Just bought a used S18, are these things normal / fixable?

[sunstrong]

Ha, as I wanted to post here, I saw the other recent post and realized how I got a bad deal...I guess lesson learned, now I gotta deal with what I've got.

I'm totally new to EUC, was very excited to start learning, and got this S18 from a guy in the local ride group. It was ridden by his gf for a year and has 1900km on it. I saw it on the spot and tried to test it (but wasn't able to), inspected the outside. Too excited so I took it on the spot. I don't want to wait to get a new wheel, plus I don't want to use a brand new wheel to learn, and even used ones come and go so fast, usually got sold in a day after posting.

Now that I've learned how to ride, I think it works fine, but there are a few things that bothers me a bit. Can you guys tell me if any of these are abnormal, if so is it easy to fix? 

1. The suspension sounds a bit noisy and doesn't feel as smooth as in some other video I saw. When I press it down, it doesn't rebound fully, I'd need to pull the shell to get it fully up. So as I inspect the suspension more closely,

1a. the blue rubber band never goes below 1/2 of of the full range, this should be because of my setting...what should I change?

1b. the linkage on the right side seems slightly shifted compared to the left, showing more space in between the linked arms:

1c. one of the slider seal is loose, I image a lot of dust could have gone into the tube causing friction? 

2. the tire seems misaligned, I don't know how much of a difference this makes. I don't know if the tire is rubbing the fender, but when I turn slowly I think the little hairs on the tire touches the fender. This pic is taken from the front side. I do notice a shim on the right, top side of the axle. The tire is tilted to the front, right side of the wheel (left in the picture) How would I position the shim (or anything else) to fix it?

3. the right shell is broken (I already knew this) and I kinda dropped this wheel in a very small puddle after rain once. There is a body guard that soaked most of the water up, but I could still reach into the shell and touch the side of the battery case which got lightly damp. Water from outside is gone after riding in the wind for five minutes.  Is it something I should be concerned about, and open up the battery packs to check if there's water sipping in? Or is it unlikely?

I did see some posts about S18 issues, didn't care too much about them until I noticed it myself...I thought later batches should have fixed those. This wheel is built December 2020 and comes with this later batch tire for example. 

My original plan was also to just learn on a used wheel like this, and when I get comfortable, switch to something better. I really like the V11 but now I see so many reports about latest V11 being problematic (cutouts, fire..) I don't know if I should invest more of my time / money on this S18.

[The Brahan Seer]

33 minutes ago, sunstrong said:

1a. the blue rubber band never goes below 1/2 of of the full range, this should be because of my setting...what should I change?

 

The blue band is used to measure the SAG of your suspension. You measure that by putting the blue band to the top of the chamber and standing on your wheel to see how far it goes down. You do not need to jump up and down on it just your 'resting weight' Ideally you want the sag to around 2 cms below. You adjust this by changing the pressures in your chambers. 

[The Brahan Seer]

37 minutes ago, sunstrong said:

1c. one of the slider seal is loose, I image a lot of dust could have gone into the tube causing friction? 

This is a common issue that can be easily fixed by using a very little superglue on it to keep it down. I  had no issues when I had it exposed so probably not a big deal.

[The Brahan Seer]

39 minutes ago, sunstrong said:

2. the tire seems misaligned

If its a new tyre the alignment of 2 shims either side may need to be checked. You should be able to turn the wheel without any rubbing/ or noise and it shouldn't look like its wobbling back and forth when you spin the wheel.

[The Brahan Seer]

43 minutes ago, sunstrong said:

Is it something I should be concerned about, and open up the battery packs to check if there's water sipping in? Or is it unlikely?

The battery cases are pretty robust and you shouldn't have an issue with water getting in. If it was a very small puddle and only surface water on the battery casing you should be ok. I rode my wheel all winter and its ok.

[Tawpie]

Take heart, that doesn't look terrible!

To see if your suspension is binding, deflate both chambers and set the rebound adjustment to "most rabbit" (I think it's counterclockwise). Then see if the suspension binds as you lift it. It doesn't have to be totally loose, but it shouldn't get stuck. If it does get stuck, then you get to deep dive into the relatively simple but detailed suspension rebuild process. For the most part, all it takes is time, patience, and possibly a point heat source (because loctite happens).

The stanchion 'seals' are strange—they should work to keep dust out but I doubt they do much other than keep rocks out. One advantage of having them loose is that you can use compressed air to blow out the dust, followed by silicone spray for lube… when they're glued down you're stuck with dressing the sliders with stanchion lube "slowly". I added a thingiverse 'holder' to the top that keeps them from sliding up.

Mostly and this is very important: set up your suspension "properly". Search for mountain bike rear shock setup videos, the principles are the same. The S18 has a compression chamber (top fill valve) that you use to set the sag and a rebound chamber (lower fill valve) that is responsible for overpowering stickshun in the shock seals. It also has a rebound speed dial on the top that you use to limit the pogo-stick effect. If your suspension is reasonably smooth throughout it's travel and you setup the shock properly, you'll be stoked. NOTE: the absolute pressure numbers are immaterial. If your top chamber is set for a couple cm of sag, then the lower chamber should be about half that number. Be sure to do your setup in full kit including backpack.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Tawpie

[The Brahan Seer]

51 minutes ago, sunstrong said:

I did see some posts about S18 issues,

You can use this link to find a great stripdown by @fbhb to help you understand your wheel more..

 

[Tawpie]

You're right to be cautious about water... fortunately the S18 is actually quite good with rain and puddles, better than most but not 'waterproof' by any means. Immersion is always bad, but you didn't quite do that. Nevertheless, based on what you described I agree with @The Brahan Seer, nothing to be concerned about. i would keep an eye on it for a couple of charge cycles, make sure it gets to 84V when you fully charge and leave it on charger for an hour or two after the charger LED turns green. But keeping an eye on the voltage after full charge is something you should do always anyway.

When my wheels get wet, I avoid laying them on their sides and always dry them in a stand. The water prevention designs for wheels generally assumes the wheel is upright, being on their side allows water to flow through the wheel in ways it wouldn't do when vertical.

Have fun with it, it's a great wheel!

[sunstrong]

Thanks a lot for the replies!

@Tawpie I finally tried your method to test the suspension smothness, omg when I lift the wheel I have to shake full force multiple times for the tire to drop to the ground.  That’s probably why I didn’t feel the suspension was doing much…and now I feel like maybe I should have said no to this wheel. Because somehow even though I know I didn’t get my money’s worth, at the same time I kinda feel motivated to get it fixed lol. I wonder what could have made the suspension so stuck tho?

 

12 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

You can use this link to find a great stripdown

Thanks, I’ve read this post, along with some others, but I’ve never done this kind of mechanical work before, so even now I still don’t fully get how to properly put the shims for the axle, or what kind of washers instead of the split end ones to put in the suspension linkage…

[Tawpie]

oof. bummer. Before you start tearing it apart, try this (outdoors, on a piece of cardboard... it makes a mess and silicone is... silicone). You might be lucky, and luck always trumps skill: 

Credit to @enaon for the technique!

Edited May 27, 2022 by Tawpie

[The Brahan Seer]

This link is to the Kingsong International youtube channel. It is great as it has vlogs that show the step by step process to disassemble your wheel or change the tyre etc etc..

Inner tube replacement.. You can use this vlog to help you take the wheel off and check the wheel is aligned properly...

13 hours ago, sunstrong said:

I wonder what could have made the suspension so stuck tho?

Unfortunately many came out of the factory with suspension issues/poor Alignment so it may have been like this from new. I was very lucky mine is ok so I haven't had to touch the suspension yet. My experience is limited too. I have changed all the screws/hexnuts to stainless steel and changed the tyre twice. Only because I nicked the inner tube on the first attempt and only found out after putting it all back together. 

 

[enaon]

this is a example of a very good working slider system, as a reference of what to expect if tensions are fully released. 
 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by enaon

[sunstrong]

I got some silicone spray and applied to the slider and the exposed bearing (as seen in one of the pictures), it definitely got better, say before I would need to shake 10 times for the tire to fully drop, now I can do it in three. I can also get the wheel down by pushing the air suspension with my fingers now, which I couldn’t before. But it’s nowhere as smooth as in the videos. 
Right now my guess is that it could be the extruding bearing on the right of the linkage, which I saw in this blog post that it could happen after use, and I’d need to swap out the whole linking frame? 
https://ecodrift.us/kingsong-s18-we-disassemble-the-wheel-after-1000km-mileage-we-disassemble-the-wheel-after-1000km-mileage/

Or, this wheel has had this issue since the start due to misalignment. It looks like I’ll need to open it up

p.s comparing to the blog post, other than the suspensions problem, mine looks so much cleaner with longer mileage…I’m thankful that the previous owner only rode in dry weather and never did off-roading 😂

 

[sunstrong]

Another look at the crooked frame / protruded bearing (after cleaning). I wonder if anyone else has seen this before?

 

Also, after a lot of cleaning and reapplying silicone spray to the slider and the suspension, it feels much smoother but the suspension still only rebounds to about 90% of the travel.

[Tawpie]

That does look like a bearing that isn’t where it belongs. Time to get out the tools.

There was one rebuild thread where a bearing pocket is deep enough to accept 1.5 bearings (a little bit of one sticks out), but I don’t know if that’s the joint. Either way, I would want it to be the same on both sides!

[LightWave]

Could he lock the suspension so it works like a non-suspension wheel and at least have something to learn on for now?

[sunstrong]

@ElectronxCycles it is working don’t worry, just not so smoothly…although 

9 minutes ago, ElectronxCycles said:

lock the suspension so it works like a non-suspension wheel

 That’s an interesting idea, since this is my first wheel I do wonder what a nonsuspension wheel (or a super smooth suspension, for that matter) feels like:)

now what’s more so inhibiting my learning is the lack of gear (I only have a skate helmet and wrist guards) and the bruise on my ankle from my first day of learning that still has not healed  

[sunstrong]

Just an update for anyone interested (if any…)

Today I planned to take it apart and try to see if I could see the source of the problem for the stuck suspension. I just deflated the suspension, then I noticed that the suspension has become super smooth! At a second glance, the protruding bearing has magically popped back into its place too!

[Tawpie]

5 minutes ago, sunstrong said:

At a second glance, the protruding bearing has magically popped back into its place too!

Check that all the screws in the connecting rods are tight, it sounds like one or more might be backed out a little. It shouldn't shift side-to-side enough to allow a bearing to ease out of its pocket.

But, big victory!

[MetricUSA]

Holy fuck, the guy buys a suspension wheel as first wheel then says he wants to move to a better wheel after his beginner wheel!!! Jesus Christ, how spoiled some are...

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, MetricUSA said:

how spoiled some are.

Please follow the forum rules and "Be good to one another. Don’t insult anyone directly"

If one finds nothing positive to respond to this topic, one can just remain silent..

Sounds like beeing envy about someone owning this wheel and not beeing super happy with known assembly/design issues of this wheel.

[sunstrong]

On 6/6/2022 at 11:40 AM, Tawpie said:

all the screws in the connecting rods are tight, it sounds like one or more might be backed out a little

Thanks for the suggestion! The one connecting the two arms are still very tight, in fact I already stripped one a little bit before realizing that’s what the point heat source you talked about is for…the ones connecting to the sliders could be tightened it seems, but I don’t want to take the tire out (removing the silicone on the motor connector and everything…) so I didn’t inspect thoroughly.

So I stripped down the wheel to just the suspension, tire and motherboard, found some new problems

The crash this wheel had actually broke the right front side of the motherboard holder. I glued it back with E6000 and still waiting to see if it will cure strong enough to hold the original structure…and this is the point where I realized I should have not bought this wheel 

Otherwise, with most things (shell, battery, suspension) removed the suspension is still binding. I don’t have a soldering iron to open up the suspension arms so I just gave up. Maybe I’ll try removing the washer in connections between two suspension arms, but is that still a problem in later batches? I still don’t know what it could be, the upper rod connecting the arms to the suspension are super tight, likely because the suspension is slightly wider than the gap between the two arms.

So I’m trying to put things back together, but noticed that another thing cause friction is the left side battery case rubbing against the slider / motor holder, which was also happening before. But I don’t understand, the top of the battery is fixed onto the same structure as the slider, so there’s no way to widen the upper gap of these two things that is needed to avoid friction. What can I do? I haven’t found any post talking about this…

[Tawpie]

oof. That's not good news. I'll have to defer to the suspension teardown gurus on this one, something got misaligned in the crash. Take heart, these things are usually fixable, but it'll require work and $.

[fbhb]

3 hours ago, sunstrong said:

So I’m trying to put things back together, but noticed that another thing cause friction is the left side battery case rubbing against the slider / motor holder, which was also happening before. But I don’t understand, the top of the battery is fixed onto the same structure as the slider, so there’s no way to widen the upper gap of these two things that is needed to avoid friction. What can I do? I haven’t found any post talking about this…

 

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

oof. That's not good news. I'll have to defer to the suspension teardown gurus on this one, something got misaligned in the crash. Take heart, these things are usually fixable, but it'll require work and $.

Below is an excerpt from my major S18 Suspension Overhaul topic posted here in 2020, which should offer you some help in achieving the necessary clearance between slider and battery casing: 

 

 

"When installing the front battery packs, care needs to be taken to make sure there is adequate clearance between the pack and the slider. I used a small wooden wedge to help maintain clearance whilst tightening the 4 bolts in the control board housing."

Edited June 8, 2022 by fbhb

[sunstrong]

Can’t believe I did it! Spent 3 days off to work on this, I think I fixed most if not all the problems, just don’t know how long it will last. But still I think I spent less effort than I thought I would, and with not much tools available (just screw driver, mallet, a set of allen keys)

So I finally bit the bullet and took off the last major piece that is the motor / tire (bought silicone caulk for this), and inspected the skeleton of the thing.

On 6/7/2022 at 10:21 PM, Tawpie said:

something got misaligned in the crash.

I think that’s very likely, or more so, because the crash broke the front top side of the motherboard / slider holder, the battery has been hanging loose, supported only by the pedal holder for a long time, that might have pushed front side of the pedal holder down, in turn tilting the right side silders backwards, and the motor…which is I guess why my tire is misaligned horizontally (tilting right at the front) and not (very) vertically like what most people have reported. I tested the theory by checking the slider alignment, when I put the rest of the structure on the floor standing on the sliders, it rocks a bit, but it could have also been just a length difference.

I also checked suspension without the motor and the disconnecting the suspension. Seems super smooth, confirming that the binding happens likely along with the misaligned motor / slider.

Then I thought I would need to try more carefully install the motor to correct the misalignment. Unlike @fbhb‘s post, the axle mount surface on both sides are pretty level already, yet they put in one shim on the right, two shim on the left, which is probably why the tire was not only tilting right on the front but also tilting right on the top. (previously I thought I got it right by removing one shim on the right, it became better vertically but was still tilting horizontally)

So I removed all the shims, set the wheel upside down, checked the alignment when the motor is set in place but loose, actually looks pretty straight. So as one post suggested (couldn’t find the reference anymore), I tightened the axle clamp bolts to about 50%, then slowly tighten some of the bolts before others. Eventually  I think what fixed the alignment is by tightening the bolts marked X in the pic below, almost simultaneously. Then slightly tighten the rest afterwards. This shows that the misalignment created by the crash was probably just in the clamps the whole time

On 6/8/2022 at 12:01 AM, fbhb said:

"When installing the front battery packs, care needs to be taken to make sure there is adequate clearance between the pack and the slider. I used a small wooden wedge to help maintain clearance whilst tightening the 4 bolts in the control board housing."

Thanks for your input! I initially thought this wouldn’t change things, but it did, now there is a tiny tiny clearance before the battery and the slider makes contact, but I forgot to check it after all the batteries are assembled…realigning the motor axle might have also helped?

Front side after the fix (might still looks a bit misaligned in the photo, but at least much better than before! I’m satisfied), also the glued in part on the right below the cables, above the battery, seems to be holding fine for now, not sure if it will hold with the pressure from riding yet

Back after all is done:

I also added velcro for the pads for future disassembly / switching out to power pads: