Already Hitting Speed Limit

[PY ⠀]

Since I was so undecided about which wheel to buy after trying a bunch of them for 15 minutes each, I decided to rent one for a week. I went with the V10F as it’s the cheapest wheel I can get that goes 40km/h (25mph), and wanted to see how I feel about it. My riding experience is less than 60 km (36 miles) for all wheels combined and had not exceeded 30 km/h (19mph) prior to renting the V10F.

Yesterday I wont on a longer ride with the V10F, did some off road and street. After about an hour I was getting comfortable and started hitting the top speed, accompanied by the annoying sound warning and tiltback. I wanted more. This leaves me with no option but to look for a more powerful wheel.

In your opinion guys, would getting a ks16x bring me to a point where I hit the speed of 50km/h (30 mph), and the same story happens where Im left unsatisfied, wanting more? Or is the jump from 40 to 50 a whole other level?

In my consideration I also realize that the size/weight is important for me. I find the 45 pounds V10 already heavy for the commuting I want to do.. The 30 pound V8 was perfect in that sense. So Im stuck with the weight/speed problem.

With that said, would the GW Tesla be a good contender for me?

Edited November 3, 2019 by PY ⠀

[RockyTop]

I am impressed and ......concerned that you are Hitting the speed limit after just 36 miles on a wheel.  please be careful. 

Looking at the numbers the Tesla looks like a good wheel for you. .....However?  They have the same tire as the KS16s. That means they are hard suspension and squirrelly at 30mph compared to the 18" wheels and newer 16" wheels. The 18" wheels don't get cought On bumps and potholes as easy, and the new 16" tires have better absorbing abilities. 

I am on the larger size and use the MSX for everything. ......Honestly I also have the last model of the MSv3+ and like it better than many of the new wheels. 

The delema: In the car world you are looking at sports cars, SUVs and dump trucks and trying to find something that does everything. 

I think trying out the wheels is a great idea. Just keep in mind most Seasoned riders won't even give an option on a wheel until they have put 300 miles or more on it. You get used to your wheel and it becomes part of you. 

[RetroThruster]

If you are already hitting max speed and wanting more at 36 miles, you may as well get the fastest thing out there, my 16x is more than fast enough for me but I'm not a speed demon, surprisingly, I'm leaning towards more off road riding anyways.  I know I'm new (90 miles so far) but please be careful, I see a lot of these guys make it look so easy and think, I can do that, but in reality, if I got in a bad situation at 30 mph, I'd be screwed and on my head before I knew it...

Edited November 3, 2019 by RetroThruster

[RockyTop]

9 minutes ago, RetroThruster said:

surprisingly, I'm leaning towards more off road riding anyways. 

It is more enjoyable than one would think, isn't it. The causal trails are smooth and adventurous while the tougher trails present a challenge and a nice workout. You tend to learn skills quicker and safer. 

[Rywokast]

with only 60 km under your belt youre gonna kill yourself... i hope youre wearing adequate gear, yes the jump from 40 to 50 is quite significant, 40 is a very casual pace but 50 if usually reserved for those who have a lot of experience and in places where you know the terrain well, you have a split second of reaction time going that quick and it takes much much longer to slow down on a wheel capable of cruising at 50.. anything over 50 people generally dont cruise at very long, its more for short bursts of fun or for safety reasons (when youre on the road mingling with cars) it is not very comfortable to go over 50 for extended periods due to severe wind.. at least thats what i find, not to mention your battery will drain exponentially quicker at those speeds.. i might recommend the MSX since at least if youre going those speeds, it will be the most stable.. the tesla is a great vehicle but you will find it is not comfortable or practical on such a small wheel to go those speeds, not to mention with its relatively small battery, possibly unsafe if you arent on top of it.. but i dont know enough about your situation, maybe you only commute 10 km on nicely paved roads in which case the tesla would be great for you... just keep a few things in mind, the bigger the tire the more stable and comfortable it will be going at high speeds, the faster you go the faster you drain your battery (and it is not equivalent due to drag), the larger battery you have the bigger safety margin you have, and dont expect to be maintaining speeds above 50 for any length of time, its just not that practical.. yes its nice to have the ability to, but in reality its not a reason to choose one wheel over another if you ask me.. but yea i would say tesla or MSX.. both are relatively light weight, the tesla is much more convenient but the msx is much more comfortable for long or fast cruising.. i would probably not recommend the KS16X as it throttles at 50% battery,, i would definitely recommend an 18XL over the 16X

[RetroThruster]

6 hours ago, RockyTop said:

It is more enjoyable than one would think, isn't it. The causal trails are smooth and adventurous while the tougher trails present a challenge and a nice workout. You tend to learn skills quicker and safer. 

I totally agree!  Sorry to stray from original topic but I think it would be cool if some EUC's had more off-road capabilities, not entirely sure what that would entail other than more off road type tires but even that would help.  I'm thinking RockShox and clipless pedals, lol...  

[KAY GEE]

9 hours ago, PY ⠀ said:

Since I was so undecided about which wheel to buy after trying a bunch of them for 15 minutes each, I decided to rent one for a week. I went with the V10F as it’s the cheapest wheel I can get that goes 40km/h (25mph), and wanted to see how I feel about it. My riding experience is less than 60 km (36 miles) for all wheels combined and had not exceeded 30 km/h (19mph) prior to renting the V10F.

Yesterday I wont on a longer ride with the V10F, did some off road and street. After about an hour I was getting comfortable and started hitting the top speed, accompanied by the annoying sound warning and tiltback. I wanted more. This leaves me with no option but to look for a more powerful wheel.

In your opinion guys, would getting a ks16x bring me to a point where I hit the speed of 50km/h (30 mph), and the same story happens where Im left unsatisfied, wanting more? Or is the jump from 40 to 50 a whole other level?

In my consideration I also realize that the size/weight is important for me. I find the 45 pounds V10 already heavy for the commuting I want to do.. The 30 pound V8 was perfect in that sense. So Im stuck with the weight/speed problem.

With that said, would the GW Tesla be a good contender for me?

Forget bout the Tesla, go for the MSX.... 84v, 100v or the 100v Plus. You could also try the Nikola 100v 1845WH. Just make sure that you gear up properly if you are going to get the wheels mentioned above 

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[Rywokast]

1 hour ago, /Dev/Null said:

I bought my first wheel, a V10 , and at 95kg geared up I artifically limit it to 30km/h and tend to cruise at 20-25km/h just to make sure it has enough power to handle unexpect obstacles, bumps, hills, etc.  I want to make sure that unless something physically breaks in the wheel I never face plant.  I ride with full face helmet, chest armor, knee+shin & wrist guards & I still find averaging a bit over more than 20km/h more than sufficient.  My ride today drained at 20wh/km @ 22km/h or so, which is the most battery/km I've seen (past rides I average 15-16km/h and was using significantly less power).

Maybe it's just me, but I don't get wanting to go 40-50km/h as the risk is just too great (for me at least).

Maybe my views will change after I have more experience..?  I only have 250km or so under my belt.

trust me they will  and btw, the v10 (non F) is an 1800W nominal motor.. it can cruise at 40 kph all day without any risk of cutout.. inmotion tends to make safety the number one priority above anything and their top speeds and throttling reflect that so you can rest assured.. i have around 15k km on the KS16S with its 1200W motor and smaller tire (the smaller the tire, the more rotations it takes to go the same speed, making it essentially that much more work for the motor, compared to larger wheels which use more battery but can go a lot faster because there is less work for the motor to do).. anyways the 16S i cruise non stop riding the beeper (35 kph) and over those 15k km have not a single time had the wheel dip or violently tilt me back or anything of that nature, it has no problems whatsoever cruising at its top speed of 35 and thats like a three year old 1200W nominal motor.... 99% of the time any wheel ever "cuts out" is because a heavier rider over leans it, actual cutouts are extremely rare with any modern wheel

Edited November 4, 2019 by Rywokast

[Chriull]

9 hours ago, Rywokast said:

the smaller the tire, the more rotations it takes to go the same speed, making it essentially that much more work for the motor, compared to larger wheels which use more battery but can go a lot faster because there is less work for the motor to do)

Sorry - no. Its exactly the same work done/power needed. Power = torque times rotational speed. The same driving situation is determined by driving with both wheels at the same speed with the same forward pushing force needed (to overcome air drag, friction, accelerate and/or going up an incline). For the same speed the bigger wheel has less rotational speed by the factor of the radii. For the same force the bigger wheel has a higher torque by the factor of the radii. So the factor of the wheels radii is canceled...

[Rywokast]

19 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Sorry - no. Its exactly the same work done/power needed. Power = torque times rotational speed. The same driving situation is determined by driving with both wheels at the same speed with the same forward pushing force needed (to overcome air drag, friction, accelerate and/or going up an incline). For the same speed the bigger wheel has less rotational speed by the factor of the radii. For the same force the bigger wheel has a higher torque by the factor of the radii. So the factor of the wheels radii is canceled...

hmm then why is it with any euc the smaller they are the less speed they are capable of, even if they have the same motor, why for example was kingsong so hesitant to have the 16X go 50 when the old 18S and the 18L are perfectly capable of doing so and they even went so far as to make a whole new motor when the 16X boasts newer, stronger electronics.. why should it have been any problem whatsoever to cruise at 50 on it? i think its possible the motors are tuned for higher torque giving an advantage to larger wheels compared to a motor tuned for higher top speed which suffers from slow acceleration and deceleration making it more dangerous (MCM4 high speed vs high torque versions)

[PY ⠀]

On 11/3/2019 at 10:48 AM, RockyTop said:

Looking at the numbers the Tesla looks like a good wheel for you. .....However?  They have the same tire as the KS16s. That means they are hard suspension and squirrelly at 30mph compared to the 18" wheels and newer 16" wheels. The 18" wheels don't get cought On bumps and potholes as easy, and the new 16" tires have better absorbing abilities. 

Thats a good point I had’t thought about. Im trying a v10 and ks18xl this week and will better assess this. Thanks.

19 hours ago, Rywokast said:

but yea i would say tesla or MSX.. both are relatively light weight, the tesla is much more convenient but the msx is much more comfortable for long or fast cruising.. i would probably not recommend the KS16X as it throttles at 50% battery,, i would definitely recommend an 18XL over the 16X

Thanks for this, I didnt know about the throttling. Lots of ppl seem to recommend the 18xl.

 

16 hours ago, Rywokast said:

trust me they will  and btw, the v10 (non F) is an 1800W nominal motor.. it can cruise at 40 kph all day without any risk of cutout..

Thats strange cause my v10f keeps throttling down at 24 mph. I have to ride at 23 to not be bothered by it.

 

7 hours ago, Chriull said:

For the same speed the bigger wheel has less rotational speed by the factor of the radii. For the same force the bigger wheel has a higher torque by the factor of the radii. So the factor of the wheels radii is canceled...

Correct, and on top of that there are specific rotational speeds where the motor is more efficient. Sort of like sweet spots. This is why dual motor cars like Teslas use torque vectoring. The gearbox ratio of each motor is different and depending on the cruising speed, power will be shifted to the motor whose rotational speed is most efficient. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by PY ⠀

[Rywokast]

14 minutes ago, PY ⠀ said:

Thats strange cause my v10f keeps cutting out at 24 mph. I have to ride at 23 to not be bothered by it.

what do you mean by keeps cutting out? that would mean you would be having multiple faceplants on it, which would be more than bothersome if you ask me.. do you mean speed throttling?

[Chriull]

40 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

hmm then why is it with any euc the smaller they are the less speed they are capable of, even if they have the same motor,

For two wheels with the same motor, battery and firmware/motherboard but different wheel sizes the wheel with the bigger wheel will go faster but has less force.

40 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

why for example was kingsong so hesitant to have the 16X go 50 when the old 18S and the 18L are perfectly capable of doing so and they even went so far as to make a whole new motor when the 16X boasts newer, stronger electronics.. why should it have been any problem whatsoever to cruise at 50 on it?

Maybe it's just because its "easier and safer" to drive fast with an 18 inch than with an 16 inch? It's running "smoother"?

40 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

i think its possible the motors are tuned for higher torque giving an advantage to larger wheels compared to a motor tuned for higher top speed which suffers from slow acceleration and deceleration making it more dangerous (MCM4 high speed vs high torque versions)

Yes, maybe they just decided to make a torquier motor for the KS16X and skipped for this a bit max speed?

I have no idea what they did and thought...

[Rywokast]

40 minutes ago, Chriull said:

For two wheels with the same motor, battery and firmware/motherboard but different wheel sizes the wheel with the bigger wheel will go faster but has less force.

Maybe it's just because its "easier and safer" to drive fast with an 18 inch than with an 16 inch? It's running "smoother"?

Yes, maybe they just decided to make a torquier motor for the KS16X and skipped for this a bit max speed?

I have no idea what they did and thought...

I'm not sure, I don't pretend to be an expert in any of this just going from observations I always assumed it was easier on a motor to have less rpm why for example the calculated speed when lifting a nikola is less than that of a monster.. and why can't the nikola do the same speed as an MSX under no load? odd,, I think it's just down to how they make that specific wheel and how the motor is tuned because what you said makes total sense logically, that's why I was puzzled why they initially wanted to cap the 16X at 40 when it's years newer and using a more powerful motor than the 18S which does around 50

Edited November 4, 2019 by Rywokast

[Ben Kim]

with great power comes great responsibility. With that out of the way, go 100V gotway and don’t look back. Please gear up. 

[RockyTop]

3 hours ago, Rywokast said:

I'm not sure, I don't pretend to be an expert in any of this just going from observations I always assumed it was easier on a motor to have less rpm why for example the calculated speed when lifting a nikola is less than that of a monster.. and why can't the nikola do the same speed as an MSX under no load? odd,, I think it's just down to how they make that specific wheel and how the motor is tuned because what you said makes total sense logically, that's why I was puzzled why they initially wanted to cap the 16X at 40 when it's years newer and using a more powerful motor than the 18S which does around 50

You build a motor to fit the need. ( RPM, Voltage, Torque.) in the end as long as the motors are properly used the overall energy used to do the same job is the same. That is short of poor engineering. 

Now don’t get me wrong the Faster wheels can do things that the less powerful can’t. Hammer down and you can burn more energy. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by RockyTop

[erk1024]

9 hours ago, PY ⠀ said:

Thats a good point I had’t thought about. Im trying a v10 and ks18xl this week and will better assess this. Thanks.

You shouldn't be going these speeds until you have like ... 250 miles of riding experience. Kingsong limits a wheel's speed to 40kph for the first 125 miles for that reason--people feel invincible sometimes when they start riding. And if you want a light weight wheel and a fast cruising wheel, you may need TWO wheels. One for commuting, and one for fun. Do you really need to carry it, or can you use the trolley handle?

I basically ride my wheel at 50kph at all times, terrain permitting. And what @Rywokast is saying about the wind resistance is absolutely true. There is so much wind, you probably can't hear ANY beeps and you are using up batteries quite fast. I don't plan to go any faster than 50kph because I want plenty of headroom in terms of torque out of the wheel. And if I have a crash, I don't want to be going any faster.

The thing that's also true, is that even if a wheel can go 50kph doesn't mean you want to go 50kph on it. The Tesla has a skinny (2.125") tire that 16" in diameter. That size makes it zippy and nimble, but it's not built for high speed and stability. One good bump or pothole is going to send you flying off the pedals. Or you'll have a sideways death wobble. Or you'll be going fast, and the pavement will change, and (with low experience) you'll speed wobble too hard and crash.

When I was riding a Kingsong 18XL on bike paths, a few small bumps and I was getting pounded.... and that's on a 2.5" wide 18.5" diameter wheel. Basically the ride was so rough I had to limit my speed all the time. The Nikola+ with it's fatter 3" x 17.75" tire gives a better ride (also has a good, flexible tire compound). But if you're a speed demon, it's hard to beat the stability of the Monster with its huge 2.75" x 23" tire. That wheel is amazing at handling road hazards... and yes, I love it!

Edited November 4, 2019 by erk1024

[PY ⠀]

6 hours ago, Rywokast said:

what do you mean by keeps cutting out? that would mean you would be having multiple faceplants on it, which would be more than bothersome if you ask me.. do you mean speed throttling?

Yes, sorry

[Ben Kim]

2 hours ago, erk1024 said:

You shouldn't be going these speeds until you have like ... 250 miles of riding experience. Kingsong limits a wheel's speed to 40kph for the first 125 miles for that reason--people feel invincible sometimes when they start riding. And if you want a light weight wheel and a fast cruising wheel, you may need TWO wheels. One for commuting, and one for fun. Do you really need to carry it, or can you use the trolley handle?

I basically ride my wheel at 50kph at all time, terrain permitting. And what @Rywokast is saying about the wind resistance is absolutely true. There is so much wind, you probably can't hear ANY beeps and you are using up batteries quite fast. I don't plan to go any faster than 50kph because I want plenty of headroom in terms of torque out of the wheel. And if I have a crash, I don't want to be going any faster.

The thing that's also true, is that even if a wheel can go 50kph doesn't mean you want to go 50kph on it. The Tesla has a skinny (2.125") tire that 16" in diameter. That size makes it zippy and nimble, but it's not built for high speed and stability. One good bump or pothole is going to send you flying off the pedals. Or you'll have a sideways death wobble. Or you'll be going fast, and the pavement will change, and (with low experience) you'll speed wobble too hard and crash.

When I was riding a Kingsong 18XL on bike paths, a few small bumps and I was getting pounded.... and that's on a 2.5" wide 18.5" diameter wheel. Basically the ride was so rough I had to limit my speed all the time. The Nikola+ with it's fatter 3" x 17.75" tire gives a better ride (also has a good, flexible tire compound). But if you're a speed demon, it's hard to beat the stability of the Monster with its huge 2.75" x 23" tire. That wheel is amazing at handling road hazards... and yes, I love it!

That big ass Monster tire doesn't really do much for absorbing potholes/bumps, it's the most superior option out there for stability though at high speeds.  I don't see much difference in absorption between my Nikola and Monster (if anything the Nikola is even better because the tire is a softer compound. 

[erk1024]

1 hour ago, Ben Kim said:

That big ass Monster tire doesn't really do much for absorbing potholes/bumps, it's the most superior option out there for stability though at high speeds.  I don't see much difference in absorption between my Nikola and Monster (if anything the Nikola is even better because the tire is a softer compound. 

That's my experience as well. I wonder if we found a better tire for the Monster, we could get a more comfortable ride out of it. But for sure the Monster has more stability. The most comfortable psi for me on the Monster is around 38, but the problem is it feels sluggish and I get the 90 amp warnings on acceleration. If I pump it to 42, then it accelerates better and almost no 90amp warnings.

[Ben Kim]

8 minutes ago, erk1024 said:

That's my experience as well. I wonder if we found a better tire for the Monster, we could get a more comfortable ride out of it. But for sure the Monster has more stability. The most comfortable psi for me on the Monster is around 38, but the problem is it feels sluggish and I get the 90 amp warnings on acceleration. If I pump it to 42, then it accelerates better and almost no 90amp warnings.

I ride my Monster at 33psi, nikola at 38, then again you're probably a lot bigger than me.  I've heard of big guys making gotway wheels cutout by pushing too hard with no beeps, so something to be aware of.  

When you say 90 amp warnings, do you mean one you set up yourself in Wheellog?  I told you before, amp warnings in Wheellog are bs, stop wasting your time on them.

[erk1024]

33 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

I told you before, amp warnings in Wheellog are bs, stop wasting your time on them

People here say that the 80% warning, is just a speed warning that goes down as the voltage goes down. It's not actually 80% power, so you won't get any warnings on acceleration.

I set a 90amp warning in Darkness Bot. Why do you think it's BS? It seems to track with how hard I'm pushing the wheel.

[RockyTop]

If I remember correctly the monster is the only wheel that uses an actual motorcycle tire. The rest use a bike rated tire. 

[Ben Kim]

7 minutes ago, erk1024 said:

People here say that the 80% warning, is just a speed warning that goes down as the voltage goes down. It's not actually 80% power, so you won't get any warnings on acceleration.

I set a 90amp warning in Darkness Bot. Why do you think it's BS? It seems to track with how hard I'm pushing the wheel.

Two reasons:

1. its a calculation based on phase activity, not actual amps being drawn.

2. I regularly spike 100A in DB over and over again, sometimes for sustained periods of time, and i'm not even going that fast in some cases.  Considering the the typical 1845Wh pack can only sustain 60A max based on battery spec, it's fair to deduce that your 90A from normal riding is bs. 

3. If you used Wheellog and set a 90A alarm, you'd find it going off even further; as stated, it is a calculation not actual.

 

And yes, the 5-beep /1 sec is a condition of both battery SOC under load and speed traveled, they aren't wrong.  It is preceded by a 3-beep /1 sec warning which is an overamp warning in most cases.  I've yet to cut out respecting the 5-beep alarm on either wheel.  

FWIW: I did a 21 mile full-send run no stopping with a buddy of mine in a 2200Wh 100V MSX with my 100V Monster  at 30-35 MPH.  If 90, or even 100A within DB is cause for the wheel to cut out, it would have done it then.