Inmotion V13 Speculation

[2disbetter]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

That was very entertaining to watch and quite a close race. I agree the EX probably would've have edged in front had he had his full batteries and knew the course as well as the first guy.

That being said, the V13 handles battery loss VERY WELL as far as top speeds go. So I bet the results would have been the same had the V13 has a lower battery as well. 

[novazeus]

please don't take this as me hating on the v13, because i do love the challenge of the most difficult wheel i've ever owned to balance at slow speed, 1-2mph.

and it is by far the best wheel for me to ride in gusty winds and at 25 mph plus. 

but i just rode my s18 and s22 after flipping the s22 upside down and flooding the channels with lubricant, and the coil spring retainer ring as barely touching the spring. all wheels at 5psi below the sidewall max pressure, and the s22 is waaaay softer suspension wise compared to the v13. 

i'm gonna bribe johnny go vroom to come down and visit me because this suspension on the v13 isn't right. i'm not gonna fight the wind today and take a break. 

the v13 is inside with me so i'm gonna play with the shocks air pressure, maybe starting at 80psi and set the damper completely off. i can't figure it out. if it's bottoming out or just sucks and it just is harsh. i have this one spot with two grooves in my road about a foot apart running perpendicular to the pavement and the wheel always rattles going over them and it's felt very clearly to my feet. like nothing on the s22 with stock sliders. 

my thinking is that if i lower the pressure, it just sags more and i have less shock travel. easier to bottom out. more air pressure like 250, higher pedals and less sag, but that would seem to be a stiffer suspension. i wish inmotion would do an instructional video of what they think is normal.

since i've been ignoring the king songs for weeks now, and only riding the v13, the differences were much more apparent. 

[novazeus]

here's how to get the maximum charge on the v13. as soon as the light turns green, first make sure it isn't connected to the app, then unplug the charger from the wall, then unplug the charger from the wheel.

i figured this out based on my s18 experience by not realizing the bluetooth stays on if u don't unplug the wall plug first.

but on the v13, once the charger turns green, it's done. no more juice goes to the wheel even if u left it plugged in for weeks, but the bluetooth stays on while the charger is plugged in. i left the charger plugged in all night, and i was at only 98% battery. that's because the bluetooth is using juice, but the bms isn't allowing the wheel to take anymore juice. u can see the little bluetooth symbol on the wheel's lcd screen being on while the charger is plugged in. and definitely make sure the bluetooth is off first before turning off the wheel.

[novazeus]

been playing with the suspension psi and i think i figured out the shock tube tensioner thing. one side was loose the other fairly snug.

but i pumped it up to past 250psi so when i unscrew the nozzle and a little air leaks out, it settles around 250psi. i'm 177 pounds now, and there is no way @YourAubsomecan be bottoming out at 250psi. it barely sags a half inch with me on it.

i'm gonna do a few laps at 250 psi and see what my road feels like now, and maybe turn the damper full counterclockwise. then start letting air out incrementally. 

[mrelwood]

 

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

flipping the s22 upside down and flooding the channels with lubricant

Shouldn’t you lube the V13 sliders as well for a fair comparison? It’s no surprise that lubed elements slide better than non-lubed.

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

but i pumped it up to past 250psi so when i unscrew the nozzle and a little air leaks out, it settles around 250psi.

Again, if you’re using the 2-step pump nozzle correctly (or if the pump has a 1-step nozzle), no air comes out of the shock when detaching the pump. The hiss comes when the pressure in the pump and hose is relieved.

Do a YouTube search on “Shock lose pressure detaching pump” if you want to hear it from someone else than me.

Edited April 11, 2023 by mrelwood

[novazeus]

well, i tried it on my road, but omg, u are definitely higher up and it's still gusting outside so i only did two laps. 

funny, but the actual dips in the road did feel better but i'll wait til tmrw before any conclusive determination. it's really high up. a different wheel, 

i think what adds to the illusion of bottoming out, is that the v13 is just plasticky and creaky over bumps. and one of the shock tube adjuster things was loose and one was snug. so i tightened both until they were both snug. i do think that got rid of the clunk starting out. 

[novazeus]

no, i have the same setup on my harley. and i know a tiny bit leaks out, so if u want 250, u have to go a little higher. i had set it at 175 before a week or so ago, and the gauge read 150 when i connected. at 250 psi, to lose 10psi isn't very much air at all. like when i let some out tmrw, i guarantee u when i first hook up, it will read 250. the pump that comes with the s18 is much better than the v13 pump anyway. pretty sure my harley pump that was $30 plus got lost in the fire. they all leak a tiny bit. trust me, it's 250psi, and there's no way @YourAubsomeis bottoming out. i'm 177 and i can't even hardly compress it, jumping on it. 250 for 177 is too much for sure. tmrw i'll start dropping it a little at a time. just checking the pressure will drop it a few pounds. easier to go down than to go up. like i say, the plastic body rattling adds to the bottoming out effect but it still isn't as soft as the stock sliders on the s22. i think the tubes on the v13 don't need lube, but tmrw when i bring it back down, i'm gonna bring it back inside, set up a phone and jump up and down on it so maybe somebody can tell me what is making the racket inside. i have nothing to compare it to. 

[novazeus]

it's not really a fair comparison to the suspension on the s22 either. because the stock knobby on the s22 is softer than a tubeless hard motorcycle tire with out knobs. those knobs  act as little shock absorbers as well.  like if i change out the tire on the s22, which i might, to the michelin pilot street 2, that will make the s22 ride harder as well. 

i'll start at whatever the gauge says tmrw, and take pictures for proof. and the ride a few miles. hook up the pump again, take more pictures of the gauge, and ride a few miles, etc. probably only drops 5psi at high pressure. when ur in more normal range like 150psi, it won't leak as much connecting the pump, and coincidentally i watched @SquallLHeartvideo explaining how to use inmotions pump last night. i just like the king pump better. same principal sorta, just the king song one pumps better. but yeah, very familiar with those pumps and airshocks because i got my flhrse4 in 2008. 

[novazeus]

maybe the two step nozzle works a little better but ultimately, the goal is to get somewhere close to ur chosen or desired psi. the gauges seem to be pretty close. the inmotion pump is just a cheaper looking harder to pump, less volume than the king song one. 250 or 245, isn't gonna make a difference in ride. i'll probably do 250, 225, 200, 175, 150, 125, 100, etc tmrw to see if it makes any difference. couldn't really evaluate today in 25 mph gusts. and honestly, even if that did smooth out the road imperfections, being jacked up that high is probably dangerous. i don't know how @YourAubsomecompressed the shocks at all because i'm 177 and i was jumping on it and it barely moved. at 150 where i started, i had quite a bit of travel and very smooth. i was making sure i wasn't over tightening  the tube adjusters things. and i don't even know how to lube them, unless u take off the bottom cap and spray lube up in there. they have a seal up top and very clean. never been off pavement. no stiction whatsoever, just harsh over bumps and depressions. lowering the tire pressure 5 more psi down to 35 psi is probably the only way, but this experiment is about the suspension with no help from the tire. i'm pretty sure no 177 pound rider is riding the michelin at 40psi. it's kinda knife edge and very difficult to ride, especially at slow, 1-2 mph speeds, like when i'm coasting to my rail. if u misjudge, ur probably gonna have to dismount. it's happen more than once on 2200 attempts. good practice though, which is my goal. just like high winds but yesterday 52 miles in the winds exhausted me. is the best wheel for wind gusts though, at speed, stopping when the wind is at ur back is sure tricky. or in ur face.

suppose to rain tmrw but they have been saying that everyday and no rain. it does say higher wind gusts tmrw to 25mph. it was kinda funny today because where i start from there's lots of trees blocking the wind, but as soon as i make my big curve it's all out in the open. so i'm thinking, gee, it's pretty calm, let me ride the s18 and see if the tire is better now, and i round my corner and get hit with the wind, and at the end of my road it was realing howling. don't really need a wind sock with all these trees and moss hanging horizontal. it was that way all day yesterday. tight fitting clothes is a must. my kuji looking helmet sucks it the wind with it's bill protruding. almost takes ur head off. that bill actually doesn't do squat i don't think except catch the wind.

Edited April 12, 2023 by novazeus

[Punxatawneyjoe]

Chooch

Always entertaining.

He doesn't seem to have a torque or suspension problem.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Punxatawneyjoe
afterthought

[novazeus]

yeah, i just pray chooch never hits a tree but snowboarding out there is too dangerous for me.

inmotion pump left, i can hardly read the dial, not really that accurate of a device, either one, just gets u in the ballpark. king song on the right. much bigger air volume per stroke. bigger gauge dial,

yeah the inmotion pump looks like it came from a gumball machine.

Edited April 12, 2023 by novazeus

[novazeus]

woop woop, free kickstand otw. thank u, jacob at neltrek. already got the free seat. that's the way to treat ur customers. plus a perfect job of mounting the michelin. best tire i've ever had. also the most difficult to ride slow. that's why it's called the "challenger".:

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

He doesn't seem to have a torque or suspension problem.

sounds like he dose to me, he keeps saying u have to keep ur momentum or inertia up. yeah duh! that's what low end torgue does for ur. he doesn't understand what torque is. if it had torque, he wouldn't have to keep the momentum. if u run at a hill at 15mph, instead of starting at 5 mph, that's where the lack of torque shows up. 

the wheel has suspension. i'll shoot a video tmrw night. probably more travel than my s22. idk why the ride is so harsh. tmrw i'm going thru all the settings. and he's riding the stock knobby probably at 20psi which is fine for his 135 pound soaking wet weight. knobby, low psi, low rider weight, all factors. and riding a groomed trail isn't exactly where u evaluate suspensions.  or range for that matter. 

my feet never leave the pedals and that's the main thing. but my ankles, knees and feet are taking a beating at 40psi. ur running at 30psi aren't u? that's a big difference. but again, hard to judge the suspension, softening the tire. 

i'm sure once my evaluation is finished, i'll be running the michelin at 35psi. but i only have 725 miles on it so far. probably need another 500 or so for practice.

please, please, listen to my video tmrw night and see if u can determine what is making that racket inside when i bounce on it. as smooth as the suspension works, it's baffling why the ride is so harsh. maybe it needs more damper. i'm the first to admit, i can't figure it out. other than the knobby on the s22 softens the ride that much. because the stock sliders still suck, compared to the pro version. s22 is the easiest of my wheels to ride on less than 25mph winds. v13 wins in high winds. not very fun at 250psi though.

i wanna test my battery theory tmrw night as well keeping an eye on when the charger kicks off. there is no trickle charge. on the s18 there is. about 2 hours worth.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by novazeus

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, novazeus said:

no, i have the same setup on my harley. and i know a tiny bit leaks out, so if u want 250, u have to go a little higher. i had set it at 175 before a week or so ago, and the gauge read 150 when i connected.

Sir, it’s time for you to learn new things again. Yes the pressure is lower, because you lose a little pressure when connecting the pump. Not when detaching. When connecting, the same amount of air volume now fills the pump hose and internals as well, which decreases the pressure.

 Since I don’t think you’ll bother to investigate this further, let me do that for you. You’re welcome:

 

 

Etc etc.

 

5 hours ago, novazeus said:

i think the tubes on the v13 don't need lube

No they don’t. But you aren’t lubing the shock or spring on your S22 either. You are lubing the rails. So you’d need to lube the rails on the V13 as well. That’s where most of the friction is.

 

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

no stiction whatsoever, just harsh over bumps and depressions.

You might have some rattle on the rails’ slider guides after all. Do this shake test (time stamped):

https://youtu.be/QWBYVauvFMM&t=33m23s

 Does it rattle/knock/click at all? You might want to do the shake test with more force and speed than how Marty does it, to make sure the sliders are snug enough (but not tight).

 

3 hours ago, novazeus said:

he doesn't understand what torque is. if it had torque, he wouldn't have to keep the momentum.

There are two things here. First, the amount of maximum torque that the wheel can provide. Second, the effort it takes to access that torque.

 The V13 has one of the highest maximum torques available. But it also requires one of the highest amounts of effort to access due to the large tire diameter and heavy weight. To accelerate you have to put your weight so much forward that it’s better and easier to have the momentum in the first place so you don’t need to accelerate as much during an iffy section of the track.

 Here’s a great example of how much effort it takes to ride uphill on a large diameter tire:

 

3 hours ago, novazeus said:

if u run at a hill at 15mph, instead of starting at 5 mph, that's where the lack of torque shows up.

If the rider reaches the maximum amount of torque available, the wheel will tilt forward. Remember, all the power and torque of the wheel is being used only for staying upright. Not for accelerating uphill, or helping you trolley the wheel up a sandy incline. If the wheel stays upright, there are no issues with the maximum torque. But it requires a lot of effort from you because the wheel is so heavy and has a very large tire diameter.

 

3 hours ago, novazeus said:

please, please, listen to my video tmrw night and see if u can determine what is making that racket inside when i bounce on it.

This description also sounds like you might need to tighten the sliders.

[novazeus]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Sir, it’s time for you to learn new things again. Yes the pressure is lower, because you lose a little pressure when connecting the pump. Not when detaching. When connecting, the same amount of air volume now fills the pump hose and internals as well, which decreases the pressure.

 Since I don’t think you’ll bother to investigate this further, let me do that for you. You’re welcome:

oh, so according to ur little gospel youtube videos, if they are correct, instead of 255psi,if that, allowing for air escaping, thinking it settles at 250, i actually have 255psi instead of 250psi. wow that is so helpful. like this tinker toy tiny gauge was accurate.uh, and according to that woman, how do u check sag on the v13?

btw, the inmotion pump is totally different from the king song pump. check it out. the inmotion pump, pumps air both ways, when u pull out the handle and push it in. the king pump is a oneway pump. the fittings are different too. the little hose doesn't hold a gnat's breath of air. blow on the fitting of ur king song pump and u will understand.

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

There are two things here. First, the amount of maximum torque that the wheel can provide. Second, the effort it takes to access that torque.

 The V13 has one of the highest maximum torques available. But it also requires one of the highest amounts of effort to access due to the large tire diameter and heavy weight. To accelerate you have to put your weight so much forward that it’s better and easier to have the momentum in the first place so you don’t need to accelerate as much during an iffy section of the track.

i believe this guy mrelwood said wrongway was over torqueing the wheel with ankle flicks. 

is mr wrongway wrong as well. he says the wheel has low torque. if the torque is so great, why does everybody say it's slow off the line. u need to ride one. and why is inmotion adding torque down low supposedly with their fancy mode?

when u ride one u will understand. once the motor spools up, it pulls very strong.but if u hammer from a standstill, unless ur demonstrating like wrongway, u might faceplant. 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

If the rider reaches the maximum amount of torque available, the wheel will tilt forward. Remember, all the power and torque of the wheel is being used only for staying upright. Not for accelerating uphill, or helping you trolley the wheel up a sandy incline. If the wheel stays upright, there are no issues with the maximum torque. But it requires a lot of effort from you because the wheel is so heavy and has a very large tire diameter.

i believe the motor engages and moves the wheel forward with the trolley handle if mounted correctly, because the trolley handle exerts forward tilt or rearward tilt on the wheel, and the motor engages to correct the tilt. that's how the trolley handles work on any wheel. light or heavy.

 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

You might have some rattle on the rails’ slider guides after all. Do this shake test (time stamped):

https://youtu.be/QWBYVauvFMM&t=33m23s

 Does it rattle/knock/click at all? You might want to do the shake test with more force and speed than how Marty does it, to make sure the sliders are snug enough (but not tight).

nope, nothing like marty's video at all.

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

This description also sounds like you might need to tighten the sliders.

as i previously stated, i did tightened the sliders, and as i said, one was not snug, but the other side was, and that had nothing to do with the rattle from inside jumping up and down

please watch this video as well. what is the rattle in the wheel?

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

No they don’t. But you aren’t lubing the shock or spring on your S22 either. You are lubing the rails. So you’d need to lube the rails on the V13 as well. That’s where most of the friction is.

nope, no friction on the rails, again like i said, very smooth, no stiction whatsoever. but how are they lubricated if someday i think they need lubrication? very different set up i believe between the s22 stock sliders and whatever inmotion did.

tybtw, since i'm presuming u don't have a pump, here's a closeup of the little dial on the inmotion tinker toy pump. which isn't very accurate anyway. about as large as my thumbnail. i'm not talking about pumping it up to 300psi, just a hair past 250. if the pump was accurate, which i doubt, those little tick marks represent 10 psi.

i seriously doubt if i'm adding 5 psi more, that anybody would or could measure the difference in sag, if their is a way to measure sag on the v13. 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The V13 has one of the highest maximum torques available. But it also requires one of the highest amounts of effort to access due to the large tire diameter and heavy weight. To accelerate you have to put your weight so much forward that it’s better and easier to have the momentum in the first place so you don’t need to accelerate as much during an iffy section of the track.

e=mv2 i believe somebody said once. so yeah, the wheel fell forward on me just trying to roll up over a 1.5" paved shoulder from a standstill.  that wouldn't have happened had i approached the same shoulder with forward momentum. explain why wrongway wheel tilted forward in his video at the 8.50 mark. he demonstrated the exact same thing my wheel did. and he wasn't trying to roll up a shoulder, he was on flat pavement from almost a standstill. 

just watch my video tonight, listen to videos like @YourAubsomecoming down the stairs and others. 

ultimately, the issue is at hand, why do i and many others think the suspension is harsh on the v13? what psi do u run or should i run at 177 pounds rider weight to have a more cushy non ankle, knee, foot pain? i'm not imagining what my feet feel. 

and why did my wheel tilt forward and almost faceplant me from a standstill?

doesn't do that starting on pavement from a standstill.

i know i won't be able to hold my phone and fight the wind today but maybe i can duct tape a phone to my wheel while i ride my road and u can hear the bottoming out sounding effects going over depressions. 

if u have any helpful suggestions on how to make the suspension better, i'm sure many v13 owners, as well as myself will be grateful. then u can start on the s22 suspension. and hopefully not dismantle the wheel every 500 miles, in my case, every ten days. that would suck.

fyi reading for u.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by novazeus

[novazeus]

fyi

https://enduro-mtb.com/en/the-best-shock-pump-you-can-buy/

at 80psi, according to these guys testing, most of the pumps gave higher readings on the gauge than actual air pressure. 

it's all relative anyway, and not a big deal. so 250psi reading on a pump, might actually be 240 anyway.pressure loss or not. never a higher reading. so if ur a stickler, maybe going higher is a good idea anyway. doesn't solve anything. i don't think air gauges are accurate anyway, and this chart proves it. especially in the reading isn't somwhere near the middle. 

 

good to know that u can slowly unscrew the knob and not lose air pressure. i've always tried to unsrew it quickly. 

but the gauges aren't that accurate as well. 

it's starting to rain now, but if i can ride, i can just screw on the king song pump and that will let out air but whatever the gauge reads sb the pressure and it sb lower each time. 

i doubt there's a need to wait ten minutes after setting the wheel on its nose either. that shouldn't make that big of a difference for just finding a pressure that doesn't rattle the wheel and my feet going over imperfections. 

i wonder how low i could go in air pressure. but that limits the suspension travel as well. 

just puzzling if the suspension works so great, why is the seat of the pants ride for myself and others apparently harsh. 

i worried that it was so harsh it would damage the internals of the wheel. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by novazeus

[Punxatawneyjoe]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

i actually have 255psi instead of 250psi.

It only take a second to let ALL the air out of the shocks, they don't hold much.

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

explain why wrongway wheel tilted forward in his video

The v13 will allow a slight tilt before it fully engages, it's foolish but that's what it does. probably a way to prevent over amping the control.If you look at my video, it does the same thing before the tire starts burning up on the rocks embedded in the bank. At no point does wrong way "over torque" the wheel. Just ankle flicks it for a second.

https://streamable.com/7nlnes

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

why do i and many others think the suspension is harsh on the v13?

Many others? Anyone who has said it, doesn't know how to adjust it. You have been all over the map yourself with the pressure and dampening adjustment even though others of the same weight have recommended a pressure and dampening setting.  You just said you pumped it up to 250 and tightened the dampening screw so it wasn't "loose". Why would you do that? 250 is way to high and the screw stays "loose" when adjusting it. If you tighten it all the way it's at maximum dampening which would be stiff as f#$%. The suspension will never travel super smooth hitting a ditch because of the way it travels. Instead of traveling up AND back like most suspensions do, it only travels UP. so it will always have a bit of a bump before it compresses in order to transfer the backward impact to a upward movement.

If you look at chooches last video @ 0.08 the wheel tilts forward but he stays on it and then it starts spinning the tire, doesn't look like lack of torque to me. It if was he would have face planted. Pretty good to spin the tire with a combined weight of about 280lbs and a knobby.  The v13 doesn't take off like a rocket because it weighs 116lbs but it gets up and goes with power pads if you lean right into it. I know you don't use them or believe in them but it's simple leverage and mechanical advantage. No body on the planet can torque the wheel better than someone with properly placed power pads by standing on the pedals alone. It would be like trying to remove a cars lug nuts with a 3/8" ratchet.

[mrelwood]

@novazeus, you might not realize, but you are asking for a lot of other people’s time and patience when you go into your “I can’t be wrong” mode. Most of what you asked have already been explained to you. For people that think teaching in schools is an unrewarding job, try doing it on a free web discussion forum… 

I’m happy to share my knowledge and explain stuff to people, but why would I do that for you if you either don’t read the reply or only give back some  childish bantering? I’m not asking even for a “thank you”, just that you take it in not as an attack towards your ego but as an answer to your questions, and something new you can learn. If that isn’t why you’re asking in the first place, please let us know so we can better decide how to reply.

 

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

oh, so according to ur little gospel youtube videos, if they are correct, instead of 255psi,if that, allowing for air escaping, thinking it settles at 250

I don’t know wtf is wrong with you and your attitude here. But 255psi tends to get down to about 240psi, when you attach the pump. People who don’t understand this, pump the shock to 270 and think that it goes down to 255 when you detach the pump. And that starts to be a noticeable difference to the reality.

 The pump hose and internals don’t take much air, but neither does the air shock itself. And it’s this ratio of air volumes that matters. The hose+pump air volume is maybe 6% of the shock’s air volume. Go ahead and calculate how much 255psi drops if you increase the air volume by 6%. There are free online “Boyle’s law” calculators that make it real easy and effortless.

 If you’d only find out your pressures by testing them out yourself with always the same pump, it really doesn’t matter whether you understand this or not. But if you want to try any recommended pressures, or not seem ignorant when discussing with other people, you best take this in.

 Yes, the gauges are imprecise, but if you always use the same pump, you still get the same pressure every time. You might have to adjust the pressure when switching to another pump  though.

 This subject for example normally takes one short line of text to explain to other people, and they answer “cool, didn’t know that, thx.” But with you we’re already at I don’t know how many long paragraphs and two external links that also explain how it really is. Why is so hard for you to admit to yourself that you didn’t know something?

 

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

i believe this guy mrelwood said wrongway was over torqueing the wheel with ankle flicks.

The EUC terminology isn’t standardized, so I’m sure I call some stuff something else than some other people do. But since it’s not useful for an EUC to tilt 20 degrees forward before the motor catches up, I don’t think it’s planned behavior. Being so, the wheel received more input torque than it could handle keeping upright. I call that being overtorqued.

I would assume that the V13 appears to have a low torque because of how the firmware is programmed. Meaning, it should be technically able to push out a lot more, but it has limits for the motor or battery current that are easily reached, especially at slower speeds.

 In addition, it has a very strict limit at standstill, which seem to have been the cause for your blood pumping moment when your V13 dipped forward at the road bank.

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

if the torque is so great, why does everybody say it's slow off the line.

They are two separate things. This too I already explained to you. It’s slow because the same exact lean on the V13 is over 10% slower to accelerate than on any so called 20” wheel. This is because of the tire diameter being abnormally large on the V13. Large wheels require more effort to accelerate.

 For the same amount of acceleration, you either need to lean 10% further or weigh more than 10% more than you would with a 53kg 20” wheel. If the 20” wheel is lighter, the difference is even larger.

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

why is inmotion adding torque down low supposedly with their fancy mode?

I haven’t heard that they were.

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

i believe the motor engages and moves the wheel forward with the trolley handle if mounted correctly, because the trolley handle exerts forward tilt or rearward tilt on the wheel, and the motor engages to correct the tilt. that's how the trolley handles work on any wheel. light or heavy.

Yes. And that’s what happened with your wheel as well when you were trolleying it up an incline. The motor put out the exact amount of torque that was required to keep itself upright. It didn’t “help” you push it up the incline, since that would’ve meant giving up on it’s main job as a self-balancing vehicle.

 

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

as i previously stated, i did tightened the sliders

I hope you didn’t tighten too much. They need to be just right.

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

please watch this video as well. what is the rattle in the wheel?

I don’t know, I’d have to examine one to find out. But it does sound similar to what the V11 sounds when it reaches the upper end of the suspension travel.

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

nope, no friction on the rails

There’s always friction on the rails. It’s the most frictiony part of the V11 suspension for example. And the V13 suspension is mechanically pretty similar.

 Though the friction is very different when you’re standing at the center of the wheel at standstill compared to going over a bump while accelerating. When you’re leaning forward, even just enough to keep a steady speed, any bump in the road will create a twisting motion that multiplies the rail friction.

 One test I’ve accustomed to making to check my V11 suspension setup, is to first hold myself up against a wall and bounce up and down on the wheel. Then, I try to push forward through the wall with my both hands to emulate accelerating, and then hop up and down. The V11 at it’s default form becomes quite stiff. That’s when I started to look for the solution that has eventually materialized as waxing the sliders.

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

but how are they lubricated if someday i think they need lubrication?

A good start is to rub an ample amount of paraffine wax (or a small unscented candle) on the visible part of the slider’s wearing edges.

 

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

if their is a way to measure sag on the v13.

This should work: Take one of those fabric coated rubber bands that girls and jazz musicians wrap their pony tails with, and wrap it around the visible slider, as high as it gets. Measure the distance “A” from the pony tail to the bottom of the slider rail. Now stand up on the wheel EXTREMELY slowly, and get off EXTREMELY slowly as well. Now measure the distance “B” from the pony tail to the bottom of the rail. A minus B is your current sag.

 

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

ultimately, the issue is at hand, why do i and many others think the suspension is harsh on the v13?

I don’t know, I haven’t seen many others write about it. Many have been positively surprised by the V13 suspension.

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

if u have any helpful suggestions on how to make the suspension better, i'm sure many v13 owners, as well as myself will be grateful.

First thing to do is to be coherent and organized about any testing you do. Set the compression/rebound as loose as possible, then locate your 30% sag. Now you have the air pressure to use in the shocks. Then locate a test run that has a few different kinds of bumps and crevices. Then ride through the track, tighten the compression/rebound half a turn, ride through the track again at the same speed and same style, then tighten the dampers again. Repeat until it starts getting worse, then go to the previous setting.

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

then u can start on the s22 suspension.

It has been fixed already, in a marvelous manner.

[novazeus]

2 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

You just said you pumped it up to 250 and tightened the dampening screw

nope, never said that. in fact i've never turned the damper adjustment past two and a half turns from it's counterclockwise position, ever. i had it at two turns from it's counter clockwise position and noticed pogoing effect, so i went a half turn more.

2 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

you pumped it up to 250

yeah, yesterday i pumped it up to 250 for the first time, because i've already tried 120, 150, 175, 200 and didn't get any discernable softening of the ride. also i wanted to see what @YourAubsomehad experienced at 250psi even though i weigh more than her, and it's easier and more scientific to start high and then deflate to lower psi settings as opposed to starting low, and waiting ten minutes and then pumping the shock up a few pounds before checking the suspension again. easier and common sense. i agree, 250psi is way too high.

2 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

you look at chooches last video @ 0.08 the wheel tilts forward but he stays on it and then it starts spinning the tire,

chooch and the wheel aren't at a standstill. his weight and the wheels weight add to the inertia. nothing to do with torque from a standstill.using ur legs to tilt the wheel forward from a standstill would overtax a wheel even more.

2 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

No body on the planet can torque the wheel better than someone with properly placed power pads

probably so, that's why wrongway demonstrated what he did just doing ankle flicks at near non forward motion, to show the wheels lack of torque at low end.

In physics, the kinetic energy of an object is the form of energy that it possesses due to its motion.^[1] It is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its stated velocity. Having gained this energy during its acceleration, the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes. The same amount of work is done by the body when decelerating from its current speedto a state of rest.

a tractor has gobs of torque, but adding velocity, combined with the weight of the tractor gives it more energy. 

in a vacuum, a ball tossed in the air, from a moving vehicle will come straight down back into ur hand. the only thing that doesn't add to velocity is the speed of light.a beam of light travels at the same speed regardless of the speed of the vehicle emitting it. 

what tire pressure are u running ur michelin at now?

 

[pico]

Finally I can use my "Calm Down" gif !  

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I’m happy to share my knowledge

i already posted a followup link on the people testing 15 different air pumps, and the pressure at 80psi, much lower than 250psi, were actually all lower. if they are correct about not losing a tiny bit of air unscrewing, i stand corrected. we have a saying on the ranch, even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then. 

and yeah, it's all relative and if u look at the chart i posted, all there measurements were lower than what the air pump stated, but stupid to argue about it.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

haven’t heard that they were.

that's what ustride said on facebook.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

hope you didn’t tighten too much. They need to be just right.

nope, like i said, one side was fairly snug, one side was looser for some reason. yeah, friction but no stiction.

 

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

One test I’ve accustomed to making to check my V11 suspension setup, is to first hold myself up against a wall and bounce up and down on the wheel. Then, I try to push forward through the wall with my both hands to emulate accelerating, and then hop up and down. The V11 at it’s default form becomes quite stiff. That’s when I started to look for the solution that has eventually materialized as waxing the sliders.

i'll try that tonight using my parallel rails. i truly believe there's nothing mechanically wrong with the way inmotion designed their suspension, it's just harsh. there's lots of different suspension set ups in the world. my corvette had magnetic particles that would be energized to stiffen the suspension. 

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

don’t know, I’d have to examine one to find out. But it does sound similar to what the V11 sounds when it reaches the upper end of the suspension travel.

what do u think is causing that noise is on ur v11? and when traveling down stairs

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

would assume that the V13 appears to have a low torque because of how the firmware is programmed. Meaning, it should be technically able to push out a lot more, but it has limits for the motor or battery current that are easily reached, especially at slower speeds.

yeah, that's what i've been saying.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

A good start is to rub an ample amount of paraffine wax (or a small unscented candle) on the visible part of the slider’s wearing edges.

that can be done without taking the wheel apart?

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Yes. And that’s what happened with your wheel as well when you were trolleying it up an incline. The motor put out the exact amount of torque that was required to keep itself upright. It didn’t “help” you push it up the incline, since that would’ve meant giving up on it’s main job as a self-balancing vehicle.

the wheel has no problem trolleying on a hard surface. it has a problem in sugar sand because rolling resistance of the tire. same as ur underinflated tire. how much do u weigh and how much does ur wheel weigh and what is the tire pressure.

 

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

don’t know, I haven’t seen many others write about it. Many have been positively surprised by the V13 suspension.

ure in ur tire in relation to the sidewall pressure at its maximum load carrying weight?

i've posted pictures of the sidewall ratings on my old ks 16s and 18s of 70 and 95kg, and yet the advice given on this forum, and still today, is not to run at max pressure, or stated pressure on the sidewall for a tire severely underrated.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

This should work: Take one of those fabric coated rubber bands that girls and jazz musicians wrap their pony tails with, and wrap it around the visible slider, as high as it gets. Measure the distance “A” from the pony tail to the bottom of the slider rail. Now stand up on the wheel EXTREMELY slowly, and get off EXTREMELY slowly as well. Now measure the distance “B” from the pony tail to the bottom of the rail. A minus B is your current sag.

it's outside now in it's keter box and it's finally raining, but i'll try that. idk if u can get one on the tubes that way. but i can figure out another way to measure sag. the s18 has a rubber band around its shock for measuring travel, so i'll try ur idea.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Set the compression/rebound as loose as possible

could u be more specific about how to do that? do u mean start with no air pressure in the shocks and turning the damper all the way counter clockwise so there is no  dampening? 

if i understand u correctly, let all the air out of the shocks and turn the damper screw all the way counter clockwise, then push down until it bottoms out, to find the actual bottoming out of the wheel?

good idea, i'll try that, along with trying to put a hair tie on the shocks to actually seeing if indeed the wheel is bottoming out or not. 

aren't there springs inside those tubes? do they figure into the equation at all?

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t know, I haven’t seen many others write about it. Many have been positively surprised by the V13 suspension.

wrongway, @youraubsome come to mind at the moment, the wheel hasn't been out very long. 

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

It has been fixed already, in a marvelous manner.

are u referring to the pro or the aftermarket sliders. and if maintenance is require ie taking the wheel apart every 500 miles, no thank you. freemotion is sending out replacement ball bearing sliders but if they require disassembly every 500 miles, i'll stick with the stock sliders.

 

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I’m not asking even for a “thank you”,

yeah, i never asked or cared about a thank u either for pointing out the underrated tires that euc manufacturers put on wheels years ago. my thank u was them obviously paying attention and using tires rated for the weight on these new wheels they are making today, and actually stating maximum payload in their literature now. 

i still think it's a bad idea to overload tires and then compounding the problem by not running the max sidewall psi for the tire at its rated capacity. as much as i like the portability of little wheels, other than for training purposes at slow speed, i won't buy another small wheel with an underrated tire. 

i realize that deflating a tire makes it easier to balance, and people can ride thousands of miles that way with no problems, but there's lots of other variables in play. 

and in real life, if u go a little over the gauge markings, u are actually closer to ur desired psi, because these air shock pumps are obviously not accurate. not that it matters, it's just ball park anyway. 

but good on u for pointing out that the fittings don't leak air when disconnecting. i knew they didn't leak but a tiny bit, a gnats breath i said, they are designed that way. but i did not know it was absolutely zero pressure when disconnecting. idk why they don't have similar fittings on tire pumps, because i'm much more concerned about air pressure in my motorcycle tires especially on the race tires. 1 psi difference is huge on them.

Edited April 12, 2023 by novazeus

[novazeus]

38 minutes ago, pico said:

Finally I can use my "Calm Down" gif !  

haha, i'm calm. i'd be riding now and not killing time typing if it wasn't raining right now. i need u to teach me ur tricks.

that one legged riding is black magic for me!

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, pico said:

Finally I can use my "Calm Down" gif !  

go see what @Paul Aposted in fire history. 

terrible!

bigger fish to fry! i know bad quote considering the news. but really. 

hang on to ur wheels because pevs might soon be a very niche market. 

i gotta change my land development plan.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

3 hours ago, novazeus said:

nope, never said that. in fact i've never turned the damper adjustment past two and a half turns from it's counterclockwise position, ever. i had it at two turns from it's counter clockwise position and noticed pogoing effect, so i went a half turn more

maybe i misunderstood you when you said this.

18 hours ago, novazeus said:

one of the shock tube adjuster things was loose and one was snug. so i tightened both until they were both snug

Perhaps you were talking about the slider adjustment.

3 hours ago, novazeus said:

what he did just doing ankle flicks at near non forward motion, to show the wheels lack of torque at low end.

I feel like it's defiantly like @mrelwood said, the current limiter is set way to low, i will have to test further but feel it should be better than it is. The initial dip is an issue for some.

3 hours ago, novazeus said:

lso i wanted to see what @YourAubsomehad experienced at 250psi even though i weigh more than her

You do realize her videos are for entertainment purposes only, It's not actual information. Nobody distributes factual information in their underwear and expects to be taken seriously. Especially with such an erroneous claim.

[novazeus]

48 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

maybe i misunderstood you when you said this.

Perhaps you were talking about the slider adjustment.

I feel like it's defiantly like @mrelwood said, the current limiter is set way to low, i will have to test further but feel it should be better than it is. The initial dip is an issue for some.

You do realize her videos are for entertainment purposes only, It's not actual information. Nobody distributes factual information in their underwear and expects to be taken seriously. Especially with such an erroneous claim.

i'm just referring to the racket the wheel makes going down the stairs. she's a far superior rider to me, which isn't saying much. i ride very plainly. starts and stopping. i can barely freemount because i don't have to and hate practicing it. i'm certainly no wheel expert. 

i know trying 250psi was wrong when i first stepped on the wheel, and the winds were 25mph with higher gusts according to the weather channel, but since i was experimenting, i did do two up and backs concentrating on these two depressions running perpendicular to my road, and weirdly enough, they felt the same as when i had it at 125psi. and yeah, i was referring to the slider adjustment that i was surprised actually needed adjustment. one side quite a bit, the other side not so much. my 250psi experiment was to eliminate any suspicion of it bottoming out. i know it's not doing that now. if anybody has any advice on setting the suspension softer for me, just my road, no jumps, curbs, stairs, etc, just tree roots and depressions, please do tell. once i get there, then i'll probably drop down to 35psi on the michelin tire and i'm sure it will be a piece of cake to ride then. like when i ride the s22.

my interest in thinking these toys could be used as real transportation has evaporated because of the fire issues. i'll still play with mine, but once i build my network of safe multiuse paths here, i'm pretty sure the bad news will get out and they will be banned. i prefer inline skating anyway. i won't let them ban it here, referring to inline skating, because i'll control this commercial mpud. govt is great about forcing their will on people, right or wrong.

and btw, i've never seen another wheel in person, only the 11 i have bought. i try to learn all i can before ordering one because the available info online is sketchy at best, and downright false. because i would have never bought the s18 with its crappy jiluer tire.  that wasn't the tire kuji demoed in his video. all i report and ask questions on are the ones i've purchased. i don't like to say never, but i doubt i'll ever own a gotway/begode wheel. i'm super paranoid about wheels and treat them very gently. if i ever crashed one, even if everything was just cosmetic damage, it would be going to neltrek for a complete inspection. 

i'm a housing expert. in florida, not worldwide. there is nobody in florida that does housing better than me, and that is more beneficial to people. 

i'm hoping mr wrongway will reply to my questions in his comment section.

here's some other comments.

i think his review is excellent from this novice rider's point of view after 725 miles of riding on my private road. the only place i ride. zero desire to leave the ranch and preferably never on a wheel, if i can get a girlfriend to come get me and Bob if i have to go off ranch. or i have persuaded developer prospects to run errands for me, like get gas and diesel. solar absolutely sucks. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by novazeus