Funky Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 Sup. So it's getting kind of cold out there.. Lowest it has been right now was -28C (-18F). Anyone else ridding in that kind of cold? And how are your wheels holding up? Any problems? Luckily my commute is short around 5-10 mins ridding and 5-10 mins standing at train station. Here's a question - should i worry about my wheel? Can it get damaged being 20-30 minutes in that cold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punxatawneyjoe Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 Not nearly that temp today but i have ridden in -5f or so and had no problems, i would say let the EUC warm up before trying to charge it which shouldn't be a problem for you since you charge every 3 days or so. It's only about 20f today but sadly i have only street tires on my wheels atm... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 (edited) 11 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said: Not nearly that temp today but i have ridden in -5f or so and had no problems, i would say let the EUC warm up before trying to charge it which shouldn't be a problem for you since you charge every 3 days or so. It's only about 20f today but sadly i have only street tires on my wheels atm... I charge mine every second week. So it's 2 times a month. Not a problem at all. I normally do it on the seventh day of week. So wheel was sitting in room temp at least 2 days before charging. I have DIY studded tire on mine. Edited January 8 by Funky 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewheelkoregro Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 17 hours ago, Funky said: I charge mine every second week. So it's 2 times a month. Not a problem at all. I normally do it on the seventh day of week. So wheel was sitting in room temp at least 2 days before charging. I have DIY studded tire on mine. Can you share how you did that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 (edited) 44 minutes ago, onewheelkoregro said: Can you share how you did that? One option is you drill small hole for the tire stud to sit into. Not true whole tire.. Only little bit so you have space for the stud to sit in. Or have a tire which has some kind of "holes" already in the tire tread. Luckily my K66 had already some holes - i simply pushed the studs into them. (You can check the K66 tire and you can see small "c" or ">" slots in the tread. I simply put the studs into them.) Now i got 2 K66 tires one summer, one winter. Same thing @jjll did with his K66. I only put my studs into the smaller holes. Didn't put any in big ones. (Image isn't my tire.) Edited January 8 by Funky 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterwheel Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 My wheel is my commute so I ride no matter how cold it is. -26c this morning. Looking at about -35c for my ride in to work on Friday morning if the forecast stays as it is. Commute isn't super long though, 6k only. And virtually no snow so far this year, so it feels a bit like cheating compared to normal years. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterwheel Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 On 1/7/2024 at 1:56 PM, Funky said: Here's a question - should i worry about my wheel? Can it get damaged being 20-30 minutes in that cold? There are several of us that ride out in those temps, no issues with wheels aside from lack of range. I start with my wheel indoors and end with it indoors. Generally we just ensure we don't leave our wheels outdoors when not riding them in extreme cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterwheel Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 22 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said: It's only about 20f today but sadly i have only street tires on my wheels atm... I ride street tires in the winter, always have (this being winter #7). I wear studded boots so that I can get on and off the wheel if I happen to stop in snow or on ice. Main point is to drop the pressure a bit; being a heavier rider probably helps me. We have had people do studded tires here; for the most part they've preferred riding without them. I personally have never tried a studded tire them so I can't comment on that part of it. Also, FWIW, I do *not* use power pads. I feel like being locked in to the wheel in winter conditions is likely counterproductive and maybe even dangerous. Edited January 8 by winterwheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKW Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) I've done food delivery on my Sherman Max in -12F (-24.4C) (not including windchill) for hours on end before. No issues. The only thing I've noticed was the digits on the screen were sluggish at times, but nothing that affected the EUC from what I noticed. Edited January 8 by BKW 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 6 hours ago, winterwheel said: We have had people do studded tires here; for the most part they've preferred riding without them. I personally have never tried a studded tire them so I can't comment on that part of it. Riding on ice becomes like it would be asphalt in summer. No sliding at all - even when turning. Love studs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) Could someone please explain / remind me why it's apparently fine to be riding in -28C etc when we are warned not to charge at anything much under 5 degrees C, and definitely not below freezing ? I think i am struggling to understand why electrons (or whatever) can go one way but not the other in the cold ! I dimly recall something about the risk of dendrites but remain confused that they only happen during charging and not during riding... Edited January 9 by Cerbera 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 (edited) 4 hours ago, Cerbera said: Could someone please explain / remind me why it's apparently fine to be riding in -28C etc when we are warned not to charge at anything much under 5 degrees C, and definitely not below freezing ? I think i am struggling to understand why electrons (or whatever) can go one way but not the other in the cold ! I dimly recall something about the risk of dendrites but remain confused that they only happen during charging and not during riding... Same thing as loosing range at cold temp.. Meaning you can still take from the battery, but can't really put anything in. The cold "shrink" battery - the capacity. And forcefully trying to put charge back in may damage the battery. (Joking/guessing here.. Idk really anything about this.) Edited January 9 by Funky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterwheel Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 16 hours ago, Funky said: Riding on ice becomes like it would be asphalt in summer. No sliding at all - even when turning. Love studs! I need an ice wheel I guess for those days when ice is really hardcore. I'm happy with what I have for most winter days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterwheel Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 15 hours ago, Cerbera said: Could someone please explain / remind me why it's apparently fine to be riding in -28C etc when we are warned not to charge at anything much under 5 degrees C, and definitely not below freezing ? I think i am struggling to understand why electrons (or whatever) can go one way but not the other in the cold ! I dimly recall something about the risk of dendrites but remain confused that they only happen during charging and not during riding... When you're riding and the batteries are working hard, they don't really get that cold. It's when you stop and let the internals get cold that you run into problems. Or super cold days with long rides at higher speeds might also have problems, I keep an eye on the temperature of the wheel and would stop riding if it looked like it was dropping to an unsafe temperature. Last winter I was on an S-18 and found that I had to put a plastic bag over it on really cold days to prevent the internals from getting too cold and kicking me off the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 On 1/9/2024 at 10:15 PM, winterwheel said: When you're riding and the batteries are working hard, they don't really get that cold. It's when you stop and let the internals get cold that you run into problems. Or super cold days with long rides at higher speeds might also have problems, I keep an eye on the temperature of the wheel and would stop riding if it looked like it was dropping to an unsafe temperature. Last winter I was on an S-18 and found that I had to put a plastic bag over it on really cold days to prevent the internals from getting too cold and kicking me off the wheel. But it's not true, on wheels with temp sensors on batteries we can see 0c or lower when riding in cold weather, for example I see this regularly on my S22 while cruising in -10c or lower outdoor temperature and the sensors on the S22 are placed right on the cells themselves, now the question is how warm the cell is on the inside, we don't know, maybe it can be measured due to internal resistance or something. With modern wheels having metal battery boxes which are separated from the controller housing they get colder much faster also. If cells actually freezes than regen braking can cause plating to happen. I think about this a lot of drive much more carefully once my battery temps are around 0c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKW Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 What are some worst case scenarios that can happen when riding in very cold temperatures on your EUC? Will it cut out? Will it damage the battery? Etc. I ask because I will be riding in cold temps for extended times this winter. Last thing I want is for my EUC to cut out unexpectedly due to freezing temps and me die in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, BKW said: What are some worst case scenarios that can happen when riding in very cold temperatures on your EUC? Will it cut out? Will it damage the battery? Etc. I ask because I will be riding in cold temps for extended times this winter. Last thing I want is for my EUC to cut out unexpectedly due to freezing temps and me die in the process. You have to consider voltage sag which is considerable higher during cold, if you push too hard and don't consider that you could potentially overlean the wheel. Other than that like I speculated above regen from braking can lead to battery damage due to plating which happens below freezing temps but we don't know for sure the temperature inside the cells. Oh and higher risk of bearings going bust. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brahan Seer Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, BKW said: What are some worst case scenarios that can happen when riding in very cold temperatures on your EUC? Will it cut out? Will it damage the battery? Etc. General consensus is Lithium Ion batteries can perform between -4ºF and 130ºF but using them at the extremes of temperature will reduce longevity and will be more sluggish but shouldn't just cut out on you unexpectedly. Certainly need to be more cautious/ gentle as already stated above. Charging is between 32ºF and 114ºF bare in mind as you ride the wheel the batteries will produce heat due to the chemical reactions taking place but I don't know by how much and how the external temperature will impact this. As already stated Lithium plating is a problem when trying to charge below freezing and this results in dendrite formation and potential short circuit issues. The specification and type of lithium ion battery will also have a big impact on these figures so the above is a general rule of thumb. Sources: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1002007118307536 https://www.fortresspower.com/ideal-operating-temperatures-for-lithium-batteries/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 2 hours ago, Rawnei said: You have to consider voltage sag which is considerable higher during cold, if you push too hard and don't consider that you could potentially overlean the wheel. But wheel would alarm the rider of low voltage? Right? Or not? Because i almost never monitor my wheel stats.. (At least haven't looked at voltage..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 17 minutes ago, Funky said: But wheel would alarm the rider of low voltage? Right? Or not? Because i almost never monitor my wheel stats.. (At least haven't looked at voltage..) It's not about low voltage it's about battery performance, you will not have the same safety margins as riding in warmer climate due to the sag, what it means is that the rider has to be aware and take it a bit more easy, even if you happen to own a wheel that has good safety features (a lot of wheels don't) it can't predict voltage suddenly dropping a lot and alerting you before it happens and after the fact it can be too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 39 minutes ago, Rawnei said: It's not about low voltage it's about battery performance, you will not have the same safety margins as riding in warmer climate due to the sag, what it means is that the rider has to be aware and take it a bit more easy, even if you happen to own a wheel that has good safety features (a lot of wheels don't) it can't predict voltage suddenly dropping a lot and alerting you before it happens and after the fact it can be too late. I know about the sag.. How easy are we talking here? I'm already riding 2x slower and more careful because of ice/snow. Also my trip is very short 2km till train, wheel gets warmed up in train, followed by another ~1km till home. I can't imagine wheel getting cold that fast? Also it's working/making it's own heat. Doesn't help I'm still charging my wheel only every second week. (Last few days before charge my wheel being around ~74V) Should record few rides right before charging. As then the voltage is the lowest. Luckily temps are back to -6C+4C (21F/40F), so i don't really need to worry about the sag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 9 minutes ago, Funky said: I know about the sag.. How easy are we talking here? I'm already riding 2x slower and more careful because of ice/snow. Also my trip is very short 2km till train, wheel gets warmed up in train, followed by another ~1km till home. I can't imagine wheel getting cold that fast? Also it's working/making it's own heat. Doesn't help I'm still charging my wheel only every second week. (Last few days before charge my wheel being around ~74V) Should record few rides right before charging. As then the voltage is the lowest. Luckily temps are back to -6C+4C (21F/40F), so i don't really need to worry about the sag. Nobody can quantify that for you, just take it easy and you will be fine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterwheel Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 If I start with a warm wheel and only have 2kms to go, there is no wheel in my collection that I wouldn't trust to get me there without issues. My own commute, one way, is about 6km. On super cold days (today being one, -36c) my S-18 and V11 start to behave a little funky (weird tilt things happen) when the wheel gets super cold by the end of the trip. I'm pretty sure this is because I have super cold air streaming over the internals, especially since I have found that taking the minimal step of putting a clear plastic bag over the top of the wheel prevents these issues. And enclosed wheels like the EXN don't seem to have this problem. I generally watch my wheel the first times riding in cold to see how the temperature drops as I travel at different ambient temps. For a given ambient temperature the wheel will either maintain its internal temperature or not. For my old ACM2, I found that at about -17c the wheel temperature would drop over the course of a ride so I had to get to work before it got too low. Above that I was okay to take my time. But for that's for my trips which take 20-25 minutes. As I said, a 2km trip is short enough that I would never worry about any of this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 (edited) 33 minutes ago, winterwheel said: If I start with a warm wheel and only have 2kms to go, there is no wheel in my collection that I wouldn't trust to get me there without issues. My own commute, one way, is about 6km. On super cold days (today being one, -36c) my S-18 and V11 start to behave a little funky (weird tilt things happen) when the wheel gets super cold by the end of the trip. I'm pretty sure this is because I have super cold air streaming over the internals, especially since I have found that taking the minimal step of putting a clear plastic bag over the top of the wheel prevents these issues. And enclosed wheels like the EXN don't seem to have this problem. I generally watch my wheel the first times riding in cold to see how the temperature drops as I travel at different ambient temps. For a given ambient temperature the wheel will either maintain its internal temperature or not. For my old ACM2, I found that at about -17c the wheel temperature would drop over the course of a ride so I had to get to work before it got too low. Above that I was okay to take my time. But for that's for my trips which take 20-25 minutes. As I said, a 2km trip is short enough that I would never worry about any of this. Yeah even that day when i had -28C.. I recorded that ride. While riding temps went up by 3-4C. (Even when riding from job to train and then home - wheel temp went from 0C to +4 - my workplace is somewhat cold. Luckily -28C is rare sight. Anything warmer - my wheel is warmer also.) Aside from 2km trip - i have to wait in place also for train.. Same 10-20min. Edited January 12 by Funky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 4 hours ago, Funky said: Doesn't help I'm still charging my wheel only every second week. Why is that ? I charge mine to full before every single trip, even if I only did 10 miles the time before ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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