Would a wheel like this prevent faceplants?

[Aneta]

Just now, xorbe said:

Sometimes a failure causes the wheel to "lock up".  The other system wouldn't overcome this.  Wow am highly surprised that there's a wheel with dual system already, you got me there.

Well, if there's a phase wire short in one of the subsystems, it's like it's at full-stop brake power. This will present a very high load on the second subsystem, but hopefully, this split-second struggle between motors will give at least some time for the rider to prepare for run-out or impact, vs. ZERO time if any current EUC completely shuts down. The difference between 0.5s forewarning before faceplant and 0.0s could be life and death (or tube-fed "vegetable" for the rest of one's life).

[Bob Eisenman]

52 minutes ago, Aneta said:

all-eggs-in-one-basket

While not fitting your defined topic..

My Monster , not a fun favorite for many, has rolled a long way....no cutouts...beefy motor....1600 WHr...84 volt...heavy....$1300 for batteries ($650 x2)

My Ninebot.....the opposite...mud guard not required..kinda squirrelish in comparison to Monster....different points of rotation in legs..ankles..hips...a different ride...lots of miles on it...

But....the EUC...while fun....tends not to win approval in my neck of the woods... where cars dominate and mopeds and motorcycles win in Sumner.

Next best looks to be a beefy ebike like a 'Radpower'.

https://www.radpowerbikes.com/pages/ebikes?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9fntBRCGARIsAGjFq5F1MhYBeSGPL6OQ0RSVdCT16cJ96Z3bB3aq2Qv8NMuQ3I68_zbLBnMaAhaOEALw_wcB&utm_campaign=Brand_Google_US_age-all_newengen_ME1&utm_source=AdWords

 

@LanghamPrides an ebike

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Bob Eisenman

[atdlzpae]

@Aneta @xorbe Actually, your idea is doable! And it would barely make the wheel heavier at all!

It would be required to wind up the motor as two independent motors. 3 wires from one side, 3 wires from the other side. With two sets of coils in one housing.
One half of the motor gives 1000W, for a total of 2000W.
Two independent motherboards, each with it's own IMU. And with a dedicated battery.

Both motherboards communicate with each other via a UART or SPI or whatever. If one of them fails for whatever reason (battery, cables, mosfet, etc.), the other one knows about the failure in 1ms and warns the rider "Please slow down!".

And the user would be able to still ride home on one motor, albeit with only half of the motor (1000W).

 

7 minutes ago, Bob Eisenman said:

@LanghamPrides an ebike

Edited November 4, 2019 by atdlzpae

[Aneta]

5 minutes ago, Bob Eisenman said:

While not fitting your defined topic..

My Monster , not a fun favorite for many, has rolled a long way....no cutouts...beefy motor....1600 WHr...84 volt...heavy....$1300 for batteries ($650 x2)

My Ninebot.....the opposite...mud guard not required..kinda squirrelish in comparison to Monster....different points of rotation in legs..ankles..hips...a different ride...lots of miles on it...

But....the EUC...while fun....tends not to win approval in my neck of the woods... where cars dominate and mopeds and motorcycles win in Sumner.

Next best looks to be a beefy ebike like a 'Radworks'.

@LanghamPrides an ebike

 

Well, it's just one data point. It's like a Cessna pilot saying that he never experienced engine-out. Yet statistics show that engine-outs do happen, often with lethal consequences. (ref. NTSB accident database) This is the reason that no commercial cross-Atlantic planes have one engine. In fact, airplanes have backups for most crucial components. We with EUCs don't have any backup, any plan "B".

[Bob Eisenman]

11 minutes ago, Aneta said:

engine-outs do happen,

One could say that the recent  B17 crash supports the 3 out of 4 engines were not enough power thought...

http://www.aviationmuseum.eu/World/North_America/USA/Massachusetts/Stow/gallery.htm

Dual redundant MBs powering one motor and splitting the amperage output load sounds plausible but I've read that Kingsong protects the motor with a fuse so in a sense redundant MBs might not be feasible from a motor protection point of view.

While tits up (flight attitude) might be a nightmare for a pilot it is the preferred anatomic orientation for an euc rider.

[Aneta]

7 minutes ago, Bob Eisenman said:

One could say that the recent  B17 crash supports the 3 out of 4 engines were not enough power thought...

http://www.aviationmuseum.eu/World/North_America/USA/Massachusetts/Stow/gallery.htm

Dual redundant MBs powering one motor and splitting the amperage output load sounds plausible but I've read that Kingsong protects the motor with a fuse so in a sense redundant MBs might not be feasible from a motor protection point of view.

While tits up (flight attitude) might be a nightmare for a pilot it is the preferred anatomic orientation for an euc rider.

Well, a fuse on an EUC is as dumb as receiving an email from manufacturer, "congrats, you saved $200 by not burning your controller, thanks to the fuse!" as you're opening an envelope from the hospital with a $200,000 bill for bringing you back to life. "Great, I can now plug in a new $2 fuse and ride again!"

[Bob Eisenman]

41 minutes ago, Bob Eisenman said:

@LanghamPrides an ebike

I like the idea of ebikes 

Two long rides ago on the Monster several 'packs' of color coordinated regular bike rider's were  using my route in the opposite direction. The lead riders and I seemed equally fascinated by each other's speed and interests.

[Bob Eisenman]

@Anetageared turbodans seem to be making a go of it despite uneven cool down patterns resulting in longer startup times.

What about a geared EUC?🤔

[Bob Eisenman]

39 minutes ago, Aneta said:

plan "B".

I spent some time in the health care work environment. Plan B in women's health care connotes something with an essentially destructive outcome.

[atdlzpae]

4 minutes ago, Aneta said:

Well, a fuse on an EUC is as dumb as receiving an email from manufacturer, "congrats, you saved $200 by not burning your controller, thanks to the fuse!" as you're opening an envelope from the hospital with a $200,000 bill for bringing you back to life. "Great, I can now plug in a new $2 fuse and ride again!"

On KS16S it's even dumber - the fuses protect batteries. If you have only one battery, you can blow the fuse on the incline.

1 minute ago, Bob Eisenman said:

What about a geared EUC?🤔

Is there any advantage to using gears? I can't think of any from the top of my head.

[Bob Eisenman]

1 minute ago, atdlzpae said:

Is there any advantage to using gears

Only if the undesigned concept of perhaps a hi and lo gear were feasible

[Aneta]

4 minutes ago, Bob Eisenman said:

@Anetageared turbodans seem to be making a go of it despite uneven cool down patterns resulting in longer startup times.

What about a geared EUC?🤔

Geared BLDC motors have been used in EUCs before, see some older Rockwheel models. While they have insane torque, they introduce another failure point - gears. Gears for ebike motors are typically made of nylon, which for us is not reliable enough, broken teeth in the gears will be matched with broken teeth in rider's mouth.

[Bob Eisenman]

10 minutes ago, atdlzpae said:

you're opening an envelope from the hospital

Having taken one EUC related trip to the hospital on state funded insurance I now get envelopes asking for donations to the hospital frequently.

Above age 65 in my state the free health care funding ends. Riding without health insurance is both risky monetarily as well as 'illegal' in terms of mandated requirements by the state to carry health insurance...pending income tax penalties for failing to buy the insurance

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Bob Eisenman

[Bob Eisenman]

EUC activities aside...last night at 3:00 am a female Tennant two floors below had summoned assistance. The 74 year old woman's request was met by a fire engine, a Police cruiser and an ambulance. The responders needed to break the door to gain entrance to a two apartment hallway. As they escorted her away , the second time in a few weeks, the disheveled woman said ' oh my God' but wasn't in any other physical distress.

Official responses for health care costs money.....

[Bob Eisenman]

My long ride of 32 miles on Sunday involved riding a 4 mile stretch of old RR plus a wildlife preserve. Hunting season for pheasant had dissuaded me from taking this route a few days before as one Hunter wearing hunters orange walked the trail with two dogs, each wearing collar bells.

So....I took the trail in the opposite direction on Sunday. Nearing the end of the wildlife preserve trail a thirty ish year old looking woman walking two dogs appeared. The quiet Monster did not come to her attention until I was twenty feet or so behind. 

She turned....chuckled at the silly appearance of an EUC rider and looked at one of her (confused looking) dogs , saying (almost laughing)  'What is that' as I rolled by with about 25 miles yet to go on my ride.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Bob Eisenman

[Vik3]

10 hours ago, Aneta said:

How about IPS S5 with two independent motors (with common rim/tire), two independent controllers, and two independent batteries? If one subsystem goes tits up, the other will still carry on. At least, the rider  will realize that one motor went dead and stop safely.

The weight is about 15kg is more or less acceptable, but claimed wattage 500W and capacity 500Wh are 4 times less then on big EUC. Electricity cut off happens pretty rarely, and normally something is melted or burned in motor at maximum power like fast hill climbing. If one motor failed it will instantly catch nosedive.  I am afraid the rider will realize this laying on the road only.

As I was advised earlier  400-500W will lead to inevitable crash on the fist bump. What I suggest is a plan “B” for light low power EUC.

The only problem to me is that I can not get clear feedback about seated ridding. All riders I talked have thousands of kilometers of standing riding, but had just tried seated riding for a few minutes sitting on folded coat above EUC, and decided that this is not safe, aimless and stupid. Some internet guys think different, some of them say that seated riding requares several days of training and after that they are very happy with it  :

 

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Vik3

[mrelwood]

Back on the topic of EUC safety, while dual-everything could offer additional safety marginal in case of a hardware failure, from all the faceplants I’ve read about, excluding the rapidly fixed 1st batch issues of the Nikola, I don’t think any of them was caused by a hardware failure on an EUC designed within the last 2 years.

If you purchase an unused such wheel, I think someone already checked that an EUC hardware failure is less likely than crashing while travelling in a car. In my books the priority for increasing the safety is no longer very high. It is important, of course, but it’s not an issue that causes harm to a lot of EUC riders.

2 hours ago, atdlzpae said:

On KS16S it's even dumber - the fuses protect batteries. If you have only one battery, you can blow the fuse on the incline.

Same goes for the 16S fuses. On a 16B (or was it 16C) the amperage headroom is quite low, as is the wheel’s power, so extremely aggressive riding can indeed blow a fuse.

But improving the fuses, mainboards or anything else, does absolutely nothing to the nearly sole reason for faceplants: user failure.

The limits of an EUC are not all that obvious to all riders, and the magical feeling of riding one can in time fool one’s reasoning enough to cause making a very stupid decision while riding. Such as speeding past 35mph after removing the available safety features from a Gotway, pushing the tiltback at top speed, or accelerating rapidly or very heavily when already going fast.

Fix those user errors and you prevent 99% of future faceplants, and the EUC becomes one of the safest methods of transport available.

[mrelwood]

@Vik3, I'll try to explain in more detail.

46 minutes ago, Vik3 said:

Electricity cut off happens pretty rarely, and normally something is melted or burned in motor at maximum power like fast hill climbing. If one motor failed it will instantly catch nosedive.

Easily the most common part of the EUC to give up is the amount power that is required to balance. The wheel will fall forward because either the battery, the motor, or the motor controller design doesn't have enough power to keep the pedals straight. This is called an overlean, exceeding the power capabilities of a self-balancing vehicle. In low speed but high stress conditions the wheel rarely lacks the power to keep the pedals straight, but the amperage can be higher, and the reduced airflow makes the external cooling less effective. In a worst case scenario this can cause the cables and the mainboard to heat up, which can cause the wire insulation to melt causing a short, or the power Mosfets to blow. All EUCs have safety mechanisms to force the rider to stop once the mainboard temperature gets too high, but the cables and the Mosfets heat up much faster than the distant temperature probe will register, making it helpful only for steady and sustained inclines.

46 minutes ago, Vik3 said:

As I was advised earlier  400-500W will lead to inevitable crash on the fist bump.

Not inevitable, but much more probable. A 500W wheel might be fine for a 70kg rider cruising peacefully under 17km/h. But adding a heavier rider or more speed, the power requirements for the wheel increase very rapidly.

46 minutes ago, Vik3 said:

The only problem to me is that I can not get clear feedback about seated ridding.

Let me try to fix that. As the video you linked to shows, seated riding can work great when going straight. But at lower speeds the wheel is steered by tilting the wheel to the side you're turning to. While standing you can just shift weight to the other foot and let the wheel tilt between your legs, but while sitting you can only tilt very little. So it's like riding a bicycle that you can only turn the handlebar for an inch or two. No problem on the straights, but slaloming slowly between pedestrians at walking speed is quite difficult. Braking fast is also a slower since when sitting, you have a lot less space to move your center of gravity. There might be techniques to help with that, but it's never going to stop as fast in an emergency situation as with standing.

Another aspect is the structural design of the EUC. The shell is only held in place by 6 screws on the bottom of each side that fasten the plastic shell to the pedal brackets. Besides the tire, the wheel offers zero suspension or shock absorbing. The plastic is already having a hard time carrying 4 times the weight it was designed to, and each bump will increase the weight load at the very small area at the bottom of the shell. Some wheel manufactures have even mentioned that sitting is not recommended, especially for certain models.

I hope that cleared things up.

 

[Aneta]

16 hours ago, Vik3 said:

The only problem to me is that I can not get clear feedback about seated ridding. All riders I talked have thousands of kilometers of standing riding, but had just tried seated riding for a few minutes sitting on folded coat above EUC, and decided that this is not safe, aimless and stupid. Some internet guys think different, some of them say that seated riding requares several days of training and after that they are very happy with it  :

Has it ever happened that the shell attachments to pedal posts broke due to putting much heavier load on them? Putting extra 100kg on several screws in plastic... that's just sketchy. If the plastic instantly cracks and the shell tilts forward or backward suddenly, that will send a sudden high acceleration or brake signal (by the gyro) to the motor, which can either throw rider off the wheel, or "overlean" (overpower) the controller/battery. Curious if riders who do seated riding realize this danger, or they just don't think?

Another aspect is the structural design of the EUC. The shell is only held in place by 6 screws on the bottom of each side that fasten the plastic shell to the pedal brackets. Besides the tire, the wheel offers zero suspension or shock absorbing. The plastic is already having a hard time carrying 4 times the weight it was designed to, and each bump will increase the weight load at the very small area at the bottom of the shell. Some wheel manufactures have even mentioned that sitting is not recommended, especially for certain models.

Oops, typed my concern before seeing that it has been already expressed.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Aneta

[Vik3]

9 hours ago, mrelwood said:

No problem on the straights, but slaloming slowly between pedestrians at walking speed is quite difficult.

 

On the video below the guy is slaloming between pedestrians at speeds up to 40kmh:

just  yesterday I was slaloming between pedestrians on 3km long 2m wide asphalt road to Church on my ebike with small balancing safety wheels at speeds down to zero – I did not make a single touch to road with my feet, I just pushed left or right safety wheel as needed, which  have one inch gap above the road.

I also passed 20km by icy road at 18-22kmh with no problems:

 

You are both talking about EUC material strength, but I think this is not a big problem to my concept at this stage . Thank you for feedback 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Vik3

[mrelwood]

17 hours ago, Vik3 said:

On the video below the guy is slaloming between pedestrians at speeds up to 40kmh:

Yes, and with great skill. But not much below 20km/h. I do admit that Houseofjob is extremely talented riding seated. I haven’t seen anyone else carve that sharply.

But under 20km/h, and especially near walking speeds I have yet to see anyone riding seated in a way even you could call controlled, relaxed, or safe. Riding slow even when standing is an advanced skill that is learned at a later stage. Seated is even harder since the ”handlebar” doesn’t turn very much. By slaloming between pedestrians I didn’t mean on a straight bicycle lane at 25km/h, but in a crowd of people, where one tries to find a way through while going 3km/h.

Again, think what would happen if one of the safety wheels at the front of the EUC would touch the ground when doing a sharp carve like the rider did a few times in the video. Suddenly in the middle of a sharp turn the wheel would go straight instead of turning. Instant loss of balance and crashing to the ground.

Quote

yesterday I was slaloming between pedestrians on 3km long 2m wide asphalt road to Church on my ebike with small balancing safety wheels at speeds down to zero – I did not make a single touch to road with my feet, I just pushed left or right safety wheel as needed

Great, you did that with FOUR wheels. Now remove the ”safety” tires and ride without touching the handlebar. That might be the closest you can get to the control of seated riding an EUC without actually using an EUC. Can you say that you’d be a safe rider in a crowd of people riding like that?

It’s perfectly understandable that you have absolutely zero concept on how, why or where to ride an EUC. But when people with years of experience in riding, teaching, repairing and modifying them tell you that you have a wrong idea about how they function, you might want to listen a bit more closely. Skipping the understanding about how the vehicle is even ridden takes away all possibility for you to invent.

You can’t expect others to prove that your wild ideas wouldn’t work, instead you should prove that your own concepts are correct. You have skipped the groundwork alltogether instead.

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by mrelwood

[Vik3]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

Again, think what would happen if one of the safety wheels at the front of the EUC would touch the ground when doing a sharp carve like the rider did a few times in the video. Suddenly in the middle of a sharp turn the wheel would go straight instead of turning. Instant loss of balance and crashing to the ground.

 

you might want to listen a bit more closely. Skipping the understanding about how the vehicle is even ridden takes away all possibility for you to invent.

 

 

Again, think what would happen if one of the safety wheels at the front of the EUC would touch the ground when doing a sharp carve like the rider did a few times in the video. Suddenly in the middle of a sharp turn the wheel would go straight instead of turning. Instant loss of balance and crashing to the ground. - Nothing wrong would happened because the wheels are installed on balancing bar on hinge in the middle, and normally they both are kept one inch above the road at any turns without touching the road . If balance is lost one of them is coming in play, but since they are self steering ( like at computer 5 wheels chair) it does not change needed EUC direction, just providing additional thrust to keep balance.

 

you might want to listen a bit more closely. Skipping the understanding about how the vehicle is even ridden takes away all possibility for you to invent. - I understood that seated riding is more difficult, but I hope it depends on training, and also hope that seated riding with safety wheels will make it much  safer for certain aim riding, and will cover all shortages 

[atdlzpae]

1 hour ago, Vik3 said:

I understood that seated riding is more difficult, but I hope it depends on training

Seated is more difficult, period. Just like juggling 4 balls is more difficult than 3. You may be good at juggling 4, but you'll always be better with 3.

1 hour ago, Vik3 said:

seated riding with safety wheels will make it much  safer for certain aim riding, and will cover all shortages

No. I hate to repeat myself... An additional wheel will not help at all. Every time the it hits the pavement you're gonna crash anyway.

Go buy a unicycle to understand the physics. You're like a person who didn't play KSP and who claims that the fastest way between planets is in a straight line.

[Vik3]

31 minutes ago, atdlzpae said:

An additional wheel will not help at all. Every time the it hits the pavement you're gonna crash anyway.

 

"Every"...."anyway" ??? Looks like you have never used additional wheels, but you are so strongly confident in this. I use. The young boy in above video hits the pavement by his feet many times and no a single crash, on contrary this helps him to keep balance at low speeds 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Vik3

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, Vik3 said:

 - Nothing wrong would happened because the wheels are installed on balancing bar on hinge in the middle, and normally they both are kept one inch above the road at any turns without touching the road . If balance is lost one of them is coming in play, but since they are self steering ( like at computer 5 wheels chair) it does not change needed EUC direction, just providing additional thrust to keep balance.

Ok, so just a single wheel at the front, in the center of the EUC. Have you calculated how high off the ground the wheel would have to be when the EUC is stationary, to allow for acceleration while carving on a soft mode on rough ground or slopes?

Another brain tease: Imagine you are trying to stand in a subway car with your hands free when the subway starts to accelerate. You’re doing good as you lean forward and are allowably proud of yourself, when the subway suddenly loses power and stops accelerating. What happens to your balance and position?

Xtra points question: How does this relate to the topic at hand?

2 hours ago, Vik3 said:

also hope that seated riding with safety wheels will make it much  safer for certain aim riding, and will cover all shortages 

Such as shortages in power, range, and fun that you’d get from a 5-year old EUC?