Can Someone Provide Detailed Steps to Measure Charger Voltage

[Zutto]

I read this post https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/22351-what-to-do-battery-not-charging-to-100/

 

I have a multimeter.  I just don't know where to put the probes.  I could only find a video online of measure a laptop charger.  Where do I put the positive and negative probes of my multimeter on the charger (image below)

Edited June 28, 2022 by Zutto
more details

[Zutto]

link to the type of charger I have https://imgur.com/a/nCpzPbn.  

[tudordewolf]

As per this thread: 

Pin 1 is positive, pin 5 is negative. If you look closely at the plug you can see they are numbered.

[Zutto]

Thank you so much for this.  Worked like a charm after an embarrassing 3 minutes not realizing my multimeter was on HOLD.  

 

Unfortunately I learned that the charger had 100v, which probably means there's an issue with one of my euc's battery packs.  It's a Nikola+ 100V.  It only charges to 96.5V now (~85%).  Does anyone know if there's a danger in riding the wheel other than the reduced range and initial top speeds?

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

1 hour ago, Zutto said:

Thank you so much for this.  Worked like a charm after an embarrassing 3 minutes not realizing my multimeter was on HOLD.  

 

Unfortunately I learned that the charger had 100v, which probably means there's an issue with one of my euc's battery packs.  It's a Nikola+ 100V.  It only charges to 96.5V now (~85%).  Does anyone know if there's a danger in riding the wheel other than the reduced range and initial top speeds?

Are you using a fast charger ?if so have you tried switching back to your stock charger 

[Chriull]

4 hours ago, Zutto said:

Unfortunately I learned that the charger had 100v, which probably means there's an issue with one of my euc's battery packs.  It's a Nikola+ 100V.  It only charges to 96.5V now (~85%).  Does anyone know if there's a danger in riding the wheel other than the reduced range and initial top speeds?

Yes, as written in the link you cited you have dead/dying liion cells in your packs. Although they take quite some beating, they definitely impose an increased fire risk in this state.

Check which, or if both batteries are dead before replacing/repairing them.

[RagingGrandpa]

On 6/28/2022 at 10:20 PM, Zutto said:

Nikola+ 100V.  It only charges to 96.5V now

There is a fault in one or both of the packs.

The next steps are:

1. Determine if you can recharge above 100V with one pack removed. (This identifies which of the two packs has the fault.)
   (Take care not to reconnect both packs if they are at different voltages!)
2. Carefully remove the blue shrink and measure individual cell voltages inside the faulty pack. (This should be done by someone who is confident with testing live connections safely.)
3. If any cells are discovered at less than 2 volts, dispose of the pack. Otherwise, manually balance the cells, and retry charging to 100V. (Again, best done by an experienced person.) 

On 6/28/2022 at 10:20 PM, Zutto said:

Does anyone know if there's a danger in riding the wheel

Yes. There is a danger. Don't ride it.

Discharging the pack by riding the EUC will force current through the over-discharged cells, which destroys the cells and releases heat, sometimes leading to violent fires.

Please also don't ride with only one pack installed. A single pack is not designed to supply the amount of current that the Nikola controller can draw, and excessive current can damage the cells and their connections. Sorry  
 

Edited July 1, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[Tawpie]

Just an additional caution.

If in @RagingGrandpa's step 1 above, you are able to get 1 battery to charge to 100V, but the second battery is not able to charge to 100V, then under no circumstances should you reconnect both batteries to the wheel at the same time. One at a time is fine, but never both.

If you do, you run the risk of the battery that is charged to the higher voltage trying to charge the battery that's at a lower voltage. This can happen in an uncontrolled manner and lead to battery overheat, rapid disassembly with loud report, and fire!

You always want to verify and reverify that batteries are within about 0.1V of each other before connecting them in parallel (maybe a tenth or two more apart if and only if you're somewhere where a battery explosion and fire is acceptable).

Edited June 29, 2022 by Tawpie

[Funky]

Also if you charge one pack to 100% and then remove and try to charge second pack to 100% And if the second pack doesn't charge to 100%

Don't connect the different voltage packs back together. (There may be big sparks, worst case battery catches on fire because of different voltages. If i'm not mistaking..)

What @Tawpie said.  

Edited June 29, 2022 by Funky

[meepmeepmayer]

15 hours ago, Zutto said:

It's a Nikola+ 100V.  It only charges to 96.5V now (~85%).

That truly looks like a dead cell. 100.8V is the full voltage, and if you have a cell (4.2V) dead, you're at 96.6V.

Connect each pack alone and individually to see if it charges to the full voltage, then you know which one has the bad cell and which one is perfectly good. Then you can figure out what to do with the bad pack. (I would say: have a professional check/repair it, or just throw it away.)

[Tawpie]

One other thing... you didn't mention if your wheel was new or old.

If it's less than 6 months old, contact your reseller about a warranty replacement. Batteries are only warranted for 6 months, you may have to act quickly.

If it's very old and the battery system has a lot of hard use and the wheel has a lot of miles, you may be more bummed than you already are.

This is because batteries are best as a fully "matched set", where every single one of the individual cells are all performing exactly the same as each other. This matchy-matchy helps ensure that no single cell will be overly stressed by use and charging. Sadly, as you use the wheel, and more rapidly if you ride aggressively, the cells age. Which means that 'aged' cells will not match the characteristics of 'new' ones and this can/will accelerate degradation of the battery system. At some unknown point, you will want to replace BOTH packs to ensure they're a good match for each other. I don't know where that point is, but if you've got a large number of hard use miles on the wheel, I'd budget for replacing both packs at the same time.

[RagingGrandpa]

It makes me wonder... who would actually choose to pay $1600 to put new batteries in an old 1800wh EUC? 
(If it's a warranty replacement, excellent, do it! But here I'm discussing the consumer paying retail replacement-part pricing, to install a new battery set.)

The batteries are the most expensive part. If they fail, it's a total loss from a money standpoint, because a used Nik+ is typically only worth $1600. 
It sounds better to buy another used EUC, keep the bits you like the most (pads, pedals, plastics, etc), and resell the extra controller and motor. Especially because there is perpetual demand for controllers and rims.

[Funky]

40 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

One other thing... you didn't mention if your wheel was new or old.

If it's less than 6 months old, contact your reseller about a warranty replacement. Batteries are only warranted for 6 months, you may have to act quickly.

If it's very old and the battery system has a lot of hard use and the wheel has a lot of miles, you may be more bummed than you already are.

This is because batteries are best as a fully "matched set", where every single one of the individual cells are all performing exactly the same as each other. This matchy-matchy helps ensure that no single cell will be overly stressed by use and charging. Sadly, as you use the wheel, and more rapidly if you ride aggressively, the cells age. Which means that 'aged' cells will not match the characteristics of 'new' ones and this can/will accelerate degradation of the battery system. At some unknown point, you will want to replace BOTH packs to ensure they're a good match for each other. I don't know where that point is, but if you've got a large number of hard use miles on the wheel, I'd budget for replacing both packs at the same time.

Heck if i had to replace both packs - each pack cost 600euro for mine 18xl, that's easy 1200euro. I will add 650 more and buy new 18xl for 1850euro.  Will use old wheel as "parts" extra rim, extra motor (Will have two motors - will put 1 winter tire on one motor. 1 summer tire on second motor.. Simply change motor for winter/summer.) Extra all.  Much better deal than spending 1200euro just for batteries.

Heck first thing i would do is find some place where they work on batteries. Exchanging 1 cell i bet is much cheaper. Than buying whole battery pack. Ofc if battery pack isn't old like 4-5years.. 15k+ miles.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Funky

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

Yeah find someone to fix the battery packs.you can replace cells for cheap .do you know which cells you have here is a site for all types of cells https://www.batteryjunction.com

[RagingGrandpa]

8 minutes ago, Dosingpsychedelics said:

you can replace cells for cheap

No... 
You can buy cells for cheap...
But cutting out a bad cell group from a pack and welding-in replacement cells is very specialized work, and it's quite challenging to make the repair as durable as the original pack. Small mistakes can lead to injurious crashes or uncontrollable fires later. Don't cheap out on stuff like this.

[Funky]

4 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

No... 
You can buy cells for cheap...
But cutting out a bad cell group from a pack and welding-in replacement cells is very specialized work, and it's quite challenging to make the repair as durable as the original pack. Small mistakes can lead to injurious crashes or uncontrollable fires later. Don't cheap out on stuff like this.

It's so dumb.. Because of one 10$ cell - Whole battery pack is dead. There goes ~600-1000$

Why can't they make multiple smaller packs then? And jerry rig them together. That way if a cell dies you have to change maybe 100-200$ pack. < That would be better.

(Same regular pack, but made in multiple smaller packs) Can't that be done? Then again euc makers would lose income.... As people would need to spend less on replaceable battery packs.  

 

 

Why can't they make euc with "car" battery.  (Joke)

[RagingGrandpa]

11 minutes ago, Funky said:

It's so dumb.. Because of one 10$ cell - Whole battery pack is dead.

But that's like saying: because of one $10 bearing shell, the whole engine was destroyed... 
They design it to be powerful compact and affordable, and in >90% of EUC's, it works  

[Funky]

30 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

But that's like saying: because of one $10 bearing shell, the whole engine was destroyed... 
They design it to be powerful compact and affordable, and in >90% of EUC's, it works  

Affordable - all in luck. The new battery(1 cell) may die also in ~year time.  (I personally would not like to buy new battery sooner than 4-5 years. Whos kidding in that time i will buy new wheel.)

How bearing shell can destroy engine? (0 knowledge in cars) So that saying went past my like a blond chick on shopping spree.

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

3 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

No... 
You can buy cells for cheap...
But cutting out a bad cell group from a pack and welding-in replacement cells is very specialized work, and it's quite challenging to make the repair as durable as the original pack. Small mistakes can lead to injurious crashes or uncontrollable fires later. Don't cheap out on stuff like this.

By cheap I mean like 10-20$ for a replacement cell I don’t mean buying a low quality cell.I’ve found a site that even sell single molicel batteries cells  ..the expensive part is finding someone to rebuild your battery packs and paying for their labor .luckily if I ever have an battery issue my dad does that stuff .he even does microsoldering with the use of a radiomicroscope he is into building rc jets and helicopters i think he has an addiction 🤣🤣 this is about 1/3 of his rc toys 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Dosingpsychedelics

[alcatraz]

8 hours ago, Funky said:

It's so dumb.. Because of one 10$ cell - Whole battery pack is dead. There goes ~600-1000$

Why can't they make multiple smaller packs then? And jerry rig them together. That way if a cell dies you have to change maybe 100-200$ pack. < That would be better.

(Same regular pack, but made in multiple smaller packs) Can't that be done? Then again euc makers would lose income.... As people would need to spend less on replaceable battery packs.  

 

 

Why can't they make euc with "car" battery.  (Joke)

What we need are connections that aren't welded. Pity there isn't something durable out there that doesn't heat up/increase resistance.

[alcatraz]

The question remains, why are the cells out of balance? Sometimes the cells aren't to blame but the bms, and then replacing the cells won't solve the problem. That's annoying.

[alcatraz]

I fixed a V8 pack years ago and even though I made some compromises such as mixing cells with different capacities (same model, different batch), I was very careful to measure their self discharge by leaving them fully charged for 2-3 months before building. That STILL didn't produce a pack without 2 groups with accelerated discharge. And I know it's not the cells so that leaves me to believe it's the damn BMS that killed the pack in the first place and continues to kill the repaired pack. The wheel won't turn on without it so I can't fit aftermarket. Very annoying.

[tudordewolf]

It makes sense that a wheel with bad batteries is basically "totaled", they represent more than half its cost. Some Gotway wheels were offered without batteries as an option, so that you could use the set from an old wheel, when they were on the same 84V infrastructure for several generations.

Even if you could replace the single bad cell under lab-grade conditions with all the equipment you need and an identical cell from the original batch, you wouldn't get a battery pack worth being confident in like brand-new (minus the odds that a new pack develops a bad cell). The odds get worse as you mix cell types, ages, and resort to more improvised repair methods.

That may be fine for toys or hobby-grade electronics, but for a personal vehicle that can drop me on my face, I'm just not willing to risk it. 

Part of the problem is that cells in a pack experience emergent behavior that isn't apparent from a single cell's properties. Matching cells isn't just about optimizing your capacity, it's about what happens during high current draw and immediately after - if the cells differ, they'll experience uneven drain, and then haphazardly re-balance with each other after the current drain ends. If one cell is "the odd one out" in a pack, it's far more likely to die first from the cyclic loading that occurs during use.

All this is worsened by having series strings of cells in parallel - think about what happens if one cell in a string goes flat, to 0 volts, but the same voltage is applied across the entire string as before and divided amongst the remaining cells: all of them will be over-volted. If you're charging it through the charge port, the BMS may be able to detect and prevent this, like in the case of your 96.5V charging, but if paralleled to cells which can provide 100V, then it might destroy that entire "string" in series with the bad cell.

That's my theory, at least.

Edited June 30, 2022 by tudordewolf

[Funky]

We need "better" batteries in general.. (No fire hazards, etc..) I wonder how far has the "solid state" batteries gone.

[Paul A]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/06/solid-power-begins-pilot-production-of-solid-state-ev-battery.html

Mon, Jun 6 2022

Solid Power, backed by Ford and BMW, begins pilot production of innovative EV battery with longer range and quicker recharging

Key Points

• Solid Power said it has begun pilot manufacturing of solid-state EV batteries for internal testing.
• The company will begin supplying batteries to Ford and BMW for testing later this year.
• If all goes well, mass production could begin as soon as 2024.

 

Solid Power, a Colorado-based battery start-up backed by BMW and Ford Motor, said it has begun pilot production of an innovative solid-state battery cell that promises to offer electric-vehicle owners more range and shorter recharging times at lower cost.

 

Solid Power’s effort is one of several underway that aims to bring solid-state battery cells to market for use in electric vehicles.

Its rivals range from public companies such as QuantumScape to private efforts funded by giants such as Toyota.

 

Solid Power’s advantage might be unique: While at least some rivals’ designs will require costly specialized factories, Solid Power said its batteries can be produced using the tooling and processes already in place in current factories making lithium-ion battery cells.