wording, they won't explicitly say you aren't covered for illegal activity but I bet when you make a claim they will. Presumably in making a claim you would need police involvement and they will soon make it known that you were breaking the law.

[stephen]

14 minutes ago, rinzler said:

Sounds good.  [The posted policy ]

I guess the main concern is public liability for which you have a good amount. 

I think my underlying  gripe with this is just having another expense to factor in.  I used to use a kick scooter to avoid the tube.  I justified that after several months the difference in rail card vs travel card would offset the expense of the scooter.  Moving to escooter and now euc still has the same rationale. So if i now have to fork out another £100 (you can bet yo ass that London will be more expensive) it negates the cost saving.  I might as well pay for a travel card and not worry about anything at all!

For £69 for the year for that cover , fire and theft and public liability it's worth a gamble and at least I've tried if mr plod comes up and asks 😊👍 only time will tell cause there's plenty of people already who's took the insurance out , for me I've been riding over one year i ride everywhere roads pavement and trails and never once had a problem so far , fingers crossed 👍

[Guest PogArt Artur]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

I totally get what you are saying Artur...living ones dreams.

The problem is that living ones dreams can put others at risk....your venomous pets....my EUC without insurance....which makes me selfish.

I don't like being selfish. It makes me uncomfortable because it's not my nature to only think of myself and only what I want to do. We live in a world with others. If I had my own island I wouldn't be having these thoughts!

Still, selfishness can be based on a sliding scale as with a lot of things. I have decided that using my EUC is very low on that scale compared to say drinking and driving.

Doesn't make what I am doing right though.

I do agree !

I couldn't play for license to legally keep venomous snakes, so being desperate, and being connected with others venomous pets lovers, we all were carry on our dangerous hobby.

My point of the story, wasn't meant to show that I will do whatever I want - no matter what, but to point out, that we all would apply for licenses @Planemo - if we only could.

It was related to EUC's situation.

We all would do anything,that's necessary , to fulfill responsibilities of using it in public.

So my story was related to the point, where the law is breached, because people have no any other choices.

If we wouldn't want to put others on risk to get them harmed or get them injured, then we should let our EUC's off...

It's because we're making hazard in public, at every each time we going out.

Anything can happen.

We are unable to command the wheel to stop in place, when we fall off.

To me it doesn't matter if we compare it to any other bad behaviours, ...

We're rolling on devices that weighting much more than children,pets ...

Can it seriously harm rolling uncontrolled.,yes it can - in bad case scenario.

It's like riding the motorbike, but standing on the saddle

No holding on steering bar, no nothing ... free standing

Once you fell off the bike ... ... ... 

The risk is high, all the time.

This is only my personal thought, and unfortunately, I feel the same feeling, related to keeping venomous snakes in my story.

I'm the hazard, and I'm selfish, because I'm doing it, even I'm not supposed to.

So finishing my boring tale dear @Planemo  , I'll be so happy, if I could do anything I can, to show I'm responsible for the dreams I'm trying to live