Recommendation for a first wheel?

[travsformation]

8 hours ago, Sly said:

I’d love to but I haven’t even seen someone with a wheel in Belgium and all my friends are more making fun of the idea than supporting it. Anyone up for an initiation in Brussels?

Too bad! I'd gladly take a short vacation and let you learn on my V8, but I've apparently developed an addiction to wheeling that's doing an incredible job of emptying my wallet...  

As to your friends...the tables will be turning soon, believe me

9 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Take your time and do a bit of research and ask questions if you're unsure what you want.

I think that's the best single piece of advise you can get. I hadn't done enough research when I bought the IM V8; it's a great wheel, but not the best option for where I live (very hilly). Something with more torque and a bigger battery (hills massively reduce your range) would have been much better.

The other dilemma is money: Part of me thinks that for your first wheel, the cheapest is the best (so, V5F). Another part of me thinks that if you're going to spend 300€+ on a wheel, maybe it isn't a bad idea to spend a little extra so you don't outgrow it as quickly: in that regard, the KS14D has a more powerful motor  and larger battery, but I don't know if the difference justifies the nearly 3X price tag. The MCM5 is the more powerful of the three, but also the most expensive.

Otherwise, as a compromise, there's the MCM4. It'd be a middle ground somewhere in between the V5F and the KS14D, and costs 529€ here in Spain. Having said that, I haven't owned any of these wheels, so I can't vouch for any of them. Just thought I'd throw it into the mix as a possibility, and maybe others can contribute their opinions on whether it's a good option or not.

Then again, putting more options on the table might be the last thing you want right now...   Sorry...

[Mike Sacristan]

My recommendation is to get the V5F as long as you can get it for cheap. It's going to take a long time to get it from Gearbest though so take that into account.
The V5F will serve it's purpose for what you want to achieve for now and it will always continue to do so.
Even if you buy a bigger faster wheel in the future you will still have the V5F for your little last mile voyage, a quick run to the shop and so on.
Of course you will eventually end up with a bigger, heavier, faster wheel with more range but that will be a future project and using an 18XL or MSX for the last 1,5km is crazy overkill.

Best Regards from Stockholm

[meepmeepmayer]

12 hours ago, Sly said:

@meepmeepmayer The 2 videos make it hard to decide, but the V5 (not the V5+) at 300€ looks like a really good deal to start with. The KS14D is around 1k already. Is the difference worth 3 times the price?

There's the V5, V5F and V5F+ (not generally available in Europe) in order of increasing battery size. I would not buy a V5, the battery is so small, not only is the range too low, it is also unsafe in today's standards. Only buy a V5F (double the battery of the V5). It was 300 on 11.11., maybe it goes down on 12.12. again.

I don't think the 14D is worth 3 times the price. Either you start really cheap (for a EUC) with the V5F (a wheel that fulfills your original requirements really well) and you can always upgrade to a much bigger wheel in the future, nothing has been lost, the money is worth it even if it ends up just a learner and occasional secondary wheel. Or you go for a much bigger (more expensive) wheel right away. The 14D is in an uncomfortable sport, 1000€ is a lot of money but in the end you'll probably still outgrow it. Too much money for that.

(For an explanation, the standard European price for the V5F is around 650. There the upgrade to a 1000€ 14D makes sense, it is proportional. But it makes little sense if the V5F is 300 or 350.)

So I say, V5F or go big and get an MCM5 (on another level compared to the 14D or V5F) or a 16 or 18 incher of your choice.

2 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

My recommendation is to get the V5F as long as you can get it for cheap. It's going to take a long time to get it from Gearbest though so take that into account.
The V5F will serve it's purpose for what you want to achieve for now and it will always continue to do so.
Even if you buy a bigger faster wheel in the future you will still have the V5F for your little last mile voyage, a quick run to the shop and so on.
Of course you will eventually end up with a bigger, heavier, faster wheel with more range but that will be a future project and using an 18XL or MSX for the last 1,5km is crazy overkill.

Exactly this.

V5F now, and then you see what wheel you'll want in the future. It's hard to recommend anything else for the current Gearbest price of the V5F, since it matches your original idea of what you want in a wheel so well.

[Sly]

3 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

My recommendation is to get the V5F as long as you can get it for cheap. It's going to take a long time to get it from Gearbest though so take that into account.
The V5F will serve it's purpose for what you want to achieve for now and it will always continue to do so.
Even if you buy a bigger faster wheel in the future you will still have the V5F for your little last mile voyage, a quick run to the shop and so on.
Of course you will eventually end up with a bigger, heavier, faster wheel with more range but that will be a future project and using an 18XL or MSX for the last 1,5km is crazy overkill.

Best Regards from Stockholm

@Mike Sacristan Hello Mike and thank you for your straightforward advice.

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

There's the V5, V5F and V5F+ (not generally available in Europe) in order of increasing battery size. I would not buy a V5, the battery is so small, not only is the range too low, it is also unsafe in today's standards. Only buy a V5F (double the battery of the V5). It was 300 on 11.11., maybe it goes down on 12.12. again.

I don't think the 14D is worth 3 times the price. Either you start really cheap (for a EUC) with the V5F (a wheel that fulfills your original requirements really well) and you can always upgrade to a much bigger wheel in the future, nothing has been lost, the money is worth it even if it ends up just a learner and occasional secondary wheel. Or you go for a much bigger (more expensive) wheel right away. The 14D is in an uncomfortable sport, 1000€ is a lot of money but in the end you'll probably still outgrow it. Too much money for that.

(For an explanation, the standard European price for the V5F is around 650. There the upgrade to a 1000€ 14D makes sense, it is proportional. But it makes little sense if the V5F is 300 or 350.)

So I say, V5F or go big and get an MCM5 (on another level compared to the 14D or V5F) or a 16 or 18 incher of your choice.

Exactly this.

V5F now, and then you see what wheel you'll want in the future. It's hard to recommend anything else for the current Gearbest price of the V5F, since it matches your original idea of what you want in a wheel so well.

  @meepmeepmayer @Mike Sacristan @travsformation @gotmotion2016 @dieterGRAMS

I’m now looking at second hands wheel, what should I pay attention to? The mileage and what else? Knowing that I never rode one. I’ve found a V8 with 790kms. What do you reckon?

[Sly]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

There's the V5, V5F and V5F+ (not generally available in Europe) in order of increasing battery size. I would not buy a V5, the battery is so small, not only is the range too low, it is also unsafe in today's standards. Only buy a V5F (double the battery of the V5). It was 300 on 11.11., maybe it goes down on 12.12. again.

What is the "safe" standard nowadays?

[Mike Sacristan]

Looking at mileage and "usage" is sufficient. I bought a Ninebot E+ in the end of july and have done 730km on it. I have fallen a few times but it behaves 100% new.
Gearbest was selling V10 for around 700€ not too long ago. And V5f for 350€. The V8 would have to land somewhere in the middle of those prices. However shipping times for Gearbest and Aliexpress will take around 2 months now during holiday season.

When people are saying safe standard they are talking about a bigger, faster wheel and a power reserve to handle high speeds without accidental cutoffs when stressing the wheel. This won't apply to the usage scenario that you have described as you will be demanding much less of it.

People answering here are just trying to "look out for you" because they have been down the same road before and they have learned to "buy nice, don't buy twice".

Still... the voyage and the process can be as important as the goal. 

[meepmeepmayer]

24 minutes ago, Sly said:

I’m now looking at second hands wheel, what should I pay attention to? The mileage and what else? Knowing that I never rode one. I’ve found a V8 with 790kms. What do you reckon?

A used wheel shouldn't be totally banged up, indicating possibly some serious mechanical damage like bent metal parts of stripped screws from a heavy crash. And the battery shouldn't be neglected, unused for a long time or something like that.

Other than that, if it looks good, there's little that can go wrong if it works in the first place. EUCs are very simple machines. Actually, mileage doesn't tell much except for how worn you can expect the tire to be (but a tire can be replaced), and possibly the battery for very high mileages (like 5000km).

If it works and looks good, that's all you need to know.

What is the approximate price for the used V8?

21 minutes ago, Sly said:

What is the "safe" standard nowadays?

This is about the maximum current draw (and therefore power draw). Battery cells are arranged in blocks (of serially connected cells, to achieve a certain voltage), and the blocks are in parallel (more blocks to increase battery capacity at a given voltage). Max current grows with the number of parallel blocks (written as 1p, 2p, 3p, etc for 1, 2, 3, more blocks). Twice as much max current (power) draw on 2p as compared to 1p, and so on.

I wouldn't recommend 1p (like the V5) nowadays, too easily overpowered by a sharp acceleration, sudden bump, or at speed. It was acceptable when there was nothing better, but nowadays, at most it's ok for a super-light specialty wheel. 2p wheels (like the V5F or V8) are fine but the speed is limited and I wouldn't recommend one to a heavy rider (100+kg) to leave a good safety margin at any speed the wheel is capable of. Never heard of any problems with 3p or more (any battery >500Wh is going to be at least 3p).

[Mike Sacristan]

This brings us to the next question: what is the rider's weight?

My only objection the V5f is the sandpaper style grip tape.

If you are wearing a suit then you are wearing dress shoes. Grinding up the nice leather soles of your shoes is a sad thing indeed. 

[RockyTop]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

People answering here are just trying to "look out for you" because they have been down the same road before and they have learned to "buy nice, don't buy twice".

..................If you do buy nice some of us still buy twice, just twice as nice. 

The KS16s is a great wheel and powerful. Even as powerful as it is I started overpowering it after a month. (still a great wheel) After riding the more powerful wheels I am not sure I could ride a less powerful wheel without getting hurt. It is too easy for me to overpower by accident. 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

I would say the V8 is the top end for a light and sleek commuter wheel like specified in the first post. 16S and up is more substantial in price and weight.

@Sly By the way, if you are unsure what you want, your first intuition (or intuition in general) is often right. Wheel buying is a gut feeling thing as much it is about researching what exists.

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Wheel buying is a gut feeling thing as much it is about researching what exists.

I agree. Although the research part is important...if I'd done my research properly and asked around like you have, @Sly, I would have skipped the V8 and gone for something more powerful and with more range.

If I recall correctly, you said it's 1.5 km from car park to work, and 5 km from home to car park, right? If you do 15 km/h, you should be able to do the entire route in little under 1/2h (or 40' at 10 km/h). With the V5F, you'd be able to do the round trip on a single charge and still have about 50% battery left (Depending on your weight and how steep the hills are, of course). You might still be considering it only for the 1.5 km from car park to work...bu believe me, once you get the hang of riding, you're going to want to take it everywhere and every chance you get (I think the V5F is a good contender with a decent range for that).

But as others have already said, riding is a path and an evolution; there are use cases you won't consider until you've learned to ride and fallen in love with wheeling

(You did mention you wear a suit to work, didn't you?)

[Sly]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

A used wheel shouldn't be totally banged up, indicating possibly some serious mechanical damage like bent metal parts of stripped screws from a heavy crash. And the battery shouldn't be neglected, unused for a long time or something like that.

Other than that, if it looks good, there's little that can go wrong if it works in the first place. EUCs are very simple machines. Actually, mileage doesn't tell much except for how worn you can expect the tire to be (but a tire can be replaced), and possibly the battery for very high mileages (like 5000km).

If it works and looks good, that's all you need to know.

What is the approximate price for the used V8?

This is about the maximum current draw (and therefore power draw). Battery cells are arranged in blocks (of serially connected cells, to achieve a certain voltage), and the blocks are in parallel (more blocks to increase battery capacity at a given voltage). Max current grows with the number of parallel blocks (written as 1p, 2p, 3p, etc for 1, 2, 3, more blocks). Twice as much max current (power) draw on 2p as compared to 1p, and so on.

I wouldn't recommend 1p (like the V5) nowadays, too easily overpowered by a sharp acceleration, sudden bump, or at speed. It was acceptable when there was nothing better, but nowadays, at most it's ok for a super-light specialty wheel. 2p wheels (like the V5F or V8) are fine but the speed is limited and I wouldn't recommend one to a heavy rider (100+kg) to leave a good safety margin at any speed the wheel is capable of. Never heard of any problems with 3p or more (any battery >500Wh is going to be at least 3p).

4

@meepmeepmayer I think that I got it, this is what I’m looking for: safety. Maybe a noob thing but I’ve the feeling that the wheel could stop at any time... Probably due to my no-experience.

The price is 500€ for 790km but I would try to have it a bit under that. what do you think?

2 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

This brings us to the next question: what is the rider's weight?

My only objection the V5f is the sandpaper style grip tape.

If you are wearing a suit then you are wearing dress shoes. Grinding up the nice leather soles of your shoes is a sad thing indeed. 

@Mike Sacristan I weight 65kg add the weight of a good meal, clothes. laptop and stuff 75 I would say?

For the shoes you’re right.

[Mike Sacristan]

I weigh 68kg and can push my Ninebot One E+ around as hard as I like. If it wants to push me back it will. So I always feel safe on it.
The V8 is a good size and weight, has lights, trolly handle and everything you need.
Also if you can get it now then you have it now... instead of waiting 2 months.
500€ is a good price as long as it's in good condition.
Gearbest and Aliexpress have skewed prices so what was once a good deal is no longer a good deal and buying in Europe means paying a premium.

[meepmeepmayer]

54 minutes ago, Sly said:

@meepmeepmayer I think that I got it, this is what I’m looking for: safety. Maybe a noob thing but I’ve the feeling that the wheel could stop at any time... Probably due to my no-experience.

EUCs are self-balancing so any hardware/electronics failure means you faceplant. So your instinct is completely right. But current wheels don't just fail, no matter the manufacturer.

You either have a crash with a reason (like an obstacle you overlook), or (if you don't ignore the beeps and warnings) you'll be fine. For the theoretical/residual risk of a hardware failure and the real risk of a crash for some other reason, you should always wear wrist guards (no matter how slowly or short you ride) and knee guards plus a (full face) helmet if you're going faster.

59 minutes ago, Sly said:

The price is 500€ for 790km but I would try to have it a bit under that. what do you think?

Good price! Not high enough to seriously consider if you should spend your money otherwise, and you get a good wheel. As I said, the V8 is the top end for a wheel that can be considered light, so it's the best and safest "light" wheel. Your low weight will give you an extra safety margin (not that you need it, just never ignore any warning beeps or pedal tiltback). And you don't have to wait for a China import.

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Good price! Not high enough to seriously consider if you should spend your money otherwise, and you get a good wheel. As I said, the V8 is the top end for a wheel that can be considered light, so it's the best and safest "light" wheel. Your low weight will give you an extra safety margin

I can definitely vouch for that. It's an excellent wheel with plenty of margin for safety. I've put 350 km on mine so far and am thoroughly impressed with how well it's performed even up crazy hills, and have never had any safety issues even with an average riding speed of 20-25 km/h. It's not too heavy, the trolley works very well, the pedals are comfortable, the kill switch is a nice option to have, and it's an extremely manoeuvrable wheel--I've found it to have great handling even at very low speeds. As additional bonuses for Belgian weather, according to eWheels it's one of the most watertight wheels out there (I've ridden it in pouring rain with no issues), and the "mudguard" (not sure whether to call it that), despite how inconspicuous it is, works well, so you won't get your suit wet or muddy if you ride through a puddle. The extra power means it'll also take you much longer to outgrow than a V5F (you don't have to use that extra power if you don't want to, of course, but it also makes for extra safety margin).

Anyway, just my 2 cents on the V8--the one whee I can provide real-life info on. Hope it helps.

[Sly]

@travsformation it does help a lot. That was the first wheel I looked into but the price was high for a first wheel, second hand it’s better!

Is there anything someone could mess up with that I shouldn’t consider buying it? any fragile/weak part? I’ll try to go and see the wheel!

[travsformation]

2 hours ago, Sly said:

@travsformation it does help a lot. That was the first wheel I looked into but the price was high for a first wheel, second hand it’s better!

Is there anything someone could mess up with that I shouldn’t consider buying it? any fragile/weak part? I’ll try to go and see the wheel!

"Mechnically", it's a solid wheel and with the kms it has on it, I doubt it'll have any issues. If it did, it would have had to take a hard fall and the damage would be more than apparent. In terms of "hidden defects", I'd check the shell carefully for hair cracks; since it's glossy black, they can be easy to miss; the most vulnerable parts are around the trolley hand and the top and bottom edges. If it's been used off-road a lot, it's also worth taking a look at the rims for small dents and such, and spinning the tire with the wheel upside down to make sure there's no lateral wobble (bent rim from hitting a curb, etc.). The trolley handle is worth checking too, you don't want too much wobbling; it's sturdy, but I've heard of people (who have deactivated the kill switch) who pick the wheel up by the handle, which isn't great for it.

Aside from that...I guess the standard things to check as with any other wheel: that it turns on, that the battery indicator works, that it charges correctly (aspects that can be affected by water ingress due to riding in heavy rain), no rattling noises when in motion (you don't have to ride it, this can be tested by pushing it with the trolley at a fast walk, or pushing it down a curb). Pedals should be stiff when folded up; if they look scraped up, don't worry, that tends to be the case with all worn-in wheels...Maybe also worth finding out if the seller was using any kind of padding to protect it, or the Inmotion cover (which I strongly recommend buying if it doesn't come with one; it'll protect the wheel, and the padding makes it easier on your legs when learning).

And...can anyone think of anything else?

I tend to make myself check lists when buying second hand so I don't forget to ask anything. Also worth asking why they're selling, and maybe requesting a small demonstration. When you're buying your first wheel, all this might sound like a lot to check for, but you'll look for those details automatically for your second one

But in general, I wouldn't worry too much. People don't tend to sell their wheel because of defects, as serious electronic issues are hard to hide, and replacing a shell for appearance's sake before selling isn't cheap/particularly worth it (unless we're talking abut a 2K wheel...but correct me if I'm wrong, guys), but rather because they're upgrading (as opposed to collecting) and need the cash, or because they've collected enough wheels and decide to get rid of one the one they use the least (Upgraded from 14" to 16", then 18", and decided to keep the 14" for urban riding, the 18" for longer trips & offroad, and get rid of the 16"). In fact, I might consider selling my V8 when I get me new wheel, as I could use the extra money, but that'll depend on whether my partner decides she wants to learn.

In any case, the V8 is a sturdy and powerful wheel for its class with plenty of built-in safety mechanisms, so game-changing defects are unlikely; in my opinion, it's just the little stuff that's worth looking out for, and not so much because they're big problems, but because they're grounds for haggling for a lower price

 

[Sly]

Thank you so much man @travsformation

[Sly]

So I couldn't see the V8 and the guy doesn't reply any more and there is a Kingsong ks 16 680wh with 1500km for 650€.
What's best V8 or KS 16?

 

[RockyTop]

2 hours ago, Sly said:

So I couldn't see the V8 and the guy doesn't reply any more and there is a Kingsong ks 16 680wh with 1500km for 650€.
What's best V8 or KS 16?

 

   Given that it is a KS16 and not a KS16s  the KS16 should be a little better than a used V8.  That is with the little info that I have. If it were a KS16s with 840wh and 1200 watt motor the KS would be much better than the V8.  

I think that the older V8 was better quality than the new V8 ....... and the Newer KS are better quality than the old KS.    

[StyleTang]

On 11/30/2018 at 10:10 PM, travsformation said:

Smaller wheels are more maneuverable,  no doubt about it,

small wheel or low speed wheel could let user to understood what's  EUC？ how it works?   so i always let user buy low speed wheel(2nd Hand may bettter) and rided 200km or more range then consider high speed or high perforance wheel,  

if just buy KS18* as 1st wheel then high risk to damage user when ride under high speed, 

most user like speed and fly before user understand the consequence of over speed limitation.

[StyleTang]

5 hours ago, RockyTop said:

I think that the older V8 was better quality than the new V8 

do u have real case about this? or just heard from other rider?

[RockyTop]

3 hours ago, StyleTang said:

do u have real case about this? or just heard from other rider?

General observation. The older V8 seemed to have few problems. 

 Back in March I got two V8 new out of the box that would not turn on. Then you have the axle welds breaking. 

Then you have the V10f that catches on fire if you ride on a damp road. (WTF)

The company ignores emails and phone calls and cries we can't believe you are upset.

 

 

[travsformation]

4 hours ago, StyleTang said:

small wheel or low speed wheel could let user to understood what's  EUC？ how it works?   so i always let user buy low speed wheel(2nd Hand may bettter) and rided 200km or more range then consider high speed or high perforance wheel,  

if just buy KS18* as 1st wheel then high risk to damage user when ride under high speed, 

most user like speed and fly before user understand the consequence of over speed limitation.

Small wheels are easier to learn on. Extra speed is always a danger, there's always the risky stage when confidence is greater than skills, but that can happen the same (in my opinion) if you learn on a Ninebot E+ and later buy a KS16, or if you buy an IM V8 directly. But of course, it depends on the person more than on the wheel, in my opinion

1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

General observation. The older V8 seemed to have few problems. 

 Back in March I got two V8 new out of the box that would not turn on. Then you have the axle welds breaking. 

Then you have the V10f that catches on fire if you ride on a damp road. (WTF)

The company ignores emails and phone calls and cries we can't believe you are upset.

I can't comment on older V8's but mine has been impeccable since day 1. No problems with axles (I don't do crazy humps either though).

As to the V10F's water ingress fire issues, it's definitely bad rep for a company to release a wheel without proper QC. On the other hand, at least here in Europe, they recalled all units and offered free fixing (shipment costs paid by IM), or free shipmen of materials for users to fix it themselves, alongside a gurantee that wouldn't void the warranty.

I'm not an IM fanboy, just stating what I've heard, and based on my experience only, the V8 I bought 1 month ago and put 400km on has been absolutely problem-free

[meepmeepmayer]

35 minutes ago, travsformation said:

Small wheels are easier to learn on.

 No.

It's probably easier to learn on an msuper than a 14 incher (or the mten3) because the msuper is taller and that gives better leverage for your leg to push against the shell.

So it's not necessarily related to tire size, though a lower weight wheel will have some advantages of its own.

Unless by easy to learn you mean learning about the injuries that can happen (by crashing). Then a small (or rather slow) wheel is definitely easier on you.