2nd thoughts on purchasing the v12

[MDMason]

I have a V12 and S20 on order. I’m considering canceling the order on the V12 due to reported quality control issues and lack of torque. I currently have a S18 and have a difficult time acquiring any speed above 8 mph on a moderate incline. I’m 225 lbs and need more torque. Does anyone have a S18 that has ridden the V12. Any merit to my deductions? 

[UniVehje]

In your case it’s about your skills, not the wheel. Nobody rides uphill as fast as level, but you can learn to ride faster with your current wheel. The V12 should be easier to ride uphill because of the smaller diameter. Torque number of the wheel only matters if you can utilize it. Basically, if you don’t run out of torque (faceplant) you don’t benefit from more torque potential. The V12 should feel easier to ride uphill and you can access the torque with less effort. You need to ride up crazy steep inclines or accelerate like maniac to un out of torque and benefit from a motor wound for torque (like 16X). If you struggle with an 18X3” wheel, the best thing you can do is changing to smaller diameter of practice more. 

[EUCandME]

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

In your case it’s about your skills, not the wheel. Nobody rides uphill as fast as level, but you can learn to ride faster with your current wheel. The V12 should be easier to ride uphill because of the smaller diameter. Torque number of the wheel only matters if you can utilize it. Basically, if you don’t run out of torque (faceplant) you don’t benefit from more torque potential. The V12 should feel easier to ride uphill and you can access the torque with less effort. You need to ride up crazy steep inclines or accelerate like maniac to un out of torque and benefit from a motor wound for torque (like 16X). If you struggle with an 18X3” wheel, the best thing you can do is changing to smaller diameter of practice more. 

Just adding more to your explanation. An EUC is a very strange form of transport. The thing that helped me learn was the idea of an EUC working very similar to a gearbox despite not using one. For example on a car or a bike equipped with a gearbox think that when you are in 1st gear the torque is much higher however you are stuck at lower speeds. The higher you go up that gear box for example 5-6th gear, yes you can go faster but you have lost a lot of torque. (Think of how hard it is on a bike going up a hill in a high gear). Now once again to clarify the EUC obviously does not have a gearbox but its behaviours are very very similar. If you are going to tackle steep hills (Especially if you are a heavier rider) It is worth backing off on your wheels speed and utilize that low end torque. This is the equivalent of having to shift down in a car or on a bike. Hope this helps you @MDMason

 

Summarised: The lower the speed on an EUC the higher the torque. Therefore as stated by @UniVehje It would be unrealistic to expect any wheel to achieve top speed on an incline vs level ground. The V12 however should allow you to utilize that low end torque at higher speeds than your s18 so I think you will see some difference.     

Edited October 28, 2021 by EUCandME

[supercurio]

5 hours ago, MDMason said:

I have a V12 and S20 on order. I’m considering canceling the order on the V12 due to reported quality control issues and lack of torque. I currently have a S18 and have a difficult time acquiring any speed above 8 mph on a moderate incline. I’m 225 lbs and need more torque. Does anyone have a S18 that has ridden the V12. Any merit to my deductions? 

Hi @MDMason!

Could you show or describe your feet placement on your pedals?
Difficulty to access torque, which is needed in excess on inclines is likely due to your feet being significantly offset to the back.

The reason is simple: although EUCs always maintain balance based on your input, placing your feet more to the front makes accelerating easier (at the expense of ease of braking) and more to the rear makes braking easier (at the expense of ease of accelerating).
Then, power pads can increase leverage but this initial offset determined by foot placement remains.

Also maybe the ergonomics of the wheel doesn't suit you so well and that could be improved. Make sure you also allow yourself to bend your knees and lower your center of gravity to improve weight transfer to the front.

[Meserias]

please watch latest WrongWay youtube video about production model of V12
you will reevaluate your opinion about "lack of torque"

[mrelwood]

8 hours ago, EUCandME said:

The thing that helped me learn was the idea of an EUC working very similar to a gearbox

It’s indeed a pretty good analogy, but what is unclear to most is that what the input and output actually relate to. Input is not the wheel’s controller, but the rider! And output is not the tire, but the whole wheel+rider combo. If someone is unsuccessful in riding up a hill or accelerating fast enough for their liking, it’s not because the wheel doesn’t have enough torque. Just like @UniVehje explained.

 Torque is a difficult term to grasp, and a lot of people, like the OP, confuse it with effortlessness.

If the wheel doesn’t have enough actual torque, ie. thrust, it will fail to stay balanced. Because staying balanced is all that the wheel tries to do. It never tries to accelerate. WrongWay’s hill climb videos show this on many wheels, as they simply dip forward when overleaned. They don’t just stop climbing and stay balanced.

 If you feel that it takes too much effort or too steep a lean to get the wheel moving fast enough, you have a physics issue, not a lack of power or torque. The gearbox analogy applies, and you are the input. The first thing to do is to use a bit softer pedal mode. It makes it easier to lean. Pads help even further.

If that’s not enough, you need a smaller tire diameter. No other way around it. If you can’t overlean an 18” wheel, you are not even using all of it’s actual torque or thrust. You need more effortlessness. Or a better technique.

[RagingGrandpa]

13 hours ago, MDMason said:

EUC: Mini Pro, One Wheel, Mten3, V10 and S18

V12's performance is very impressive compared to those models. Stay the course!

[MDMason]

Thanks for all your input. I was hoping to hear from someone who has ridden both and could provide a comparison view point. Another issue is going from a suspension wheel to a non suspension one. The terrain I generally ride on is packed dirt and gravel. Riding my V10 after riding my S18 is like going from a BMW to a pickup truck.

Edited October 29, 2021 by MDMason

[pkinpdx]

I put 2k plus miles on an S18 and now own a V12.  I weigh around 215 and only had issues climbing super steep hills with the S18.  It has more to do with gaining leverage on the wheel than its lack of torque.  If your S18 isn't beeping or tilting back on you, you haven't used all its torque.  Yes it will do both those things climbing hills.  I ended up with clark jump pads and a set of upper pads from Sai as well as spiked plates for my feet.  That combo really dialed in the control over the s18. 

As much as I loved my S18... The V12 definitely has more torque than it.  The only wheel I have ridden that 100% beats the v12 for torque is the RST which is dialed down in top speed to specifically do that.  All other claims of other wheels having more torque than the v12 come down to feel.  Inmotion has a slightly different feel than any Gotway wheel will.  Inmotion lovers will call the feel "refined" where as Gotway lovers will say mushy.  Gotways just have a more immediate feel to any input that Inmotion doesn't have.  That lack of immediate feedback makes some Gotway riders say that it has no torque. 

For trail riding, I tended to ride the S18 at speeds that were slightly out of control and trusted the suspension to get me out of jams that my poor line picking got me in.  I do not do that on the V12.  I tend to ride slower with more control.  I can still ride all the same terrain but the smaller wheel and no suspension has to be accounted for.

[Tawpie]

24 minutes ago, pkinpdx said:

As much as I loved my S18... The V12 definitely has more torque than it

Phew. The V12 should have more torque (thrust) available than the S18, it has the advantage of a smaller diameter wheel AND a battery that's capable of delivering the required current. If it didn't, IM messed up!