Some has a Firesak .... I have a Firebox :-)

[Robse]

First of all - a RS19 (europe edition with LG50MT) needs attention all the
time. I don't want that thing to hurt my family and burn down my house.
To get peace in mind, it must be stored and charged in a safe place.
And that's not inside my house.  So what to do? Buy a Firesak? hmmn...
a Firesak is not a good storage for the wheel: outside where it's cold
and moist.   And if theres fire in a Firesak, all the toxic smoke will still
spread throughout the house.

So what to do?

I build my own Firebox.

Materials:
Fireproof plasterboard
OSB boards
Planed battens
Chipboard screws
Plasterboard screws
Good exterior paint
Waterproof wood glue
Insulation (Rockwool)
A piece of plastic sewer pipe
and a piece of flamingo.
A few hinges.
A couple of power outlets and 5m electrical cable
Little electrical heater (with thermostatic control)
An cheap wireless weather station (to keep an eye on
the temperature in the box )

Expenses approx:  1500,- Dkr  =  $200,-

First of all the test:
A piece of plasterboard got blastet for 10 minutes with my
weed burner.  Flame temperature ca. 1200-1400° Celcius.
Take a look at the picture; The frontside has lost the cardboard
surface, but nothing else happened.  The backside was a little
hot, but not more than i could touch it with my fingers without
being burned:  Approved.

Construction time.
Duration: a week.  Most of the time was spent painting due
to the drying time

In case of fire and "explosion"; The pressure can escape through
the sewer pipe which is held closed with a custom piece of
flamingo that will easily be blown out by the pressure before the
lid will lift (18 Kg heavy) and serves as an explosion port.

Whats in the box will burn if there's a fire.  It will be like an oven.
And that's also the plan.  Let it burn.  It's outside, away from
my family and house.   I don't expect that i would be able to save
anything if terminal runaway occurs.  

If anyone is interested, unfortunatly  I cannot offer a building plan,
as there is only a sketch available - the rest is located in my brain.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

A mini EUC house, with a wheel heater

1 hour ago, Robse said:

LG50MT

M50T you mean? Those are the dangerous ones, so good you did this.

[Robse]

28 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

50T you mean? Those are the dangerous ones, so good you did this.

Yes 😉

[KNZ]

I'm mildly disappointed you didn't call it "Fireshak" but I'll let it slide due to the great design 

[yoos]

Great solution for those who have an outdoors place to put it! I guess this would also work quite well on a balcony and protect the outside from a bombardment of burning battery cells. By the way, is the material solid enough to withstand such shots ? Looks like it is.

Do you plan to non-stop heat the box once winter comes? iirc, the proper temperatures for harmless charging are rather high, ~20C or something (more restrictive than discharging temperature)

Another problem would be moisture - if you ride in winter you know that the EUC collects a ton of water/snow/slush which will fill the box, guaranteeing an unhealthy 100% humidity which would eventually corrode everything that isn't airtight in the EUC.

If I remember correctly, many people add ventilation to their fireboxes (typically metal boxes). But this would further compromise heating. You need a smart algorithm which switches between heating/charging/ventilation to cover all aspects

I would suggest adding a fuse/circuit breaker where the cable exits your house -- in the case of fire the cable/outlet/charger/battery are almost certain to create a short. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by yoos
added ventilation question

[Robse]

5 hours ago, yoos said:

Great solution for those who have an outdoors place to put it! I guess this would also work quite well on a balcony and protect the outside from a bombardment of burning battery cells. By the way, is the material solid enough to withstand such shots ? Looks like it is.

Do you plan to non-stop heat the box once winter comes? iirc, the proper temperatures for harmless charging are rather high, ~20C or something (more restrictive than discharging temperature)

Another problem would be moisture - if you ride in winter you know that the EUC collects a ton of water/snow/slush which will fill the box, guaranteeing an unhealthy 100% humidity which would eventually corrode everything that isn't airtight in the EUC.

If I remember correctly, many people add ventilation to their fireboxes (typically metal boxes). But this would further compromise heating. You need a smart algorithm which switches between heating/charging/ventilation to cover all aspects

I would suggest adding a fuse/circuit breaker where the cable exits your house -- in the case of fire the cable/outlet/charger/battery are almost certain to create a short. 

Thank u some good ideas for improvements.

I don't know if it's "shot proof" - but its solid, rock solid, all in all about 80 kg.  When i was about to finish the project i realized, that i had to install wheels... otherwise i wouldn't be able to move the box.   I have dimensioned so that the box can fit through a standard door - but drag it upstairs to an apartment - noway   then it has to be built on site.

The reason why ventilation is important in steel cabinets is that the are not insulated and tend to collect condensation water on the cold surfaces (inside) - I don't have those problems.    But it would be nice to develop a small rasberry based controller that could do some venting when the humidity requires it, and turn of the heat in the meantime, good idea

My box is connected to a separate electrical fuse group, so nothing happens if all installations in the box melts and short cuts, only that group will be disconnected.

Yes, i plan to heat all winter, already done some testing; The box is so well isolated, that now when the temperature drops to 5- 10 degrees at night, i can see, that only approx 300 watts is used to keep the temp at approx 20 degrees (celsius) (for 8 hours) 

Moisture is no problem for me - never ever ride in rain (or snow)  Snow is for skiing and snow scooters with belt drive , not for wheels, and riding in rain?  I don't think that's funny at all.  But if someone likes this, then "water on the floor" must be taken into account; the surface must be sealed, have a slope and drainage, maybe next box i build

[Spaghetteh]

1 hour ago, Robse said:

But it would be nice to develop a small rasberry based controller that could do some venting when the humidity requires it, and turn of the heat in the meantime, good idea

Alternatively, since the space is small and somewhat sealed, you might be able to get away with using a passive dehumidifier and a wi-fi enabled hygrometer that can alert you when the humidity is getting too high.

[Funky]

I built also something like that. (Doh in metal cabinet, and wheel drives itself out.) Finished it last week.  I also will post a thread some day. Doh i keep mine next to my bed. I wanted something that will "contain" the flames if nobody is at home and fire starts.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Funky

[Miko.cz]

Nice idea.
Just these small heaters are sometimes source of fires itself.
I would add wireless smoke (better smoke+temp) fire detector to your intruder alarm system (if you have). Its good to know when and where it starts when someone calls you about "some" smoke somewhere in your property, so you can locate the exact origin.
And if possible - circuit breaker outside the box that can shut down the AC power (manualy or by fire alarm signal), you probably dont know who and how will react on fire.

[Unipilot69]

I've built these type of boxes for my radio control aircraft batteries. I'm planning on doing the same for my electric unicycles. Thank you for posting your project. 

[Cerbera]

Not having a 'better half' to complain about it, I've gone for the 'low effort but effective' approach of using the various bricks and tiles that my builder / landlord leaves piled up against my garden wall to assemble an indoor kiln type enclosure in which I keep my UAV batteries. I haven't felt the need to do the same for the MS3 so far, but will probably be building a larger, 'roll-in' version of that to trammel the Master !

Edited September 7, 2022 by Cerbera

[PourUC]

should add an auto fire supressant system that fills the container with non-flammable gas.

[Funky]

14 minutes ago, PourUC said:

should add an auto fire supressant system that fills the container with non-flammable gas.

Gas that will go out of the box "vent" hole.. And you need the "vent" hole for the battery gases to go out of the box. When they are starting to burn, if not all the box will become big BOMB. Because of so said "gasses".

Edited September 7, 2022 by Funky

[yoos]

17 minutes ago, PourUC said:

non-flammable gas.

not sure what you mean. Air is non-flammable already. Perhaps you meant oxygen-free gas to prevent the chemical reaction that is fire? That might not help much since the thermal runaway process does not rely on fire if I am not mistaken.

[Funky]

On 9/7/2022 at 9:42 PM, yoos said:

not sure what you mean. Air is non-flammable already. Perhaps you meant oxygen-free gas to prevent the chemical reaction that is fire? That might not help much since the thermal runaway process does not rely on fire if I am not mistaken.

Same reaction as puting wire from battery one end to other -+ The battery starts to heat up and can explode. (I think fire starts because of the reaction in batteries.. If i'm not wrong.)

Edited September 23, 2022 by Funky

[Robse]

The only action that would help is to flood the box with water.  I have actually had in mind to make an automatic filling system - in case of fire.  But then i also got nervous that such a system could fail and fill up the box by mistake (hard/software failure)  regardless, the contents will be destroyed.

[Funky]

11 minutes ago, Robse said:

The only action that would help is to flood the box with water.  I have actually had in mind to make an automatic filling system - in case of fire.  But then i also got nervous that such a system could fail and fill up the box by mistake (hard/software failure)  regardless, the contents will be destroyed.

Could always add a sprinkler system setup. And drill many/small holes for the water to escape the box. And simply put bag over euc. (It would be like heavy rain.)

At least if it fails and starts "raining" euc will be still safe.

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Funky

[Robse]

The problems with these small holes is that, 1:  my fine insulation will not work, and it will cost $$$ to heat up the box, 2: in case of fire; if the water escapes, the box will never get filled ... so the fire may not stop.  There are no easy solutions with our beloved wheels

[Paul g]

I like your idea. I am planning to make something out of metal for my wheel. Maybe if you could make a side door would be much easier to put it in and take it out? 

[Funky]

31 minutes ago, Robse said:

The problems with these small holes is that, 1:  my fine insulation will not work, and it will cost $$$ to heat up the box, 2: in case of fire; if the water escapes, the box will never get filled ... so the fire may not stop.  There are no easy solutions with our beloved wheels

Yeah forgot about the heater in your setup..

For my setup i don't intend to stop/fight the fire.  I will have a contained bonfire in my room. Quickly open window, before running next room and closing door behind. (Won't be staying in the same room - toxic smoke.)

My hope is that the batteries won't explode all together at once. But will go off 1 by 1 or so.. Less gas explosions and overall heat. (Ofc i know the heat will be extreme in anyway..)

6 minutes ago, Paul g said:

I like your idea. I am planning to make something out of metal for my wheel. Maybe if you could make a side door would be much easier to put it in and take it out? 

I used this: https://www.se.com/ww/en/product/NSYCRN86300P/spacial-crn-plain-door-with-mount-plate-h800xw600xd300-ip66-ik10-ral7035-/

And built drive in shelf on rollers. The shelf drives out - i put my euc on the stand - and i push it in with my feet. The box is almost the same size as EUC - perfect.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Funky

[Heyzeus]

On 9/3/2022 at 9:42 AM, KNZ said:

I'm mildly disappointed you didn't call it "Fireshak" but I'll let it slide due to the great design 

The B-52's lesser known song fireshak just never really caught on and gained the popularity it deserved

[Paul g]

24 minutes ago, Funky said:

Yeah forgot about the heater in your setup..

For my setup i don't intend to stop/fight the fire.  I will have a contained bonfire in my room. Quickly open window, before running next room and closing door behind. (Won't be staying in the same room - toxic smoke.)

My hope is that the batteries won't explode all together at once. But will go off 1 by 1 or so.. Less gas explosions and overall heat. (Ofc i know the heat will be extreme in anyway..)

I used this: https://www.se.com/ww/en/product/NSYCRN86300P/spacial-crn-plain-door-with-mount-plate-h800xw600xd300-ip66-ik10-ral7035-/

And built drive in shelf on rollers. The shelf drives out - i put my euc on the stand - and i push it in with my feet. The box is almost the same size as EUC - perfect.

Hey, this is luxury fireproof box. Please bring more details so we can begode you 😄

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Paul g said:

Hey, this is luxury fireproof box. Please bring more details so we can begode you 😄

Haha, i see what you did there.  

I finished the box it self. (Rockwool whole inside, fastened the box on some bricks, to protect ground from fire + counter weight when wheel comes out, so box doesn't tip over. The rolling shelf. Double layered door with misaligned air/vent holes.) Still need to finish placing rockwool around the box back/side. And making it look "better", by coloring rockwool.

I will make a post next week or so. Named the "HotBox for a Wheelie" "Flame Bunker" or something like that. Still thinking about the name.  Hot metal box.

 

Sorry @Robse for stealing your tread.  

[Robse]

4 hours ago, Funky said:

 

Sorry @Robse for stealing your tread.  

Nono - that's not stealing - the whole idea of showcasing my box was not to show of my skills, (hehe ) it is meant as an inspiration to others to show an opportunity to secure themselves against the fire hazard from our wheels.  Therefore; The more info, talk, ideas, pictures in this thread, the better.  I am happy with that.  And if this thread can save just one person (or more) from injury by fire, then it's "mission complete"

[PourUC]

15 hours ago, Funky said:

Gas that will go out of the box "vent" hole.. And you need the "vent" hole for the battery gases to go out of the box. When they are starting to burn, if not all the box will become big BOMB. Because of so said "gasses".

You can have vent holes, you just need more pressure generated by the fire suppressant system than atmospheric pressure.

15 hours ago, yoos said:

not sure what you mean. Air is non-flammable already. Perhaps you meant oxygen-free gas to prevent the chemical reaction that is fire? That might not help much since the thermal runaway process does not rely on fire if I am not mistaken.

air is not non-flammable already. non-flammable means that the gas cannot catch fire. Air whilst it's mostly nitrogen... as you pointed out, contains oxygen which is the flammable component.

In terms of the product that you would use. 
Sticker: 

Read page 9 of this PDF to understand the component of fire management that I am talking about:
https://www.fia.uk.com/static/2a999c49-760b-47e3-b02f96a2ca89ecd9/Guidance-Document-on-Li-Ion-Battery-Fires-12-20-v1.pdf

Thermal Runaway is the process that leads to a fire, that fire can then damage other items. With no fire you just have heat that is much harder to spread to other items. I am not saying get rid of the box and JUST use a fire suppressant.