NY Daily News: FDNY says LI-Ion fires as deadly as 9/11

[Mono]

8 hours ago, Paul A said:

The Grenfell fire perhaps demonstrates the high level of concern to the FDNY.

Building fires can be devastating and pose a significant problem, right. Now, the question is to what extend e-bike batteries are actually causing this problem.

8 hours ago, Paul A said:

Percentage of fires caused by lithium batteries might not be the main interest of FDNY.

We can't possibly know. What we can know: the percentage of fires caused by batteries (and their severity) is exactly what decides whether batteries are in fact a relevant fire problem. Kinda not rocket science which even the FDNY may have in their pocket to pull.

[alcatraz]

I'm curious. If a house fire spreads to a PEV causing it to pop all its cells and becoming a volcano... Is it possible that it mistakingly be deemed the cause of the fire? Maybe the landlord "knows" the fire marshall who pulls some strings....

[Paul A]

2 hours ago, Mono said:

to what extend e-bike batteries are actually causing this problem.

 

The FDNY are extremely concerned because recent apartment fires in NYC have been caused by e-bike lithium batteries.  These were reported in news videos.

 

2 hours ago, Mono said:

the percentage of fires caused by batteries (and their severity) is exactly what decides whether batteries are in fact a relevant fire problem.

 

The statistics of a dramatic increase of lithium battery fires is causing the FDNY to crack down.

It is the reason why the FDNY is seeking the assistance of the CSPC.

[Paul A]

2 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Is it possible that it mistakingly be deemed the cause of the fire?

 

Arson squad investigators would determine the cause of a fire.

Just as they were able to determine the cause of the Grenfell Tower fire.

[alcatraz]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

 

Arson squad investigators would determine the cause of a fire.

Just as they were able to determine the cause of the Grenfell Tower fire.

I wonder if they can really look past one of two PEVs turned into volcanoes and focus on something with a smaller beginning. I mean it must be convenient to blame a big volcano looking thing. 

Let's say the cause of the fire is inconclusive. There are multiple theories and because we're a minority we kind of get outvoted and blamed. 

[Hellkitten]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30594905/

https://scholarship.richmond.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1329&context=jolt

Edited March 3, 2023 by Hellkitten

[Paul A]

46 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Let's say the cause of the fire is inconclusive.

 

In some instances, there is eyewitness testimony from the victims that were able to escape and survive.

 

https://nypost.com/2023/02/05/e-bike-battery-fire-in-nyc-leaves-3-kids-injured-including-2-critically-fdny/

NY Post

February 5, 2023 

 

E-bike battery fire in NYC leaves 3 kids injured, including 2 critically: FDNY

 

Three children were injured – two critically – when an e-bike battery in their Manhattan apartment caught fire, trapping them in the flames, the FDNY said Sunday.

 

An adult also was critically injured in the blaze, which tore through the fifth-floor home at 165 Sherman Ave. in Inwood in Upper Manhattan around 1:30 a.m., officials said. 

 

“The family in the apartment was sleeping,” FDNY Chief of Operations John Esposito said at an afternoon news conference. “The battery was charging overnight, and it was charging in the path of egress to get out of the apartment. So when the battery overheated and started the fire, it blocked the egress out of the apartment trapping the family.”

 

Two people escaped the blaze and were able to run past the battery, which was being charged, and out into a hallway.

The bike was not attached to the battery at the time.

[alcatraz]

Mm. In this example it's quite obvious. I mean if there's noone at home where the fire started but they own PEVs.

[Paul A]

33 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

noone at home

 

There might be behaviours of a lithium battery fire that make it distinctive from other fires.

___________________________________________

 

https://nypost.com/2023/02/05/e-bike-battery-fire-in-nyc-leaves-3-kids-injured-including-2-critically-fdny/

 

Esposito said firefighters, who responded to the scene in under 3 minutes, had to break down the apartment door because it had locked behind two residents who escaped.

 

The rate at which a battery fire spreads also poses a challenge.

“It doesn’t smolder,” Esposito said. “It goes from zero to 100 very, very quickly, in seconds.”

 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Paul A

[Robse]

How many of you, or in general, how many have a robot vacuum cleaner running at home, where its home is a permanent charger(!)  And how many are aware of which type of battery is used in their particular robot vacuum cleaner?   It looks like a jungle.  It seems like there are no major concerns on the part of the manufacturers about letting the product take care of itself - in fact, many recommends that you can let the robot clean while you are not at home....

Batteries? https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/battery-for-robot-vacuum.html

 

 

[Mono]

8 hours ago, Paul A said:

The FDNY are extremely concerned because recent apartment fires in NYC have been caused by e-bike lithium batteries.  These were reported in news videos.

I guess it's just that I don't believe everything that is reported in the news on face value and "extremely concerned" smells rather like a catch phrase than an objective judgement of a situation.

8 hours ago, Paul A said:

The statistics of a dramatic increase of lithium battery fires is causing the FDNY to crack down.

Without additional context, the phrase "dramatic increase" tells us little or nothing about the actual problem. It's an effective phrase to catch attention and that's what it is used for.

11 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Is it possible that it mistakingly be deemed the cause of the fire?

Of course this is possible. Any mistake in a report is obviously possible. The question is, how likely is it?

I reckon that reading the news or wikipedia is not sufficient to estimate this likelihood with reasonable certainty.

6 hours ago, Hellkitten said:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30594905/

https://scholarship.richmond.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1329&context=jolt

What is your conclusion, if you have any?

Edited March 3, 2023 by Mono

[Funky]

On 3/1/2023 at 1:38 PM, MetricUSA said:

We need solidstate battery euc NOW.... 

WRONG!!! We don't need solid-state batteries NOW.. We needed them already yesterday!

[Cerbera]

They should get more science people on it ! Less people finding out if Kestrels like cheese, and more people on solid state battery tech !

Or can't Elon sit down one night, and just sort it out for us ?  

Jokes aside though I am fairly sure we are working on that pretty much as fast as is humanly possible... and for every li-ion fire that happens in the meantime they probably get whipped a little bit harder ! COME ON !!

[Funky]

4 hours ago, Cerbera said:

and for every li-ion fire that happens in the meantime they probably get whipped a little bit harder ! COME ON !!

Any begode fans wanna rise up? With little bit of help there can be many, many fires. 

DIY euc bombs inbound... I can imagine EUC getting weaponized... No need for the "bomb" vests. EUC's fires does enough damage.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Funky

[Hellkitten]

@Mono My impression is that all types of forensics has taken a beating over the past few years, fire investigations as well. There appears to be a lot of nuance to trace evidence and interpretation is highly subjective. Experts in a courtroom can be very influential on a judge or jury leading to shaky conclusions. 
I am by no means saying forensic science is bunk. It’s just not a definitive black and white system. All investigations are not created equal. 

[GothamMike]

Bronx Supermarket burned to the ground this weekend. Video showing an ESkooter was the cause. 
thankfully no deaths.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/investigation-continues-after-lithium-ion-battery-fire-destroys-bronx-grocery-homes/ar-AA18hgq3

 

 

 

[Paul A]

44 minutes ago, GothamMike said:

Bronx Supermarket burned to the ground this weekend.

 

E-bike battery sparks 5-alarm fire in the Bronx: FDNY

PIX11 News

Mar 6, 2023

55,375 views

 

 

 

Footage shows moment lithium-ion battery in e-scooter caused large fire in the Bronx

KPRC 2 Click2Houston

551K subscribers

Mar 7, 2023

 

The New York City Fire Department (FDNY) released footage showing the fire, which they said was at a supermarket on Grand Concourse.

 

[Rawnei]

I wonder how many of these fires could have been prevented if the owners took greater care and paid attention to if battery was charging to full, what I mean is it's the method a lot of us are relying on for our wheels to detect battery problems early but I just imagine many e-bike or e-scooter owners don't do that sort of thing. Going one step further how many fires could have been prevented if these devices all had smart BMS's that would simply alert the owner when something was up.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

I wonder how many of these fires could have been prevented if the owners took greater care and paid attention to if battery was charging to full, what I mean is it's the method a lot of us are relying on for our wheels to detect battery problems early but I just imagine many e-bike or e-scooter owners don't do that sort of thing. Going one step further how many fires could have been prevented if these devices all had smart BMS's that would simply alert the owner when something was up.

Don't forget some people right out ignore that the device is showing some issues.. And still ride, keep it home.

Because fixing it cost money - which he don't have. So he chooses to ignore it.

 

In my eyes each fire is a small win in my book. (Why win? Because sooner or later they will get right out ban. Meaning new battery technology will need to be made faster.) 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Funky

[GothamMike]

Market is only 10 NYC blocks away from Fordham University's Rose Hill Campus, which has banned all PEVs. 

[GothamMike]

On 3/2/2023 at 7:33 PM, alcatraz said:

I'm curious. If a house fire spreads to a PEV causing it to pop all its cells and becoming a volcano... Is it possible that it mistakingly be deemed the cause of the fire? Maybe the landlord "knows" the fire marshall who pulls some strings....

BUT, the toxic smoke created by the LI-Ion batteries is still toxic. FDNY cares more about the toxic gasses. See my original post.

[Paul A]

From the thread: The End is Near

 

 

https://electrek.co/2023/03/07/nyc-banning-electric-bikes-without-ul-batteries-fires/

 

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Paul A

[GothamMike]

On 3/7/2023 at 1:02 PM, Paul A said:

From the thread: The End is Near

 

 

https://electrek.co/2023/03/07/nyc-banning-electric-bikes-without-ul-batteries-fires/

 

 

NYC is trying to do the right thing. Another deadly EBike fire in Astoria Queens this weekend. 
Can we blame The NewYorkers who demand takeout and groceries delivered to their door? Get outside and buy your own food! 
I spent a lot of time in Midtown this weekend, I’m a third generation New Yorker, and I was stunned at the number of e-bikes on the streets. 
Delivery people will not stop riding, there will be a black market for cheap illegal chargers and batteries. 
Apartment owners and tenants will start getting people evicted. 
 

my Solution: outdoor or garage lockup and charging stations, similar to CitiBike stations. These stations would have timers to prevent overcharging. Cameras to discourage theft. 
 

Sadly, NYC does not arrest perps for petty crimes anymore, keeping a locked bike outdoors is no guarantee you will find it in the morning.  The politics of NYC is making this worse.

[Roadpower]

6 hours ago, GothamMike said:

Another deadly EBike fire in Astoria Queens this weekend.

I went through the news looking for this story. This might be it but it is a week earlier so I'm not sure that it is. However there was some statements of interest.

https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/public-safety/2023/04/10/astoria-queens-fire-fdny-electric-bike-lithium-ion-battery-john-hodgens-laura-kavanagh-fdny
 

Quote

 

Hodgens says that the occupants did not have a chance to escape the building because an e-bike was stored near the front door.

Dan Flynn, the FDNY’s chief fire marshal, added that an after-market charger and an extension cord were used to charge the device, and the bike was likely charging when the blaze started.

"We want people to purchase chargers that are compatible with the devices that they purchased. Do not buy the cheapest option," Flynn said at a press conference after the fire. "Make sure that what you buy is compatible with the device."

In a statement, Fire Commissioner Laura Kavanagh called the fire "horrific" and noted it was "a stark reminder of the importance of an issue the FDNY has been talking about for some time: education and awareness around lithium-ion batteries."

"We know people have e-bikes and similar micro-mobility devices, and we are imploring users to follow all manufacturer safety guidelines and recommendations. We are also calling on our federal, state and local partners to move quickly on regulations that will help ensure tragedies like today's fire are prevented," Kavanagh said.

The FDNY advises against charging a lithium-ion battery under a pillow, on a bed, near a door or on a couch. They also suggest using the manufacturer's cord and power adapter made specifically for the device. When charging, batteries should never be left unattended.