KingSong 16X Cutout

[zer0dayexploit]

Hey all, I recently had a cutout on my KingSong 16x and I’m wondering what it could have possibly been.

I know the wheel is capable of 50kmh but I like to play it pretty safe and my top speed is set to 42km/h. I’ve set it to give me the first warning at 42kmh, second warning at 43kmh and next warning at 44kmh. 
 

I was riding with battery at 86% on a completely level road, not accelerating or overtaking. I was probably riding at about 38-40kmh because there was no beeping whatsoever coming from the wheel.

Then it suddenly cutout on me and I was lying flat on the road while the wheel flew over me.

Thankfully I was wearing a full face and gloves and am relatively okay.

Unfortunately I do not have the log of the event because I have been having intermittent Bluetooth issues. Please can anyone advise me on what to do next with my local euc shop, what to check and ask for and what possibly could have happened. I chose the wheel specifically because it is considered highly reliable and ride well within the limits of the wheel (no heavy acceleration, no top speed pushing etc). I weigh 70kg and have a relatively light backpack with me, so there is no way I was over the weight capacity either. Any help is appreciated

[Chriull]

3 hours ago, zer0dayexploit said:

Thankfully I was wearing a full face and gloves and am relatively okay.

Good to hear!

3 hours ago, zer0dayexploit said:

Any help is appreciated

Could it be that there was something on the road which caused the wheel to skip and/or slip like some pebble, cone, dirt, etc?

Sounds like some external issue, as riding below max speed without acceleration on a level road cannot cause an overlean.

Otherwise some cut out by bad solder joints, loose connectors etc could be possible? Is the wheel relatively new or already "prooven". Some other accidents/incidents/strange behaviour lately.

[Tawpie]

Phew. Glad you're not badly injured.

If your wheel is under warranty, I would be on the horn. It really shouldn't do that and I personally wouldn't ride it until I understood what happened.

If it's not under warranty, it is time to open it up and do a very close and careful inspection to see if something is loose or otherwise not right. As reliable and robust as the 16X is, it's still a collection of parts and parts will fail. I'm sort of wondering if you might have lost a battery pack (they have fuses under the shrink-wrap—checking battery voltages with a multimeter is a real good place to start).

Edited March 8 by Tawpie

[Cerbera]

Did the wheel power on and balance OK after this crash ? 

[zer0dayexploit]

18 hours ago, Chriull said:

Good to hear!

Could it be that there was something on the road which caused the wheel to skip and/or slip like some pebble, cone, dirt, etc?

Sounds like some external issue, as riding below max speed without acceleration on a level road cannot cause an overlean.

Otherwise some cut out by bad solder joints, loose connectors etc could be possible? Is the wheel relatively new or already "prooven". Some other accidents/incidents/strange behaviour lately.

Nothing on the road at all, it was completely smooth and flat. That’s what was so concerning.

 

The wheel is new, about 2-3 months old. This is after eevees replaced my previous 16x due to malfunctions and issues. I only had that previous wheel for about 2-3 months as well.

Edited March 9 by zer0dayexploit
Added some info

[zer0dayexploit]

15 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Did the wheel power on and balance OK after this crash ? 

Yeah it turned on and balanced fine. When it was on the floor after the fall, it spun up despite lying past 40 degrees on the ground.

[YCC]

What is the free spin speed of 16X? I would recommend the 60% of the free spin speed since we are unable to know the situation of the road. For example, I rode 40KM/H if the free spin speed is 70KM/H etc.

[zer0dayexploit]

15 hours ago, YCC said:

What is the free spin speed of 16X? I would recommend the 60% of the free spin speed since we are unable to know the situation of the road. For example, I rode 40KM/H if the free spin speed is 70KM/H etc.

I can’t find any concrete info on the freespin, but the road was completely flat, no debris or anything. I was riding on a dedicated bike road in my city and just riding in a straight line. No acceleration because I was coming up to a traffic circle soon. Not going faster than 40kmh because I’ve set my beeper to beep and tilt me shortly after. No warnings whatsoever. Battery 86%.

 

Is this just a complete anomaly? This is my second 16x from this place after the first one was plagued with malfunctions and bugs. 
The place I got it from is looking at it now and waiting for a firmware update from Kingsong to see if it fixes anything. I have my doubts that it’s solely firmware.

[Tawpie]

32 minutes ago, zer0dayexploit said:

Is this just a complete anomaly?

I would think it is a fault in the wheel, something loose (hall sensor wires?)... I've put over 4000 miles on mine without incident. Since you were below 40 kph, you should have been fine especially since you didn't hit any big bumps or dips in the road.

 

34 minutes ago, zer0dayexploit said:

The place I got it from is looking at it now and waiting for a firmware update from Kingsong to see if it fixes anything

That's a curious thing... firmware upgrades are available in the KS app, EUCWorld (my recommended upgrade vehicle for KS because @Seba takes extra steps to ensure the wheel doesn't brick), and the "for professional use only" SoftTuner. You don't have to wait for it... let us know what firmware they end up installing.

[zer0dayexploit]

9 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I would think it is a fault in the wheel, something loose (hall sensor wires?)... I've put over 4000 miles on mine without incident. Since you were below 40 kph, you should have been fine especially since you didn't hit any big bumps or dips in the road.

 

That's a curious thing... firmware upgrades are available in the KS app, EUCWorld (my recommended upgrade vehicle for KS because @Seba takes extra steps to ensure the wheel doesn't brick), and the "for professional use only" SoftTuner. You don't have to wait for it... let us know what firmware they end up installing.

My thoughts exactly. If they were downgrading firmware there wouldn’t be the wait, maybe there is a new version and I’ll get early grabs. Not sure how I feel about being an early rider for brand new firmware either. Either way will keep you all posted

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, zer0dayexploit said:

Is this just a complete anomaly?

Seems so. There were not notable reports of ks16x malfunctions. Just complaints about the max speed restrictions at lower battery charge. Afair.

1 hour ago, zer0dayexploit said:

This is my second 16x from this place after the first one was plagued with malfunctions and bugs.

Either they got from some bad patch or it's just bad luck ;(

I can't see a reason how a firmware update could change anything? 

[YCC]

7 hours ago, zer0dayexploit said:

I can’t find any concrete info on the freespin, but the road was completely flat, no debris or anything. I was riding on a dedicated bike road in my city and just riding in a straight line. No acceleration because I was coming up to a traffic circle soon. Not going faster than 40kmh because I’ve set my beeper to beep and tilt me shortly after. No warnings whatsoever. Battery 86%.

 

Is this just a complete anomaly? This is my second 16x from this place after the first one was plagued with malfunctions and bugs. 
The place I got it from is looking at it now and waiting for a firmware update from Kingsong to see if it fixes anything. I have my doubts that it’s solely firmware.

You can link the app, and test the free spin speed yourself. It looks like the top speed of 16X is 50kmh, therefore, maybe the most safety margin of the speed is 30kmh. For example, my MTen4 free spin speed is 57kmh, you can test yourself, and my safety margin of speed is 34kmh.

Here is the spec of 16X as follow.

[Chriull]

19 hours ago, YCC said:

It looks like the top speed of 16X is 50kmh,

That's the highest settable tiltback threshold.

Lift cut off speed should be around 67 km/h at 84V

 according to this post. Seemed to knew or found this somewhere then.

Edited March 12 by Chriull
67 instead of 76 km/h lift cut off speed

[zer0dayexploit]

So if the maximum free spin speed is 76kmh, 60% of that is 45.6 kmh. Even then I was still under that limit.

[Robse]

Are you sure that your wheel is a 16X and not a 16XS ?  Wheels are identical, but the 16XS has only one battery pack ( 770 w ) and the 16XS motherboard is not the same as the 16X - therefore the top speed of the 16XS is limited to 45 kmph  regardless of a later battery upgrade.   If you use EUC world, the model number is found on page #2 ( one left swipe)  If its a 16XS it will look like this:

 

[Eucner]

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

Lift cut off speed should be around 76 km/h at 84V

From different sources I've seen 65, 66 and 71 km/h. You had edited the old post from 76 to 67 km/h.

[Robse]

If its a "true" 16X, and battery is 86%, it shall NOT cutout under the given conditions, Freespin doesn't matter.  no way.    

Light rider, no lean, flat road,  no nothing.  Hardware fault;  Defect board, loose wires, bad battery pack.  Something must be wrong with that wheel.

[Robse]

On 3/9/2023 at 5:10 PM, zer0dayexploit said:

When it was on the floor after the fall, it spun up despite lying past 40 degrees on the ground.

This is not good !  If you have the wheel lying (sideways)  on the floor and power it up, nothing should happen (except some beebs )  If it spins up, somethings wrong with the calibration data or the data delivered from the sensors (Board failure)

[zer0dayexploit]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:00 PM, Robse said:

Are you sure that your wheel is a 16X and not a 16XS ?  Wheels are identical, but the 16XS has only one battery pack ( 770 w ) and the 16XS motherboard is not the same as the 16X - therefore the top speed of the 16XS is limited to 45 kmph  regardless of a later battery upgrade.   If you use EUC world, the model number is found on page #2 ( one left swipe)  If its a 16XS it will look like this:

 

I am 100% certain it is a 16x. My local shop doesn’t even sell a 16xs. 

[Robse]

8 minutes ago, zer0dayexploit said:

I am 100% certain it is a 16x. My local shop doesn’t even sell a 16xs. 

ok - but the serial number could be wrong, and the wheel "thinks" its a 16XS ,  and the speed limit and tiltback is adjusted accordingly . I had that problem with my 16X, got a login to softtuner from KS where i was able to change the serial number and update the firmware.   Before that, my wheel was limited at 45 kmph (and i did not understand what was going on until i took a closer look at the serial number and info from EUC world )  The true serial number is laser engraved on the motor like this ( from an 18XL )

Edited March 13 by Robse

[Funky]

On 3/8/2023 at 9:51 PM, zer0dayexploit said:

Hey all, I recently had a cutout on my KingSong 16x and I’m wondering what it could have possibly been.

I know the wheel is capable of 50kmh but I like to play it pretty safe and my top speed is set to 42km/h. I’ve set it to give me the first warning at 42kmh, second warning at 43kmh and next warning at 44kmh. 
 

I was riding with battery at 86% on a completely level road, not accelerating or overtaking. I was probably riding at about 38-40kmh because there was no beeping whatsoever coming from the wheel.

Then it suddenly cutout on me and I was lying flat on the road while the wheel flew over me.

Thankfully I was wearing a full face and gloves and am relatively okay.

Unfortunately I do not have the log of the event because I have been having intermittent Bluetooth issues. Please can anyone advise me on what to do next with my local euc shop, what to check and ask for and what possibly could have happened. I chose the wheel specifically because it is considered highly reliable and ride well within the limits of the wheel (no heavy acceleration, no top speed pushing etc). I weigh 70kg and have a relatively light backpack with me, so there is no way I was over the weight capacity either. Any help is appreciated

You need to follow Watts/Volts pulled more than speed... And 16X real "max" speed is well known to be ~45km/h not 50.

You can get cutout even at 25km/h speed if you lean forwards enough.. Or accelerate fast enough.. Speed mean jack shit in this case. You need to look out for Watts/Volts usage.

2200W motor and 4000W peak power.

 

How to check free spin speed - connect app - hold wheel by pedals. Let it speed up till it turns off. - Check app for max speed...

 

In any case you're light rider and riding on smooth ground at 40km/h - you should not have had a cutout for sure!

Edited March 13 by Funky

[daniel1234]

41 minutes ago, zer0dayexploit said:

I am 100% certain it is a 16x. My local shop doesn’t even sell a 16xs. 

sometimes local distributors don't check what is really in boxes from china. 

Cutouts above 20 km/h are dangerous, I would not ride that fast before you found what is wrong. 
I would find a skatepark or Bridge where is 25+ degree incline and try slowly climb it up. 16x have crazy pull - if the battery or MB is faulty it will starts beeping like crazy.

 

[zer0dayexploit]

Yeah I'm definitely going to give that skatepark trick a go, great idea to force load without high speed

I've been talking with the tech daily and im sure he would have noticed if one of the batteries was missing by now haha but I'll be sure to double check serial number while im at it.

[Robse]

20 minutes ago, zer0dayexploit said:

Yeah I'm definitely going to give that skatepark trick a go, great idea to force load without high speed

I've been talking with the tech daily and im sure he would have noticed if one of the batteries was missing by now haha but I'll be sure to double check serial number while im at it.

I have to correct myself (bad memory) ;  The serial number found on the motor is the not the true number, but the number you have to use if you want KS to create a login for softtuner;  They do match the serial number with the motor number in order to make sure what wheel you have; 16X or 16XS.  But if EUC world reports 16X - then don't worry

Edited March 13 by Robse

[Tawpie]

2 hours ago, Robse said:

But if EUC world reports 16X - then don't worry

well, maybe check anyway. I have an XS (but it's a long range version, I added another battery) and the stock control board told EUCW that it was an XS. But I got a replacement XS control board and EUCW reports it as a full "X". It's been a couple years now, but my understanding was that if your control board serial number (the one on the pedal sticker, not the motor) starts with KS16X1B then it's a half battery 6 MOSFET speed limited XS board.