Is it good to have riding protection?

[mrelwood]

On 4/7/2023 at 3:39 AM, OldFartRides said:

Some riders come from the skate scene. For some of them, injuries count as cred.

Some of them probably realize the difference between skateboard speeds and EUC speeds after the first big crash.

 Personally I’d be embarrassed if I crashed on an EUC at high or semi high speeds. And much moreso if I had hurt myself, great or not.

I always wear full gear whenever I ride further than to the parking lot (100m).

[Paul A]

Beware of doorings.

Even on clearly marked cycle lanes.

Especially alongside taxi ranks and taxis anywhere.

 

 

[superox]

20 hours ago, Paul A said:

Beware of doorings.

Even on clearly marked cycle lanes.

Especially alongside taxi ranks and taxis anywhere.

 

 

It sucks because it's hard to blame the guy opening the door. He's the passenger, he has no rear view mirrors, and the C-pillar probably obscures the cyclist even if he tried to look back. Almost no way not to door or get doored in such situation.

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, superox said:

it's hard to blame the guy opening the door.

 

https://www.thelawplace.com/faqs/who-is-at-fault-open-car-door-accident/

The law place.  A law firm.  Florida personal injury, DUI, and criminal defence attorneys.

 

Who Is at Fault in an Open Car Door Accident?

In most cases, the person who opened the door to their car before the accident happened will be held liable for the damages.

However, it can be difficult to determine fault after the car door has been hit because each person will have a different version of events that must be fully examined. 

 

If the moving motor vehicle had the right of way, then you will be held responsible for the damages.

In most cases, cars have the right to stay in motion on the roadways.

It is important for all drivers to take the time to carefully check their mirrors before they open their doors near oncoming traffic. 

 

The Person Who Opened the Car Door

Many of the states in America established a law that automatically assigns fault to the person who opened their car door in the event that an accident occurs.

It does make sense because the person who opens the car door is not moving, which means that they have the opportunity to check the road before opening their car door. 

[Stevebee]

Well that seems like an open and shut case 😁

[KiwiMark]

That taxi hadn't even pulled over to let passengers out, it was stopped in a traffic lane. Also, in most places it would be illegal to leave the scene of an accident and refuse to provide identification.  I would love to know if they got charged for anything, the guy seemed like he would have deserved any punishment possible.

[Paul A]

50 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

illegal to leave the scene of an accident and refuse to provide identification

 

___________________________________________

 

1 hour ago, KiwiMark said:

I would love to know if they got charged for anything

 

https://rideonmagazine.com.au/exit-with-care/

 

When Jane asked for the man’s details, to repair any damage to her bike—she received quite a reception.

“I was very shocked,” Jane explained

“There wasn’t any empathy, he didn’t ask whether I was okay (the cyclists were the ones asking me if I was okay) and they were acting completely contrary to how I’d expect a person to act when they’d just hit someone,” she added.

Instead of providing his details, the man placed the blame on Jane—accusing her of riding “illegally and irresponsibly” along Collins Street.

 

He and his two companions walked off.  

Not wanting to give up, and accompanied by another bike rider, Jane walked after the departing men and continued to ask for the details, which the man refused.

“I wanted them to give me contact details as is expected in any collision. I couldn’t understand why they wouldn’t do so. Also one of the other cyclists who was helping me had said to me to follow them, find out where they were going and call the police so they could be identified,” she said.

The men vehemently believed they were legally in the right, so too did Jane.

The flurry of media saw the man, a 65-year-old from Brighton meet with police to clarify his legal position.

 

He was fined for causing a hazard by opening a car door into the path of a person/vehicle (a fine of around $352).

[Punxatawneyjoe]

Karen was fine, but the guy is also a do$% for not even really apologizing. It was a taxi, you have to expect people getting in and out.

[Paul A]

http://bicyclesafe.com/doorprize.html

Last update: March 2013

Cyclists killed by dooring

This is a list of cyclists killed because of motorists opening their doors in the cyclist's path.

Spoiler

 

The Door Prize: Cyclists killed by dooring

by Rhys Southan, Ampersandy, and Michael Bluejay • Last update: March 2013

This is a list of cyclists killed because of motorists opening their doors in the cyclist's path.

They're presented both to show cyclists how important it is for them to not ride in the door zone, but also to provide ammunition to convince local governments not to do stupid things like allowing cars to park in bike lanes, as is done in Austin, Texas.

Neill Townsend  (October 5, 2012, Chicago, IL)

Age 32.  Swerved to avoid a car door opened in his path, then fell under the wheels of a passing semi truck and killed.  "This is why I don't ride a bike in the city. I'm too afraid," said Tara Werling, 18, shivering as she stood near the scene of the collision. "The bike lanes are too narrow. You're right up against the cars. If someone opens a door, you have to swerve."  And, she added, "no helmet is going to save you when you go up against a car."  Chicago Tribune

George E. Schilling  (November 26, 2010, Woodbury Heights, NJ)

 

Age 57, killed when he crashed his bicycle into the open door of a truck parked on the shoulder of Evergreen Ave.  Pronounced dead at the hospital.  The vehicle's owner was partially sitting in the truck when the collision happened.  Gloucester County Times

Marcus Ewing  (October 22, 2010, New York City, NY)

 

 

Ewing, a 27 year old social worker, was killed when a driver opened his car door and knocked the cyclist into the path of an oncoming truck.  NY Daily News

Jasmine Herron  (September 11, 2010, Brooklyn, NY)

 

 

Jasmine Herron, 23, an artist and barista, was hit when a driver in a parked car opened her door.  The impact propelled Ms. Herron into the path of a B45 bus, which struck her and then ran over her.  NY Times

Erik Fitzpatrick  (May 19, 2010, Oakland, CA)

 

 

Law student Erik Fitzpatrick, 35, was bicycling eastbound on MacArthur when he swerved to avoid the door of a black Chrysler Pacifica that was being opened by a 42-year-old Manteca woman. Fitzpatrick hit the car door, then bounced off it into the back of the bus, and was pinned underneath it. He was taken to a hospital, where he died.  SF Gate

Megan Charlop  (March 17, 2010, Bronx, NY)

 

 

Megan Charlop, 57, a public health advocate was bicycling to work when she swerved to avoid an opening car door.  A city bus struck her, killing her instantly.  Bronx News

Stanley Wang  (June 2008, Moorestown, NJ)

 

 

Stanley L. Wang, 67, former general counsel for Comcast, was bicycling east on East Main Street at 12:20 p.m.  He started to pass a parked pickup truck when the driver of the truck opened his door.  Wang hit the door and was knocked from his bike into the street, where he was struck by an eastbound car that was also passing the truck.  He was pronounced dead at Kennedy Memorial Hospital.  Biz Journals

father, 57, name withheld  (May 22, 2008, Toronto, Canada)

 

 

The 57-year-old cyclist was riding along Eglinton Ave. when a woman opened her door without looking.  Police say the man hit the door, lost control of his bike, fell onto the road and was struck by a truck shortly after 1 p.m.  He died in hospital.  The Star: Article 1, 2

David Smith  (December 5, 2007, Manhattan, NY)

 

 

Bicyclist David Smith, 63, died after he struck an open car door, fell off his bicycle and landed in the street, where he was hit by a truck.  NY Times

 

Suman Ghosh  (December 16, 2008, Calcutta)

A driver opened his door in Ghosh's path, knocking Ghosh to the ground, where a bus ran over his head. He was 38. Telegraph India

Clinton Miceli  (June 9, 2008, Chicago)

An SUV driver opened his door in Miceli's path. Micele hit the door, landed in traffic, and was run over by another vehicle and killed. He was 22 years old. Chicago Tribune

Elizabeth Padilla  (June 9, 2005, Brooklyn)

28-year old Liz Padilla was killed June 9, 2005 in Park Slope after swerving from a truck's open car door and hitting another truck. visual resistance, NY Daily News

Dell Covington  (Nov. 18, 2004, Manhattan)

At 10:45 a.m., on November 18, 2004, Bike Messenger Dell Covington, 42, of Woodhaven, Brooklyn, was riding north on Eighth Avenue near 49th Street. He tried to negotiate a narrow space between a double-parked delivery truck and a police prisoner transport van. That's when he slammed into a door opened by one of the deliverymen in the truck, according to the police account. ahalenia.com

Lucas Cox  (Sept. 16, 2002, New Orleans)

On Sept. 16, 2002, 33-year-old Lucas Cox was riding his bicycle on Camp Street, where he was forced to swerve out into traffic to avoid an opening car door. The abrupt move forced him into the path of an 18-wheel truck that killed him instantly. Best of New Orleans

Dana Laird  (July 2, 2002, Cambridge, MA)

Dana Laird, a 36 year old doctoral student at Tufts, was killed in front of 501 Massachusetts Avenue when a driver opened the door of an SUV across the bike lane.  She swerved, hit the door, fell, and was run over by a bus which killed her instantly.   BikExprt #1, #2, #3; Boston Phoenix

Keith Provost  (June 24, 2001, Vancouver)

On June 24, 2001, 40 year-old actor Keith Provost was killed during a bike ride in Vancouver when someone opened their car door without looking. Provost's bicycle slammed into open car door, he travelled another 5 meters before landing on his upper body. He died of head injuries the next day. BicycleSafe

Philip Slipakoff  (Jan. 6, 1998, New Orleans)

Killed when his bicycle was knocked into path of moving vehicle after the door of parked car swung open. Door Zone Project

Andreas Karayiannis  (Oct. 4, 1997, Cyprus)

Sixty-eight-year-old Andreas Karayiannis died in a dooring accident on October 4, 1997 in Nicosia, Cyprus. The man was cycling down Nikis avenue when a door from a parked car swung open and knocked him off balance. As Karayiannis fell to the ground, he was hit by the passing car and killed. hri.org

Brian Thang Yiean Wong  (July 18, 1997, Toronto, Ontario)

Age 29, killed when his bicycle hit an open van door and he was thrown into path of a school bus. Door Zone Project

Rosemarie Brodie  (Oct. 28, 1996, Manhattan)

Rosemarie Brodie, 33, of East 85th St., was doored off her bike and thrown into the path of a van that ran over her on York Ave. near 72nd St. in the morning of Oct. 28, 1996. cars-suck.org

Clyde Moss  (Oct. 16, 1996, Manhattan)

Clyde Moss of Brooklyn, 52, a daily bike commuter for 30 years, was doored off his bike and thrown into the path of a truck that ran over him on Church St. near Franklin St. in lower Manhattan just before 8 a.m. transalt, cars-suck.org

Eugene Chang  (Aug. 19, 1994, San Francisco)

Killed while commuting. At 9:30 a.m., a car door suddenly opened in his path. The top of the door primarily impacted his neck. Barry Popik

Chantal Malard  (June 1994, Montreal)

In June 1994, Chantal Malard, a Montreal cyclist, was killed when a motorist opened a car door into her path.  Malard hit the car door and was thrown into the path of a truck.  She died on the road. magma.co/~ocbc

Winnie Stallion  (March 6, 1989, Derby, UK)

Age 68, killed in Derby, UK. A car passed her and parked, and as she pulled out to pass the parked car, the driver opened the door and knocked her off her bike. She lapsed into a coma, and two days later she died. Door Zone Project

Samuel Hernandez  (May 18, 1987, Santa Ana, CA)

Age 19. Killed when his bicycle was knocked into traffic by open truck door, struck by passing car. Door Zone Project

 

[KiwiMark]

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

He was fined for causing a hazard by opening a car door into the path of a person/vehicle (a fine of around $352).

Good that he was fined for that, pity he wasn't charged with leaving the scene of an accident without providing his details.

Also - maybe more countries should bring in the law that they have in the Netherlands, where you must open the car door with the opposite hand (sometimes referred to as the Dutch reach). This makes you turn your body and increases the chance of seeing an approaching cyclists (would also work for scooterists and EUCers).

[techyiam]

I see many many bicyclists take risk like that, especially when they are trying to beat me on my wheel. I make all my slowdowns to minimize risks and relative speeds. Meanwhile these cyclists go full speed ahead.

To me, the scenario depicted in the video is a dooring accident waiting to happen, IMO. Personally, I would not ride in that bike lane under those conditions.

Edited April 10, 2023 by techyiam

[Paul A]

https://blockclubchicago.org/2022/02/22/a-bicyclist-won-a-6-figure-lawsuit-after-she-was-doored-advocates-say-it-can-shift-how-chicagoans-view-bike-safety/

Feb 22, 2022

 

A Bicyclist Won A 6-Figure Lawsuit After She Was Doored. Advocates Say It Can Shift How Chicagoans View Bike Safety

“I feel vindicated,” the bicyclist said after a jury ruled in her favor in a civil lawsuit last week. “I got justice.”

 

A bicyclist who was badly injured when a car passenger abruptly opened a door as she biked in the Washington Street protected bike lane was awarded nearly $213,000 by a jury — and the case shows how people are becoming more aware of bicyclist safety, transit advocates said.

 

Local chef Guadalupe Cebreros — who suffered a concussion, contusions and other injuries from the dooring — was awarded $212,976 by the jury.

The win was hailed as a huge victory for all bicyclists by advocates, who said Chicago’s bicyclists are used to not being protected after a driver injures them.

 

“Jurors understand that if you’re a driver or a passenger and you injure a bicyclist, you will be held responsible,” said Mike Keating, who represented Cebreros with fellow Keating Law attorney Catelyn Viggiano. 

 

Chicago bicyclists are accustomed to officials deciding they are to blame when someone doors them, said Kyle Lucas, co-founder of transportation advocacy group Better Streets Chicago.

He hopes the verdict “signals to people that dooring is very serious.” 

 

Keating said his team and Cebreros were forced to take the case to trial when an insurance company refused to make a settlement offer “that would have fairly compensated” Cebreros.

The amount the jury awarded to Cebreros ended up being four times what the insurance company had offered and five the times the amount suggested by the defense in closing arguments.

[NSFW]

On 4/6/2023 at 5:39 PM, OldFartRides said:

Some riders come from the skate scene. For some of them, injuries count as cred.

The root cause lies deeper, I think. I've noticed that there are two kinds of people:

One group thinks that any type of injury is utterly unacceptable, so they take significant measures to avoid them. If you've been injured, you've done something very wrong. Such people tend to avoid skateboards.

One group thinks that minor injuries are not a big deal. Scrapes and bruises heal quickly enough that they don't matter.* If you see somebody on a skateboard, it's probably someone from this group.

These people often have trouble understanding each other - partly because they assume that everyone they meet views injuries the same way they do. So, for example, the former group assumes that someone who acknowledges falling twice must be bragging but in fact they're just reporting facts. And the latter group assumes that someone who says they never fall must be bragging - but they too are just reporting the facts. 

 

* Bones heal too, but you have to stay off the bike/board/euc/skis/snowboard/whatever for 3 months, and that's really boring. 

[Cerbera]

Just now, NSFW said:

I've noticed that there are two kinds of people:

I think there is a division roughly based around age too. Those of us who are a bit older doubtless remember what it is to feel pretty much invincible when we were younger; a notion we are all disabused of sooner or later. And of course as we get older injuries DO take longer to heal, sometimes don't recover to quite the same extent as they used to and tend to hurt in a way you would very much like to minimize should it happen again ! And as a general rule the older you are the more disposable income you typically have to throw at decent gear.

[NSFW]

51 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

I think there is a division roughly based around age too. Those of us who are a bit older doubtless remember what it is to feel pretty much invincible when we were younger; a notion we are all disabused of sooner or later. And of course as we get older injuries DO take longer to heal, sometimes don't recover to quite the same extent as they used to and tend to hurt in a way you would very much like to minimize should it happen again ! 

Yep. I have noticed a similar trend as the decades have elapsed. 

[Mono]

On 4/10/2023 at 3:53 AM, NSFW said:

The root cause lies deeper, I think. I've noticed that there are two kinds of people:

One group thinks that any type of injury is utterly unacceptable, so they take significant measures to avoid them. If you've been injured, you've done something very wrong. Such people tend to avoid skateboards.

One group thinks that minor injuries are not a big deal. Scrapes and bruises heal quickly enough that they don't matter.* If you see somebody on a skateboard, it's probably someone from this group.

These people often have trouble understanding each other

To my experience, people that are highly risk avoiding even to bruises won't even ever consider using an EUC and also refuse to try it even once.

The divide I see is in two other aspects: casual bicycle versus motorcycle type usage of EUCs, and what people believe causes injuries and more importantly most effectively reduces the risk of injury.

I suspect that for reducing almost any risk, playing on the riders behavior is far more effective than playing on safety gear. That's how the original claim rang a cord: safety gear is suspected to have an adverse safety effect on riders behavior which is unfortunate when the latter were actually more relevant than the gear.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Mono

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

That's how the original claim rang a cord: safety gear is suspected to have an adverse safety effect on riders behaviour, which is unfortunate when the latter was actually more relevant than the gear.

It is true - if you are tanked up, you have confidence to do things you wouldn't if you weren't. But that is at least half the point isn't it ?! More confidence doesn't necessarily always equal 'more dangerous' or even 'more reckless' - just more protected, with the somewhat justified extra riding confidence that brings. For example, I am now more confident doing higher speeds, but the areas I consider it safe to do so haven't changed, and nor has the frequency of those high speed bursts - I am merely feeling better about doing the speeds there because of the armour.

So I bought big armour perhaps primarily so that stuff would hurt a lot less / I might be able to avoid hospital in the event of a bad cut-out, but also so that I could tackle off-road stuff that I considered 'risky' in an effort to actively improve my skills with less risk of hurting myself in the often small and inconsequential dismounts you can get on these  rutty / rooty / muddy cross-country mountain bike trails. And simply as extra insurance against cut-outs caused by machine fail or user error ! I know it won't save me all the pain, I know I am not invincible in it but I am orders of magnitude safER than I would be were it not there.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Cerbera

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Mono said:

safety gear is suspected to have an adverse safety effect on riders behavior

Well, I believe that to be true for most riders as well. BUT: Without gear I only ride distances of 100-200m, and only at speeds below 20km/h. With gear I’ve ridden distances of 55km in one go, at speeds up to 49km/h (wheel reported). And I know I’m not only one to behave this way.

I’m pretty sure that the original phrase doesn’t have this in mind. So I don’t think that people ride fast and aggressive because they wear gear. They wear gear because they want to ride fast and aggressive. Or “normally” like in my case.

 Edit: Same can be said about any safety equipment really. If I didn’t have a seatbelt in a car, I would only drive very defensively on roads with a very small amount of traffic. If I didn’t have a helmet, I wouldn’t ride a motorcycle at all. Etc.

Edited April 13, 2023 by mrelwood

[Mono]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:52 PM, mrelwood said:

Well, I believe that to be true for most riders as well. BUT: Without gear I only ride distances of 100-200m, and only at speeds below 20km/h. With gear I’ve ridden distances of 55km in one go, at speeds up to 49km/h (wheel reported). And I know I’m not only one to behave this way.

I’m pretty sure that the original phrase doesn’t have this in mind. So I don’t think that people ride fast and aggressive because they wear gear. They wear gear because they want to ride fast and aggressive. Or “normally” like in my case.

Right, I think it can well go both ways at the same time. If the speed is considerably higher than running speed, recommending gear makes perfectly sense to me too.

On 4/13/2023 at 10:52 PM, mrelwood said:

 Edit: Same can be said about any safety equipment really. If I didn’t have a seatbelt in a car, I would only drive very defensively on roads with a very small amount of traffic. If I didn’t have a helmet, I wouldn’t ride a motorcycle at all. Etc.

For seat belts our evidence doesn't seem to suggest that this is a relevant effect though. And that you ride a motorcycle only with a helmet, like I do, is IMHO purely cultural. If helmets wouldn't be a thing, you wouldn't even consider this distinction. In the end, while a helmet reduces your risks on a motorcycle indeed, in comparison to the base risk changes, the effects of a helmet are almost marginal. Meaning: riding a motorbike is regardless of gear much, much more risky than all other modes of transportation.

[Uras]

As a group I think we're pretty well padded 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Uras

[Funky]

4 hours ago, Uras said:

As a group I think we're pretty well padded 

Yup we got that thick skull and bones. No need for padding..

Been riding 3 years, have fallen also times - zero gear, no problem. 

 

(Jokes aside.. I'm only going 20-30km/h speeds. If one where to go faster - you should gear up.)

Edited December 9, 2023 by Funky

[BKW]

Go 50 mph on your EUC without pads, jump off, then let us know!

[Aztek]

7 hours ago, Funky said:

Jokes aside.. I'm only going 20-30km/h speeds. If one where to go faster - you should gear up.

Falling unprotected with this speed is nasty 100% of times and can be fatal too.

[Funky]

2 hours ago, Aztek said:

Falling unprotected with this speed is nasty 100% of times and can be fatal too.

Meh.. So be it. Any fall is nasty Sherlock Holmes.

Only times i have fallen is in winter. And in winter time i'm going 2x slower. Because - you know.. Sliding, slipping, can't take any tight turn at high speed. Most turns nowadays i'm taking at running speed or even slower. ("Falls" more like slides sideways at low speed..) Without snow/ice i will only fall when euc stops working.

- So be it.

Yeah - i may sound snobby "i'm not gonna fall", "falling is not in my mindset", etc.. I know how it sounds. The thing is, i only commute to work. Ride same paths always. And my commute is 4km round trip. And i ride VERY defensively. I see maybe 3-5 people while commuting and i don't mess with cars, ride only sidewalks. So... Only time i'm gonna fall is when wheel stops working - so be it. 

I'm still using wrist guards. As it's the only gear i never leave my house without. As i know most falls happen on hands. At least in my case every fall has happened on my hands. While sliding on ice/snow. Can't talk much about falling in summer, as i have not fallen once after learning stage..

 

 

I personally don't know if "winter" falls even count? As they aren't like "cut-out" falls. (I don't really count the winter falls.. As they are nothing. You slide/fall - get up - hop on and continue riding.)

Edited December 9, 2023 by Funky

[Funky]

3 hours ago, BKW said:

Go 50 mph on your EUC without pads, jump off, then let us know!

Wut? Haven't you heard? You need to drink Red Bull. So if you fall - you grew wings and fly away.. Simple. 

But i prefer Monster Energy. When you fall - you wake up in hell. 666