Smaller wheels - will they ever make a comeback?

[techyiam]

On 2/12/2023 at 5:49 AM, Cerbera said:

If anything, that has become more important with a bigger wheel, where it's quite easy to be going faster you think, so I like to check...

Well, for riders who are no longer beginners, and are riding on wheels that are stable and planted, it is definitely easy to stay below 30+ km/h when there is no traffic around.

Edited February 14, 2023 by techyiam

[Funky]

Most of my "job" rides i don't even record.. Because it's ~4km trip.. As for "fun" rides where i do normally 25-35km range. I only record those. Because at "fun" rides i'm going much faster..

You could say that HALF of my ridden distance is without the app.

[Rich Sam]

Same as others, my v11 and RS I used EUC world mostly because of range anxiety.  Recorded trips and what not.  Sherman very RARELY hooked up to phone.  Most things accessible through the display, no real reason 2.  That and I got a bit lazy hehe

I love the app! I just got lazy.

 

[KiwiMark]

On 2/13/2023 at 3:05 AM, Funky said:

Most of my "job" rides i don't even record.. Because it's ~4km trip.. As for "fun" rides where i do normally 25-35km range. I only record those. Because at "fun" rides i'm going much faster..

You could say that HALF of my ridden distance is without the app.

I do more 'fun' rides of longer distance that are recorded and I often record my supermarket runs because I want the speed on my phone. But sometimes I do a very short ride to get something and it just isn't worth worrying about running the app. So it is similar for me, a very short ride would generally not be recorded on the EUC world app.

[Funky]

10 hours ago, KiwiMark said:

I do more 'fun' rides of longer distance that are recorded and I often record my supermarket runs because I want the speed on my phone. But sometimes I do a very short ride to get something and it just isn't worth worrying about running the app. So it is similar for me, a very short ride would generally not be recorded on the EUC world app.

Yeah as i'm going 2x slower on the "job" rides.. (Because i'm not geared - only wrist guards.) I know i'm not overburdening the wheel. As for speed i'm great at telling how fast i'm going. First ~10 rides i had app open to see how fast i'm going. All times where right around what speed i wanted to go. (Have a specific self set "max" speed while not wearing gear.)

 

I have to wait for train.. So i don't really need to speed. I leave 5 mins faster and enjoy slow running speed ride. 1 km to train.. 3 km to job. Vice versa.   Relaxing slow ride..

Edited February 14, 2023 by Funky

[Funky]

12 hours ago, Rich Sam said:

Same as others, my v11 and RS I used EUC world mostly because of range anxiety.  Recorded trips and what not.  Sherman very RARELY hooked up to phone.  Most things accessible through the display, no real reason 2.  That and I got a bit lazy hehe

I love the app! I just got lazy.

 

Also as more trips you do, you already know how far you can go without even looking at the app.  That's how you lose the range anxiety - which i never had.. I have to much range.  

[KiwiMark]

5 hours ago, Funky said:

\As for speed i'm great at telling how fast i'm going. First ~10 rides i had app open to see how fast i'm going. All times where right around what speed i wanted to go. (Have a specific self set "max" speed while not wearing gear.)

I don't need to have the speed on my phone when riding to the supermarket, I use EUC World so I can see my speed only because I want to. This isn't for the closest supermarket, it is a cheaper supermarket a bit further away and I have set personal speed records on that short ride. To the closest supermarket and back I just don't find it worth worrying about EUC World. Similarly, heading to a petrol station 1km away to fill my 5 Litre container - not worth putting on my arm band and attaching the phone and running EUC World.

I've also chosen to go to the supermarket the furthest from me to pick up a couple of items, just because I wanted to make a decent ride of it. But then it is more a fun ride that includes grabbing a couple things from a supermarket, rather than a quick supermarket run.

[Jonny727272]

I'm recovering from a concussion and knee surgery, but I'm really pining for a smaller suspension wheel from Kingsong. 

I have an 18XL with 3k miles on it and I love it. The T4 looks good, but it's begode and has it's own issues. 

Since having my big crash and getting a bad concussion, my desire to go fast, 30+ mph, has gone down a lot. I'm considering the molicel S18, but would prefer a 16" wheel for offroad purposes. 

Oh well, I still got at least 4 months of recovery on my knee until I can even ride again. 

[Funky]

So.. Anyone have heard any rumors about any new lightweight (sub ~20kg ~45lbs) wheels coming to market?

There where rumors about KS-S14 coming.. But who know if, or when it will show up. Aside of it - anything else at all?

 

I kind of want new wheel..  Aside of Begode A2, there really isn't anything.. (If you don't count the 20XX-2018 models. Of course there's nothing wrong with them. I just don't want to exchange one old model for another old model.)

 

Side note: When will they stop ignoring lightweight market? And start making new models? Every single manufacturer have released more than 3 top notch performing wheels in past 1-2 years. But where's the lightweight? And i don't care the "market have spoken" ordeal. It hasn't! They keep making only big wheels - naturally they will only sell.. Because nothing lightweight is been made - nothing is being sold in that category. Again if you ignore older models. And even if you don't ignore. Most people want something new and shiny. Not an old model. Especially if the new models have real smart BMS, water rating and things like that.

 

TL;DR - I want new lightweight wheels. 

[Circuitmage]

@Funky I think you really have to ask yourself if weight is more important than speed. Also, other features like speakers, LEDs, suspension, etc. Lots going on right now.

I picked up the IM V10F this summer, to get another light weight wheel, but it is slightly underpowered compared to KS 18L/XL. From my comparisons, that is the closest you will find. It is slightly more nimble than the 18L, which makes for fun riding, but after 30 mins of riding it powers down dramatically.

I'm now looking at the KS S19 for a bit more power and speed, and I like the speakers and LEDs, but not in a rush to pick it up.

Unless we get a big jump in battery performance , I think we are stuck with heavier wheels. Although I did see a KS basketball wheel that is very small...very very small. If you only have a few hundred meters to ride, that would do it for you.

[Circuitmage]

@Funky

 

[Funky]

54 minutes ago, Circuitmage said:

@Funky I think you really have to ask yourself if weight is more important than speed. Also, other features like speakers, LEDs, suspension, etc. Lots going on right now.

I picked up the IM V10F this summer, to get another light weight wheel, but it is slightly underpowered compared to KS 18L/XL. From my comparisons, that is the closest you will find. It is slightly more nimble than the 18L, which makes for fun riding, but after 30 mins of riding it powers down dramatically.

I'm now looking at the KS S19 for a bit more power and speed, and I like the speakers and LEDs, but not in a rush to pick it up.

Unless we get a big jump in battery performance , I think we are stuck with heavier wheels. Although I did see a KS basketball wheel that is very small...very very small. If you only have a few hundred meters to ride, that would do it for you.

Yeah - if i step on that "basketball", both pedals would break off.  It's isn't an EUC - it's a gimmick. 

Don't care about "features". I like them bare-bone. Sure screen would be sweet, but not needed. Suspension - if it's 14/16" wheel sure, could give a try.. (If it's solid built suspension, that wont break after first year, or 3000km driven.)

30km/h speed is my sweet spot. (Normally ride around 20km/h while commuting to work. As i don't gear up. And ride only sidewalks. When i was going for "fun" rides, i was going 35-40km/h.) No point talking about range, as i need daily only ~5km range. I already charge my 18xl once every 2 weeks. I even once rode 3 weeks every workday to work without charging. My battery was only ~37% after 3rd week. (2 weeks it drops down to ~55%, so i charge it every second week.)

As i don't go for "Fun" rides anymore, i would gladly exchange for something lighter/weaker. Only new model. V8/10, Teslas, KS14/16, etc doesn't interest me. (I personally don't see point exchanging for them. Sure i save ~2-4kg weight. But otherwise it's same old model - boring.)

I was eyeing A2 for while (when i thought it was 19kg). When i found out it was 21kg in reality. I did  and forgot about it. (Weight to performance = doo-doo scheisse.)

 

I was looking at S19 also - awesome hollow bored motor. Sadly not a fan of suspension and "open" design it has. Also no real smart BMS and water rating - no point getting it. A2 also didn't have real smart BMS, but it at least have awesome honeycomb pedals that are alone worth 200$, of it's complete 1400$ price. (My country prices.) And big tire and somewhat waterproof. Sad that it wasn't 19kg. 6kg weight savings over my 18xl would have been sweet. And awesome new design with kickstand. (Each has their own worth/not worth buying reasons..) A2 was the closest EUC i wanted to buy. If only it was 19kg!!! False marketing..

Edited October 17, 2023 by Funky

[Circuitmage]

@Funky There is an adult , I think he came in at 85kg, that reviewed the basketball on YouTube.

I'm putting about 10 miles a day on my 18L now, just getting to work and back. Charging about every 2 days. Once I hit that 40% drop, time to recharge for full power.

The V10F pedal height is slightly higher than my 18L, and I actually scraped the pedals on one fast turn I made. That was the closest in 2 years I have come to wiping out. It does make for a slightly different ride.

Yeah...looks like I missed the APC rating on the S19...no water protection? Hmmm..

[Circuitmage]

@Funky Yes it does;

 

[Funky]

13 minutes ago, Circuitmage said:

@Funky Yes it does;

 

Duck i got S18 and S19 mixed.. I would never look at S19 - is completely shit in my eyes. Even S16 is way, way better. (Both being over 30kg it's no go for me.)

If i would be you - would also re-watch that video.   In that test some water got inside. (There was a talk about that in S19 topic.)

 

I also got hextech pedals - they are ~2Cm higher (shorter "L" brackets) compared to original 18xl pedals. Also 5mm M/C tire height added. Don't really care about pedal height. My commute is almost straight path. Stop trying to sell my V10.  I don't want a copy of a 18xl.. Yes - to my it's almost the same wheel. Not worth getting new pedals, new M/C winter/summer tire.. Restudding it..

Edited October 17, 2023 by Funky

[Circuitmage]

@FunkyNot trying to sell you anything. Not sure what you want then, if you already outfitted your 18XL. Sounds like you just want the dream; bigger , faster , light-weight.

Yes, I saw the S19 moisture in the video, but they were also spraying it pretty hard for a "10 minute" water test. If rain is coming down like that , I'd probably get under cover.
I can make it to the train and my house both in under 10 mins. 

As for the S16....the big problem for me with that wheel is the "16". 

 

[Phonoman]

You need to import ewheels version of A2. They at least still had info on their website that it's 19kg 

The A2 doesn't feel too heavy and is fine to carry up and down the stairs even for my 4th floor.  

Nikola feels like a chore to bring up and does get exhausting + is not comfortable. A2 feels totally fine to haul up in one hand. Feels closer to V8F than the Nikola even though weight wise it's the other way around.  

Edited October 17, 2023 by Phonoman

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Circuitmage said:

 Not sure what you want then

As for the S16....the big problem for me with that wheel is the "16". 

 

What hasn't been made! Duh.. I want all bells and whistles (Real smart BMS, water rating, hollow bore motor - strong axle, etc..) Made in light wheel. It doesn't need to go fast and far..

Small lightweight are made for short rides. Aka last mileage wheels. Take V8, KS14/16, Tesla, etc.. Just add all the bells and whistles. (Things that actually matter! Not the led lights, speakers, etc..) For reference those wheels are under 20kg. (Some even under 15kg..) Add all those "goodies" and it could be banger of a wheel right on 20kg mark.

Not everyone wants or needs those 30kg+ (Or even better 40kg+) wheels that go 50km/h+ for 100km ranges.. I would gladly pay 2000$ for ks16s with all the goodies. (I know KS-S16 is 2000$ - who cares.. Some would pay 2x the amount for lightness. And even if it had worse top speed or power.)

 

Why is the 16" problem? If the rumored S14 comes out. I may go from 18" to 14". It having suspension - people have said it would be more comfortable ride than non-suspension 18". And if that S14 has big/fat tire. It real diameter could be closer to 16". (Example KS16S - 16x2.125" tire.) Meaning you don't really lose anything, just gain more comfortable ride.

1 hour ago, Phonoman said:

Nikola feels like a chore to bring up and does get exhausting + is not comfortable. A2 feels totally fine to haul up in one hand. Feels closer to V8F than the Nikola even though weight wise it's the other way around.  

Shitty carry handle vs good carry handle - day and night difference. When i was buying my 18xl. I was choosing in store between 16x and 18xl. I went with 18xl simply because more rounded handle - better carry handle. 16x had "boxy" handle..

Edited October 17, 2023 by Funky

[Circuitmage]

@Funky From the things I have hit, and the various wheels I have been on  (from 6" to 11" to 14" to 16"), I know I need at least 18". I know a lot of people would be happy with 16" or smaller, but as you go down, you limit the surface structures you can ride on. Ever take roller skates or in-line skates on a paved road? It's horrible. Why? Because those small wheels get caught on everything. A 1 cm pebble could put you on the ground. Even up to 6" a 1cm pebble is a problem. 

Probably not as much of an issue if you go slower as you reduce wheelbase, but I personally don't want to be going 3mph.

For me, wheelbase is the 1st issue.

As for handles, I must say the initial reviews of the S19 look pretty good. Anytime I can see where some effort went into design, it puts a smile on my face. The only negative I have heard about the S19 handle is that it may flop up during rides. A very small magnet can fix that issue. Heck, I'd even do it myself. But the trolley on the 18L and 18XL , although usable, is very disappointing. I immediately for months had issues with the mechanical switch on my 18L, to the point I had to disable it in SW. I never use the lift sensor. And within about 2 years I started having mechanical issues with the handle. Sometimes it takes me 3 or 4 tries to push the thing in now. It's just too much mechanical action that does not last long. The simple design of the S19 handle is a breath of fresh air. And if the touch sensor works, that is also a big improvement.


 

[OldSolo]

I just weighed my A2 w/ the new Pirelli Angel street tire = 45.4# = 20.6kg.  When I unpacked it I could tell it was heavier than I would have liked.  Older wheels were less robust & didn't have as much battery, etc.  Having had this thing apart enough to mount a new tire, unless there is some way of substantially lightening the motor, I am not sure WHERE further weight loss would occur. 

[zaft]

3 hours ago, OldSolo said:

unless there is some way of substantially lightening the motor, I am not sure WHERE further weight loss would occur. 

I agree, even the mten4 has a heavy hub to it. Heavy magnets and metal simply weigh more. Robust and strong, or…. I know a lot of people were disappointed in the a2 because they believed it’d be similar to the mcm5 v2 in specs. Not a single wheel has been lighter in the same sIze-to-performance, to my knowledge.

It’d be super cool to see a composite structural component in these wheels. 

[Funky]

6 hours ago, Circuitmage said:

But the trolley on the 18L and 18XL , although usable, is very disappointing. I immediately for months had issues with the mechanical switch on my 18L, to the point I had to disable it in SW. I never use the lift sensor. And within about 2 years I started having mechanical issues with the handle. Sometimes it takes me 3 or 4 tries to push the thing in now. It's just too much mechanical action that does not last long. The simple design of the S19 handle is a breath of fresh air. And if the touch sensor works, that is also a big improvement.

 

You MAY have screwed the handle screws to tightly - it doesn't move/slide.. My dad did the same thing on his KS16S, the handle didn't want to go back in position - he had to hit it in..

Redoing the side mount screws (inside the case, where the handle bars is fastened to wheel case) = all fixed. It need to be free, so it can move/slide... ALSO the bottom spring can be regulated to make the handle move back in position stronger or weaker. 

I have had zero problems over last 3 years, same for me dad when he fixed the screws.. And we use the lift function very much. At least 10 times per day while carrying. Up/Down.. We don't trolley, carry or ride.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Funky

[Funky]

4 hours ago, OldSolo said:

I just weighed my A2 w/ the new Pirelli Angel street tire = 45.4# = 20.6kg.  When I unpacked it I could tell it was heavier than I would have liked.  Older wheels were less robust & didn't have as much battery, etc.  Having had this thing apart enough to mount a new tire, unless there is some way of substantially lightening the motor, I am not sure WHERE further weight loss would occur. 

Original weight should be ~21.6kg. So with new tire it may.. be lighter.

[OldSolo]

12 hours ago, Funky said:

Original weight should be ~21.6kg. So with new tire it may.. be lighter.

No, the tires are almost identical in mass - the number you quote is too high.  "Should be... "?  No, it is what it is.

From your obsession with weight, am i correct in that it is solely about carrying it up to the 4th floor where you live?  I would not want to lug any of them up that!  But I am a little surprised as it seems that if one keeps the wheel tilted forward, it will climb the stairs under it's own power - mostly anyway.  Now I don't have a trolley handle (but am exploring options to make one, with a quick release if possible) but it looks like that would make going upstairs much easier.

[Funky]

29 minutes ago, OldSolo said:

No, the tires are almost identical in mass - the number you quote is too high.  "Should be... "?  No, it is what it is.

From your obsession with weight, am i correct in that it is solely about carrying it up to the 4th floor where you live?  I would not want to lug any of them up that!  But I am a little surprised as it seems that if one keeps the wheel tilted forward, it will climb the stairs under it's own power - mostly anyway.  Now I don't have a trolley handle (but am exploring options to make one, with a quick release if possible) but it looks like that would make going upstairs much easier.

I live in 3rd floor, carry 2-4 times per day. Aside of that - need to carry it everywhere else. Carry it in train.. Workplace where ground is full of sharp metal shavings..

Also A2 should be ~21.1kg, not 21.6kg i made a mistake. 20-21kg same thing. Still not 19kg as marketed.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Funky