why running max pressure in ur tire is safer

[Flygonial]

3 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i went down on my brand new one with it's knobby, going thru my pasture gate where the cows have reduced the grass to just sugar sand. sugar sand would require a golf cart tire. so until i deck the gate opening, i'll be pushing the wheel out to the pasture. much smarter and safer. wet leaves are the next worse. i could definitely drop the knobby down to 35 psi or lower if i was always gonna be in my pastures, because the uneven terrain wouldn't allow deflection oscillations because every rotation in the pasture the sidewalls mold to the uneven washboard terrain. i ran my jeep at 25 psi out there for comfort, but would fill the tires back to 38 psi, before going on the hwy.

Right, it definitely can be situational (especially with your way of life), though to my understanding most of what you're referring to in the thread topic is in the context of street riding. I'm not entirely convinced that higher pressure is necessarily a big difference-maker in terms of safety barring the edge cases (in which case I've pointed out arguments for both sides), but what I definitely do agree on is that getting accustomed to a higher pressure often seems to makes for a better rider, which is absolutely a safety factor. You develop a better sense of connection to your wheel and are given less leeway for bad habits such as zombie riding. Many of the less skilled riders I've seen are probably capable of becoming better but developed bad habits early on and rely on big, heavy, and stable wheels running at most moderate pressures to keep themselves upright.

I'm not so positive if going "over-pressure" on your car is necessarily the best approach, that being said. Anything one-to-two wheeled is gonna have a rounded profile by default, but the square profiles on car tires supposedly wear unevenly when overinflated? 

[novazeus]

the stock knobby uninflated and underinflated, would make for an easy overlean.

the videos i have seen, the tire made a helluva racket on pavement, but now i suspect that was from a less than manufacturers recommendation tire pressure of 40psi.

the stock knobby does get rounded properly inflated.

road vehicles with two or more tires should follow the owner's manual or door edge info of the vehicle manufacturers suggested pressure. the bronco 2's flipping over because ford got complaints from housewives that wanted to be more sporty than their minivan but found the offroad bronco 2 suspension too soft, so ford told them on the door to lower the tire pressures, humans died when they all started to roll over during evasive maneuvers, ford got sued along with the tire manufacturer which i think was firestone. that's why car's now cost a thousand dollars more. humans are too stupid to inflate their tires properly so the govt made car makers put tps on every non commercial vehicle. 

couse, u can't afford a car anymore because of the wonderful safety features.

[KiwiMark]

Interesting thread, but I can't help wondering how anyone could think that the tyre manufacturers advice for the maximum pressure their tyre should be inflated to is in any way equal to a recommendation of the ideal tyre pressure on your EUC. Cars, trucks, motorcycles, etc. don't generally use the tyres max pressure, they usually use the vehicle manufacturers recommendation of the most suitable tyre pressure (which, obviously should always be no more than the tyre manufacturers stated maximum pressure).

Surely minimum safe pressure to minimize the chances of a pinch flat, most suitable tyre pressure for a given EUC/Tyre/rider/total weight and maximum safe pressure for a particular tyres are three distinct and different things? Sometimes you might want to experiment with 25psi, 30psi, 35psi - to work out what feels best. You might also want to ensure that you never run the tyre with less than - say 20psi (or whatever value is appropriate) to avoid rim damage or pinch flats. You should also avoid pumping the tyre to more than whatever number is written on the sidewall for max tyre pressure.

Getting recommendations from similar weight riders on the same wheel for a tyre pressure that 'feels right' might help to get a starting point. Someone saying "always use the maximum that the tyre is rated for" would generally be something I would discard as a rather silly statement. I've never done that on any vehicle that I've owned/used.

Remember: running the maximum pressure that is written on your tyre is often less safe than running the most appropriate pressure for the amount of weight that is on that tyre. If you are a heavier rider you might want higher pressure, maybe even up to the max that the tyre is rated for, but lighter riders probably would be safer with less pressure than that.

[novazeus]

i don't use euc world or any energy use monitoring program, but  it would be interesting to see the same path ridden at max pressure then at 10psi lower pressure.

[alcatraz]

5 hours ago, Flygonial said:

Local rider found this out first hand (though with no bad ending). Shinko 244 on EX30 (so a bit less street grip already), 47 psi, and race mode all led to him breaking traction during hard, low-speed acceleration. I'd imagine if anybody would know about loss in grip though it'd be racers, what settings do they typically run on the track?

Of course, in real-world riding you generally don't need to push the limits of your wheel's grip and many riders are quite concerned about dented rims. There could be an argument to be made that having more trust in your wheel to keep traction when suddenly carving and making evasive maneuvers is valuable. That being said, there not only needs to be a certain skill threshold (which involves a decent amount of time and/or risk to develop) to really make use of this, but it can be argued that with conservative/defensive riding these situations are very rare. Perhaps more relevant is with forms of braking assist becoming more common (first on the V13, and then Begode's race modes), the limits of a wheel's braking torque are more accessible than ever. I've heard accounts of people (presumably with a given weight/pressure/height) being able to break traction when braking on the Master, which I feel is a more relevant safety concern. Tire selection/pressure may actually become a real concern beyond "whatever you feel like" for emergency braking when enough wheels capable of braking to the limits of traction are commonplace.

Wow. Good info. Thanks.

I would imagine that euc riders "could" get away with riding a higher pressure than recommended because the weight is all on one tire. Like, it's being used differently than the tire manufacturer intended.

But then again, the grip/traction requirement is generally higher. We've all gone over wet manholes, glossy tiles, or oil patches and had our undies soiled. On a two wheeled vehicle I bet you do it just for fun, with the rear sliding around a bit, heavy on the throttle.

Edited October 1, 2023 by alcatraz

[novazeus]

absolutely depends on ur terrain. i'm no daredevil and now i own two of the most powerful wheels ever made, and i'm supermanning up my little pasture hill wondering if it's gonna give out. a faceplant in dirt probably isn't fun. i'm just trying to make it easier on the wheel, not me. and i never go anywhere. if i was out in the wild, i would adjust the tire pressure to whatever terrain and style of riding. like jeep tires ranch, 25psi, burns lots of gas crawling around the ranch, on the interstate, 38psi, pretty economical.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

This is an interesting article on tire pressure and rolling resistance as it pertains to bicycle tires.   It explains how higher pressure will have less rolling resistance to a point and then increases the higher you go as the road vibrations are sent through the tire and chassis causing a higher resistance. So it seems there is a sweet spot on tires where the pressure is high enough to decrease rolling resistance but not so high as to distribute the vibrations through the chassis. It also explains that a thinner tire will have less than a thicker one because it's able to return shape after deformation faster.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Things_that_Roll/Tires/Tire_Pressure_and_Rolling_Resistance_7406.html

 

[novazeus]

my only point is, these wheels aren't that powerful to begin with. rolling with less than manufacturers recommended tire pressure, like the inmotion v13 clearly states 40psi in their manual, puts extra strain on these not very powerful wheels to begin with. like i've said, i didn't need to experiment with lowering tire pressures, neltrek or the lousy innertube supplied was leaking from delivery unbeknownst to me. i checked it when i took it out of the box, 40 psi, but max pressure on the michelin is 45 psi. i just figured that's where they set it. but i was wrong. it had been leaking. took a long time but eventually i had ridden it over a thousand miles with it losing air. anybody can experiment with tire pressures themselves, i'm just stating the obvious, lance armstrong would have never won a race on a beach bike with big soft tires, i could beat him on a ten speed with hard tires. it just takes less energy to drive an euc with properly inflated tires as stated on the sidewall, than it does an euc with deflated tires. i know it's easier to learn how to ride, i suppose, i didn't learn that way, but having a wheel just for training, with deflated a deflated tire isn't a bad idea.

yesterday i rode both v13's while i was adjusting the first batch v13 suspension. haha, just after riding the new one with it's big easy tire, i got on my old one, the one with 1500 plus miles on it. haha, i was laughing on how easy it would be to lose it with the street tire. i wanna see @Forwardnbakdo one legged riding on my v13 with it's street michelin on it. i'm hoping the extra stability of the knobby, i'll be able to nonchalantly mount and not look like a spazz doing it.

tires and tire pressure, hugely effect ur ride and safety while on a li-on device that just shuts off when overloaded.

one of u could easily prove the obvious by recording the energy on a route with max pressure, and then try it at ur normal preference of tire pressure. 

yeah, good article for non suspension bicycles, and i'm sure accurate. fortunately our modern wheels have suspension so that part about needing the tire for suspension, isn't applicable.

Edited October 1, 2023 by novazeus

[Rawnei]

Perhaps you need to zoom out a bit, many thousands of riders ride these devices with varying low to high tire pressures no problems, long distances, off-roading, jumping in the air, going down stairs and whatnot, meaning whatever subjective feeling the rider has of what defines a enjoyable ride under what PSI seems to work just fine.

[Glock43x]

Tried it several times and it's a big NO for me. I have a ton more control and traction running my 16x at 28 psi vs max which is 40 psi i believe.   I used to ride super sport bikes and it's the same concept with EUC's.  I rode my motorcycles pretty aggressively. Knee dragging around turns.   I can ride my 16x more aggressively with less air vs max air.

naked, i am 170 lbs. With gears, I'm probably close to 200lbs.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Glock43x

[novazeus]

it's not about traction or handling, it's just a fact, a wheel with a hard tire on pavement will tax the motor and batteries less than a wheel running a lower tre pressure. 

if ur number one concern with wheels is a cutoff or overlean, asking for more power than the wheel can deliver, like me, then u try to make the wheel not have to work as hard. i could lose weight or run the tire and manufacturers recommended tire pressure. if ur terrain requires a deflated tire, then obviously u do that and just be conscious of the fact ur wheel is working harder. same with internal combustion engines that get less mileage.

[Rawnei]

26 minutes ago, novazeus said:

it's not about traction or handling, it's just a fact, a wheel with a hard tire on pavement will tax the motor and batteries less than a wheel running a lower tre pressure. 

if ur number one concern with wheels is a cutoff or overlean, asking for more power than the wheel can deliver, like me, then u try to make the wheel not have to work as hard. i could lose weight or run the tire and manufacturers recommended tire pressure. if ur terrain requires a deflated tire, then obviously u do that and just be conscious of the fact ur wheel is working harder. same with internal combustion engines that get less mileage.

Who are you even addressing this to? Seems like you have a certain niche audience in mind when you are talking about overleans and make a connection to low tire pressure.

[novazeus]

9 hours ago, Glock43x said:

it several times and it's a big NO for me. I have a ton more control and traction

this quote

[Rawnei]

3 minutes ago, novazeus said:

this quote

Using quotes is great, where do you get overlean from? He said he was happy with his tire pressure.

[Nostris]

The pressure stamped on the sidewall of the tyre is the Maximum Cold Tyre Inflation Pressure. IE..The never exceed pressure.  It is absolutely NOT the recommended riding pressure.  On a hot day, on hot asphalt you can easily raise the tyre temperature substantially to dangerous levels and if you have a puncture it’s more like an explosion. Over inflation of the tyre also causes distortion  if the tyres tread pattern and profile and can lead to a very compromised riding experience by being too twitchy and dangerously bouncy. 

[novazeus]

https://www.tirerack.com/upgrade-garage/what-is-maximum-load-inflation-pressure-for-a-tire

[Nostris]

On 10/1/2023 at 12:08 AM, novazeus said:

the stock knobby uninflated and underinflated, would make for an easy overlean.

the videos i have seen, the tire made a helluva racket on pavement, but now i suspect that was from a less than manufacturers recommendation tire pressure of 40psi.

the stock knobby does get rounded properly inflated.

road vehicles with two or more tires should follow the owner's manual or door edge info of the vehicle manufacturers suggested pressure. the bronco 2's flipping over because ford got complaints from housewives that wanted to be more sporty than their minivan but found the offroad bronco 2 suspension too soft, so ford told them on the door to lower the tire pressures, humans died when they all started to roll over during evasive maneuvers, ford got sued along with the tire manufacturer which i think was firestone. that's why car's now cost a thousand dollars more. humans are too stupid to inflate their tires properly so the govt made car makers put tps on every non commercial vehicle. 

couse, u can't afford a car anymore because of the wonderful safety features.

I am sorry, but you are so wrong on this. The pressure stamped on the sidewall of the tyre is a safety notice…Its intended meaning is …Do not exceed this pressure!  At no point is it ever considered to be the recommended riding/ driving pressure. This is very common knowledge for anyone involved in tyre technology.. The same with the maximum permitted load..or corner weighting of a vehicle. It is a safety notice. It’s true to say that with an increased pressure the rolling resistance becomes less, and any vehicles owner hand book states this… as they also state the recommended driving pressures….that are no where near the maxim permitted pressure. 

[novazeus]

this is the tire and the manual for the v13.

[Nostris]

1 minute ago, novazeus said:

this is the tire and the manual for the v13.

Yes, this is the same in the hand book of my V12… And INMOTION are making exactly the same mistake!  As stated in the article you posted from Tyre Track. It is the maximum cold inflation pressure, not a recommended riding / driving pressure. INMOTION are wrong on this I’m afraid…it is a very, very common mistake to be honest. 

[Robse]

for those who dont beleive...

https://www.setyres.com/tyre-sidewall-markings

screenshot from Goodyear

[Barefooter]

Tire pressure must be a function of load and control.  Rolling resistance is a secondary consideration that is best tuned by tire choice and minor changes in pressure.  Running an EUC tire at max pressure when the load doesn't indicate that much pressure results in an unsafe wheel since the tire isn't in contact with the ground as expected.

As an example take this personal story. 

I run a 15 passenger van which has the rear passenger seats, mounting rails and floor removed (vehicle weight reduced by  700-1000lbs)  Door sticker says to run the rear tires at 75psi and front at 52psi.  That 75psi suggestion is based on assumptions on loading of passengers and gear.  When i run it at 75psi the van is unstable and gets pushed around significantly when passed by large vehicles.  Running rear tires at ~60psi results in a stable drive

[DjPanJan]

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/fat-bike-reviews?orderby=rr20

[novazeus]

4 minutes ago, DjPanJan said:

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/fat-bike-reviews?orderby=rr20

this is my only point and my greatest fear riding an euc, overpowering the euc resulting in a forward tilt or faceplant. not braking, traction, handling, etc. i just want to put the least amount of stress on the wheel. i can ride just fine at max pressure, no pads or spiked pedals. i prefer the handling and ride at max pressure. takes practice to get use to it.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

37 minutes ago, novazeus said:

this is my only point and my greatest fear riding an euc, overpowering the euc resulting in a forward tilt or faceplant.

You should try running an app like EUC world and take a ride really pushing the wheel to get some idea as to how close you are to over lean. The v13 has been pushed to 12,400 watts and 120 amp. and hasn't cut out. Maybe it would put your mind at ease if you found out you weren't even close to those values. Or maybe enforce your cause for caution if you were close at any point. It's nice to know how far your actually pushing the wheel most of the time.

[novazeus]

3 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

You should try running an app like EUC world and take a ride really pushing the wheel to get some idea as to how close you are to over lean. The v13 has been pushed to 12,400 watts and 120 amp. and hasn't cut out. Maybe it would put your mind at ease if you found out you weren't even close to those values. Or maybe enforce your cause for caution if you were close at any point. It's nice to know how far your actually pushing the wheel most of the time.

i got that feeling when the wheel was new and tire pressure had leaked down to 25psi and trying to roll over the shoulder back to the pavement it almost faceplanted me with a forward dip. no thanks. i use the v13 as an convenience tool to retrieve packages from my gate. 20mph is my preference.