Another gotway fire

[Greg X]

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

LG M50T cells based battery packs were deemed dangerous,

exactly, older batteries with cheapest cells m50t could be dangerous but only built in euc's with small and medium battery with 21700 cells (max1800wh). Bigger batteries (2700-3600wh) are safer, even if built on this same cells, bcs. they have more cells in battery. 
But factory after 1year changed m50t cells for better, safer cells - 50LT or Samsung50e. So...problem solved. Newer batteries are safer, 95% cases of fire are with Nikola/Msuper with 21700 cells, bcs. they had strong motor with inadequate battery (too small for motor power).

Also older models (Msx, Monster, etc.) with Sanyo 18650 cells are safer, bcs. they had more cells in battery than newer batteries built on 21700 cells, and weaker motor, which consumes less energy. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Greg X

[goatman]

their bms's were the culprit afaic and the crappy m50t cells were prone to catching fire when the bms crapped out

[0000]

5 minutes ago, goatman said:

their bms's were the culprit afaic and the crappy m50t cells were prone to catching fire when the bms crapped out

I never read anything about there being a definitive or official answer to the cause, just a lot of speculation and supposition. Do you have a link?

[0000]

11 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@VanturionNo need to be rude/blame someone who just had a battery fire

No I don't think it's rude to characterize the situation as I did, it's being real about a dangerous situation that may help people like @Frolic0415 in this thread not make the same mistake.

He admitted that he knew his gotway was at a much higher chance of having a fire, has a long post history and is likely pretty clued in to the situation, and he took steps to mitigate the damage in advance. But then when the inevitable happened, he wanted to blame all lithium ion batteries. Sorry it sucks that the fire happened, but I don't think it's fair, accurate, or useful to shift the blame especially when you admit to knowing that your wheel is at basically the top of the list for PEV fire risk. Yes Gotway/Begode was and is in the wrong in continuing to fail to do a recall beyond the eWheel exclusive recall here in the US, but once you the individual becomes aware of a risk, you they are 100% responsible after that point.

What I think doesn't help anyone is to make excuses about the situation because if it's not treated seriously we're just going to see more preventable incidents added to the Fire History thread over time.

11 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

some people have other things to worry about than just thinking about their old electric unicycles all of their time

Well it's on the individual to weigh $2000 against the inevitability of another M50T fire and their house, apartment, and/or family burning up. In your own words you've seen enough to characterize the M50T 4P packs as "ticking time bombs." Besides, they don't need to take a total loss, they could see about buying replacement packs, or even deconstructing their own packs to get the BMSs, buying new cell holders, and spot weld new packs with new 21700 cells of choice. Just saying there are more options than taking a total loss.

In any case, the situation is exactly as @techyiam said: the danger and recall threshold was already surpassed when eWheels performed their own recall on these 900wh packs (and then had their warehouse burn down which itself should be pretty telling). I think the best thing we can do for the community is be proactive in making a permanent visible warning that wheels with these specific LG M50T 900wh battery packs should have been recalled but weren't, and that any gotway/begode wheel owners with this battery configuration be advised to remove and safely discharge and dispose of their packs ASAP.

Anyway, I can make a thread later and aggregate much of the links and discussion from the forum history that would support the warning and the voluntary recall stance (or anyone else can too if they feel inclined).

Edited August 10, 2023 by Vanturion

[alcatraz]

You'd think that begode fans would die off because of all the stories but I think they're actually growing. 

The difference in risk is probably not as great as portrayed. It's just that one accident can be one too many.

I'm trying to think of an analogy. Hmm...

Let's say we're all smokers and we all dream about living a long life. The difference is maybe something like smoking marlboro lights vs regular marlboros. And the lights smokers look at the regular smokers and go "what's goes on in your head man???" *puff puff* 

Edited August 11, 2023 by alcatraz

[alcatraz]

Avoiding risky cells is kind of crazy to ignore. Sure, I could see myself using M50T I got for free with a proper BMS with temp meters etc, on an ebike perhaps. And parking it in a good place.

There have been M50T fires with all three major brands. Kingsong S18, Inmotion V11 and Begode first gen Nikola/Msp/Rs.

[0000]

@meepmeepmayer, well the PSA thread is up now. Feel free to sticky and/or advise on corrections if you see anything.

On 8/11/2023 at 1:26 AM, alcatraz said:

There have been M50T fires with all three major brands. Kingsong S18, Inmotion V11 and Begode first gen Nikola/Msp/Rs.

I only included the Begode wheels in the recall advisement to mirror the eWheel recall scope. Begode fires are a clear stand-out on the Fire History thread, but that could be just due to their relative greater popularity and possibly higher performance limits (current demands). Just speculation. On one hand, I feel 100% confident advising against the continued use of these packs on those Begode wheels, but we only have the anecdote of 2 fires that wasn't a water submersion for S18 vs 6 for the Inmotion V11.

Personally I don't think I'd be comfortable using the 50T cells in any wheel in the 4P or less configuration. It's a good point though, definitely something to watch for in the future.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Vanturion
added some numbers

[Mango]

Time for sympathy is over. It's been known for years these packs can explode. No sympathy for when riders put others' lives at stake knowing full well these are fire risks.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, alcatraz said:

You'd think that begode fans would die off because of all the stories but I think they're actually growing. 

You do realize Begode completely revamped their whole line-up, and have switched to Samsung 50E. All the LG battery packs wheels have been discontinued entirely. Additionally, Begode has started to improve build quality. I haven't been hearing many issues with the EX30. I spoke to some owners. Their replies have been very positive.

[alcatraz]

24 minutes ago, techyiam said:

You do realize Begode completely revamped their whole line-up, and have switched to Samsung 50E. All the LG battery packs wheels have been discontinued entirely. Additionally, Begode has started to improve build quality. I haven't been hearing many issues with the EX30. I spoke to some owners. Their replies have been very positive.

Hey, I ride gotway myself with Panasonic/Sanyo cells. 

The post was aimed at people that never owned Begode/Gotway and call them serious hazards.

I reluctantly bought Gotway a few years ago. The first 1000km on Gotway I rode cautiously, because I was paranoid because of all the critics. Now I've done 20.000km on Begode/Gotway and it's been as safe as my Inmotion (which I rode for 10.000km). So for me personally, the myth that all Begode are time bombs has been debunked. But I can totally understand people's stance because risk is something everyone has to decide for themselves.

Edited August 11, 2023 by alcatraz

[goatman]

theres alot of people that know the packs are a fire hazard and sell their wheels anyways, anyone that rides a wheel knows that and you used to see them on craigslist all the time hoping a noob would buy it.

i kind of searched for the thread of my msp teardown where the board blew at only 600 kms and the b12 fuse blew

there was no visible damage to the bms but any battery that was still connected to the bms was drained to almost 0 volts or went negative polarity, the cells where the fuse blew were fine because they were no longer connected to the bms. there was something goofy with those bms's, after all the cells were removed the voltages changed a little and a couple of the reverse polarity cells went positive. theyve been sitting in a box in my garage for over a year, keep meaning to recycle them but...

Edited August 11, 2023 by goatman
add a bit

[techyiam]

On 8/10/2023 at 7:28 PM, alcatraz said:

Hey, I ride gotway myself with Panasonic/Sanyo cells. 

I ride a T3 with LG M50LT 21700 cells.

I also ride a V12 with LG M50LT 21700 cells.

About 8000 km's each.

I do worry about potential fire hazards on both, but a lot more on the T3 as they age. The V12 onboard diagnostic is very sensitive to battery errors. And I am lazy. I don't open the packs up and measure each cell group voltages on a regular basis.

But you are not riding with LG M50T nor 21700 cells.

I would not buy an older Begode wheel with the LG M50T cells in 4P battery configuration.

However, it is possible for me to buy the EX30 with the 6P Samsung 50E cells.

On 8/10/2023 at 7:28 PM, alcatraz said:

The post was aimed at people that never owned Begode/Gotway and call them serious hazards.

The US government agency CPSC call those Begode wheels with the LG M50T 4P battery packs serious fire hazards.

Jason at wheels stopped selling Gotway/Begode wheels for a year until he could source his own battery packs.

On 8/10/2023 at 7:28 PM, alcatraz said:

I reluctantly bought Gotway a few years ago. The first 1000km on Gotway I rode cautiously, because I was paranoid because of all the critics. Now I've done 20.000km on Begode/Gotway and it's been as safe as my Inmotion (which I rode for 10.000km). So for me personally, the myth that all Begode are time bombs has been debunked. But I can totally understand people's stance because risk is something everyone has to decide for themselves.

Statistically insignificant. That is why there are still victims. There are still people who thinks it is a good idea to continue to use those 900 Wh, battery packs in 4P configuration. Of course there are owners who are more susceptible due to various factors. But for the average owner, they wouldn't know. Each one think they are OK until it catches fire.

Ask the people who experienced the fires. Was it worth it to put their families through the experience. The CPSC has issues the warnings after their investigations. Jason stopped selling Begode wheels for about a year until he could source his own battery packs.

Edited August 13, 2023 by techyiam

[alcatraz]

7 hours ago, techyiam said:

Statistically insignificant.

No one is recommending the M50T cells. 

If I were using the M50LT I'd be nervous too. I don't believe any wheel brands reliably monitor pack temperatures so it's hard to track the performance while riding. Statistically they're better. Regardless of what you have it's good to measure the groups once a year to rule out bms issues, overcharging etc.

I like the long track record of my NCR18650PF and GA cells.

Yeah it's statistically insignificant in the big scheme of things, but nevertheless it's one statistical measurement on the opposite side of general assumption that Gotway/Begode are fire hazards.

With the risk of going offtopic, I'm curious why you bought two quite similar wheels?

Edited August 11, 2023 by alcatraz

[meepmeepmayer]

9 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

No one is recommending the M50T cells. 

Understatement of the year

[alcatraz]

16 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Understatement of the year

Ha! And the award goes to....  

[Robse]

Battery pack check, lucky man i am

[Mono]

12 hours ago, techyiam said:

You do realize Begode completely revamped their whole line-up, and have switched to Samsung 50E. All the LG battery packs wheels have been discontinued entirely. Additionally, Begode has started to improve build quality. 

...and then a brand new A2 model burns away...

I am confused.

[techyiam]

5 hours ago, Mono said:

...and then a brand new A2 model burns away...

I am confused.

You are only confused because you were too quick to judge. We need to wait for all the facts to paint an accurate picture.

[xiiijojjo]

On 8/11/2023 at 3:03 AM, Mango said:

Time for sympathy is over. It's been known for years these packs can explode. No sympathy for when riders put others' lives at stake knowing full well these are fire risks.

Sorry I'm usually very respectful but you people are fucking insane. 

How would anyone feel after surviving a car crash with their entire family in the car, and being told "the inherent dangers of operating a vehicle has been known for a long time, you did this to yourself and to your family, you should have gotten rid of your car the moment you learned of the inherent risks". By that logic all of you should get rid of all lithium ion batteries and other potentially dangerous things in your house or you are the one to blame if anything happens, right? I was scared straight by this and have been putting all my remaining lithium ion products in the same spot the euc burned in case of another fire and will make an effort to phase lithium ion out of my personal possessions not because of an m50t cell in a gotway starting a fire but because ALL lithium ion batteries have an inherent fire risk that personally isn't worth the convenience they provide. 

As @Vanturion mentioned I have known about the increased chance of fire posed by ownership of a gotway for a long time, and have even been aware that my specific version and batch of my euc is known to be more prone to fires.

To me that just meant that I at least have to think of a plan in case of a potential fire since I could not afford being without an euc. 

I don't know how familiar @Vanturionis with my personal situation but I have simply not been in a financial situation for the longest time that has allowed me to discard cells, or undergo any of his other suggestions, and I was depending on that euc for my daily transportation needs. I know a lot of people on this forum seem to be able to buy a new 3600wh euc every week, but sadly I'm a mere mortal unable to afford such luxuries. 

 

I understand you want to help forum goers to avoid ending up with a fire and potentially loss of life and I respect that persuit and if even one person is saved from your actions that'd be a great success in my opinion. The initiative to make a thread about a topic this important is noteworthy and I praise the decision of trying to make more people aware. 

Just don't go around blaming victims of house fires unless they personally lit the match or bought an euc with a fire rate above 1% after knowing about the fires.

Remember I bought my euc before any reviews or fire reports were available. 

I can't believe I have to defend myself for having been a house fire... Wtf is wrong with people today. 

 

 

[elimansour]

Is there a comprehensive list of which wheels use LG M50T 900wh battery packs?  

[0000]

Yeah @Mango was a bit harsh there, but probably just coming from a place of anger for a now very well-known risk on this forum where people unfortunately are continuing to endanger themselves, and more importantly others, who themselves aren't even aware of the risks that LG M50T owners are choosing to put on them. That's the reason to take a harsher stance here as it's not exactly accurate to claim perfect victimhood when you know there was a much greater chance of fire and choose to gamble anyway, especially when that choice risks others unknowingly.

If you didn't know, that's one thing, and it really sucks that you and many others have bought and found out afterward, but it seems like you had a pretty good idea after the fact so that's where the personal accountability comes from.

With your case, the damage is already done and luckily no one was hurt - so at this point it's more about what can be done to prevent others from making the same mistake given that Gotway/Begode today still fails to recall these obviously dangerous products. From your point of view, I think the people/company most deserving of your anger or condemnation is Gotway/Begode for failing to rectify their mistake and forcing you to choose between continuing to use a known dangerous product or taking a significant financial loss. From the community's point of view, it would be best to encourage people not to make the same mistake by continuing to use a demonstrably unsafe battery configuration, and 2 threads/1 sticky were created in the wake of this thread as a more visible warning to that goal.

1 hour ago, xiiijojjo said:

How would anyone feel after surviving a car crash with their entire family in the car, and being told "the inherent dangers of operating a vehicle has been known for a long time, you did this to yourself and to your family, you should have gotten rid of your car the moment you learned of the inherent risks". By that logic all of you should get rid of all lithium ion batteries and other potentially dangerous things in your house or you are the one to blame if anything happens, right?

No, the logic doesn't follow because that would be like saying because the 1971 Ford Pinto had a design flaw that resulted in a greatly increased or unacceptably high chance of occupant death in collisions, all Ford vehicles designed and manufactured since are unsafe. The situation is that Begode wheels (and quite possibly all EUCs) that came with the LG M50T battery cells in the 4P or less configuration, specifically, are unsafe to the degree that owners would be wise to take them out of service since an official recall is not forthcoming.

Blaming all lithium ion batteries is exactly the impression I don't want impressionable or newer people to the hobby to adopt, just the same as I wouldn't want these repeated M50T fires to be equated in the news as all "EUCs are inherently dangerous and fire-prone." That misinterpretation is what we collectively risk by not being accurate or remaining quiet about which batteries and wheels constitute on unacceptable level of (fire) risk. Hopefully the sticky warning thread helps with that in the future.

That said, it's understandable why you'd take the stance against all lithium ion batteries, I just don't think it's useful to equate the risk associated with the known flawed implementation of LG M50T cells in EUCs to the use of all lithium ion batteries.

In any case, I don't think anyone here has it out for you personally myself included, we just don't want to see more people gambling with wheels with these packs and losing.

[0000]

1 hour ago, elimansour said:

Is there a comprehensive list of which wheels use LG M50T 900wh battery packs?

@alcatraz listed them all above making note of 2 other wheels that have used LG M50T cells not in the 900wh pack configuration which have several entries on the Fire History thread.

Also, since it hasn't been linked in this thread yet - battery fire warning sticky thread.

[Mono]

On 8/11/2023 at 9:40 PM, techyiam said:

You are only confused because you were too quick to judge.

I don't judge, I leave that to other people. I just compute likelihoods based on all (prior and recent) information to which I have had access to.

The likelihood that a brand new A2 model burns away AND Begode got their battery burning shit together computes (in the context of all information I had access to) to a rather low value. Not as low as one in a million, but still rather far less than 10%. How so? Because the likelihood of an event that "justifies" a burning battery without having to put blame on the constructor is generally very, very low and much lower than the likelihood that Begode just still didn't get their shit together, yet, this time. EDIT: in case it was not a battery fire, the likelihood is higher, I'd still put it below 50% though.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Mono

[techyiam]

16 minutes ago, Mono said:

I don't judge,

But you did.

21 hours ago, Mono said:

On 8/10/2023 at 7:04 PM, techyiam said:

You do realize Begode completely revamped their whole line-up, and have switched to Samsung 50E. All the LG battery packs wheels have been discontinued entirely. Additionally, Begode has started to improve build quality. 

...and then a brand new A2 model burns away...

I am confused.

 

[jimjam.nyc]

28 minutes ago, Mono said:

I don't judge, I leave that to other people. I just compute likelihoods based on all (prior and recent) information to which I have had access to.

The likelihood that a brand new A2 model burns away AND Begode got their battery burning shit together computes (in the context of all information I had access to) to a rather low value. Not as low as one in a million, but still rather far less than 10%. How so? Because the likelihood of an event that "justifies" a burning battery without having to put blame on the constructor is generally very, very low and much lower than the likelihood that Begode just still didn't get their shit together, yet, this time.

I honestly don't know if that a2 was a battery fire. The wheel looked a bit too intact for it to be a battery fire. As we have seen you can't put those out once they get going.

But not enough info to be sure.

I believe the issue with the old gotway packs was the bms allowing the cells to sag below the safe amount. Causing damage. Not so much the cells Themselves.

Other than this A2 if it is even a battery fire we have not had many if any fires with the new BMSes and 50e cells.

The newer wheels are still a bit new though to tell, but feeling like we are starting to get a good picture of what to expect.

We will see how they age, with the people who typically push their wheels to the limit.