MCM5 sudden acceleration/cut out at 23 or 24 mph

[Mono]

12 hours ago, maltocs said:

I'm okay with the wheel speeding up to get in front of me, I just dont understand why it would do it to a point of cut out where there is a 100% chance of a crash.

Agreed. I just also think that wheels not only should not do that but indeed do not do that.

12 hours ago, maltocs said:

If the wheel just tilted the petals back (ie tiltback) or just stopped increasing the power (as in just maintain power) to a point of cut out, there would be a less than 100% chance of crash. I feel that's what it should be doing. But then again, it is just a basic mechanical device and probably doesn't employ that much smarts.  

Modern wheels disengage the motor while riding only when they are heavily tilted (45º-or-so) or if they lose ground contact and spin out to max speed. During normal riding it is virtually impossible to reach the cutout speed (possibly when going downhill it may be).

[Chriull]

18 hours ago, maltocs said:

I was accelerating and it seemed to sudden accelerate me more until it cut out. I think in all cut out scenarios, one gets tossed forward, which is what happened to me.

In a "normal" tiltback scenario, as @Mono wrote the should accelerate (to come a bit in front of you/your centre of gravity) and should not accelerate "you" more...

18 hours ago, maltocs said:

But on this forum, everyone is telling me that for a wheel to accomplish tiltback, the unit must accelerate. Due to my own test (the video), it seems that acceleration IS INDEED what happens when the MCM5 hits the tiltback setting. This is not the tiltback I'm used to nor anything that actually makes sense to me. I'm used to it quickly changing the baseline angle of the petals to tiltback to force me to slow down and eventually step off. 

Yes, (again) as @Mono said, a wheel can only increase or decrease the motor torque and by this accelerate or decelerate. To change the pedal tilt angle upwards it has to accelerate (relatively to the rider) to come a bit in front of the rider.

18 hours ago, maltocs said:

Now I feel like I have always been on the edge (2-3 mph) of it cutting out.

Maybe, maybe not - speed is very relative and humans have no real absolute speed feeling. We feel acceleration and estimate speed by this acceleration and experience (how fast things pass by, wind noise/feel, ...)

17 hours ago, Mono said:

It seems we have different models of what is happening when the wheel increases its torque without the rider having changed the input/position. I think that the wheel speeds up to the front of the rider, while you seem to think that wheel and rider will speed up. If only the wheel speeds up, it becomes impossible for the rider to fall off to the front of the wheel and it will initiate a slow down of wheel and rider (which is what tiltback is meant to do) or the rider will fall off to the back.

This is exactly how i think a "normal/perfect" tiltback is and should happen.

I just know from a one time experience (way back with my 9bot1 E+) when i accelerated too fast into the tiltback and the tiltback hit me absolutely off guard. The first part, that the wheel accelerates relatively too me until the pedal tilts upwards happened "instantly" - but my reaction was not to lean back, brake or fall off the back. I desperately tried to keep my balance on the wheel, since i had some slight forward lean this happened on the tips of the pedal -> so the wheel had to accelerate more and the second step of tiltback was engaged (afair 9bot1 e+ had something ~7° and ~15° as the two tiltback "phases/steps").

Just then i forced myself to relax and lean back and brake.

17 hours ago, Mono said:

The only way to counteract an overlean on the wheel-side is to bring the motor closer to its limit.

+1

17 hours ago, Mono said:

So bringing the motor closer to its limit cannot in itself make an overlean more likely.

+1. If you look at my posts i never wrote "more likely" but "a bit earlier happening". From the current(torque) over speed diagram one is already going towards the limit, which happens to be "just a bit behind" the tiltback threshold. So the increasing torque brings one a bit faster to the limit, as it would happen anyhow. That was all i imo wrote (or at least tried to write).

Regarding this whole tiltback "theory" i just have also another hypthesis "sleeping in the back parts" of my brain. I had two incidents (one with my KS16C and one with my KS16S) where the wheel was "stopped/delayed" a bit by a small bump (road uneveness) so i fell forward, was trying to decide to just slam into the asphalt or if i should "jump", when the wheel started to give it's best and pushed me up again.

So as more and more seen with the new high performance wheels how people do some real forward lean - if this is "about" the riders position once tiltback "tries" to set in with additional acceleration the wheel has as good as no chance to come in front of the rider "whithin an instant". It's just pushing him forward and "tilting the rider a bit up".

So i'm very interested in a detailed description/explanation of @maltocs wording "it seemed to sudden accelerate me more"!

Other thoughts of mine are, as the MCM5 is a very "torquy" but "just" medium powerfull wheel and as before hitting the motor limit the wheel feels a bit "mushy" and seems to  have less power that the tiltback acceleration (torque increase) is already very hindered and so the wheel just can accelerate a bit more and not really "zip" in front of one?

17 hours ago, maltocs said:

I'm okay with the wheel speeding up to get in front of me, I just dont understand why it would do it to a point of cut out where there is a 100% chance of a crash. If the wheel just tilted the petals back (ie tiltback) or just stopped increasing the power (as in just maintain power) to a point of cut out, there would be a less than 100% chance of crash. I feel that's what it should be doing.  

 

5 hours ago, Mono said:

Agreed. I just also think that wheels not only should not do that but indeed do not do that.

All the EUC firmwares (/firmware developers seem) do not have any idea of the motor limits - there are no "overlean" limit dependend alarms,tiltbacks or whatsoever. Even tiltback is implemented very poorly, so that one gets the "tiltback of death" if one accelerates to fast into it - just a very simple speed threshold. The GW 80% beep (3rd alarm) already has to be seen as a huge innovation...

Seems to take some time until such "finesse" will be available - until now manufacturers seem to be still struggling to keep the basic functionality safely running ...

[maltocs]

7 hours ago, Chriull said:

So i'm very interested in a detailed description/explanation of @maltocs wording "it seemed to sudden accelerate me more"!

During my fall, I was accelerating from a stop sign on a very smooth road i've ridden many times before. It is a VERY VERY slight downgrade, hardly noticeable really. I know I was accelerating pretty hard, but not any harder than I normally accelerate. I didn't notice it, but I probably accelerated to a faster speed than I normally go. At some point, the wheel seemed to hard accelerate to a point where it cut out. I somewhat recall beeps but definitely not until the auto hard acceleration started. I launched forward to a beautiful right sided roll and escaped with a just medium bad right elbow scrape and slight right shoulder scrape, and very minor hand and right knee abrasion (under half inch each). 

I had tiltback set at the max the gotway app allows, which is 36 km/hr. Like I mentioned before, I must have turned the tiltback on at some point thinking that it would save me one day in case I didn't hear the 3rd alarm beeps. But in my case, when I hit the magic 23mph, it must have started the tiltback but because I was still accelerating (and i'm sure the slight downhill didn't help). It started to accelerate me more very quickly to a point of cutout. There was no time to react or attempt to slow down as the acceleration and cutout all happened very quickly.

13 hours ago, Mono said:

Modern wheels disengage the motor while riding only when they are heavily tilted (45º-or-so) or if they lose ground contact and spin out to max speed. During normal riding it is virtually impossible to reach the cutout speed (possibly when going downhill it may be).

I don't think I was 45 degree tilted. I am not a daredevil, especially when I have no protection. I am actually super cautious. As much as I ride hills or all different types and sizes, up and down, the last time I fell where I didn't WALK off was over a year ago during my 1st two months of riding and both times were on hills. Once was me riding into sand I didn't see as I was looking at my phone, once was when my wheel caught on something and I kept going. Full gear both times, very very minor injuries. I've never had a fall on a smooth surface. BUT THEN AGAIN, as I ride more, I am slowly increasing my comfort level at higher speeds. YOUR STATEMENT that it is virtually impossible during NORMAL riding to hit cutout is ASSUMING you have a high speed capable wheel. But as I learned the hard way, the MCM5 is NOT one of those wheels so it is not that hard to hit cut out. And with tiltback turned on, it is very easy to hit 23mph considering how fast it accelerates.  This is the reason why I have turned off tiltback as I believe with my weight, it should be able to get to a speed where I actually the third alarm without it sudden accelerating to cut out on me. But as I've turned back ON the 2nd alarm, hopefully, I'll never actually  hear the third alarm. speaking of which, I'm not a speed demon, i've NEVER hit a speed at which I've heard this alarm ever. 

 

Again, thanks for the, at this point, academic conversation. We've beat it to death but talking about it always helps. I haven't actually got back on wheels yet mostly because my wife already thought it was a dangerous sport and this fall only reinforces what she thought. (She used to work in a Hospital ER so she always thinks the worst.) Sure I can explain why it happened, but as you probably know, explaining the physics of a wheel and it's intricacies and what makes it do what it does to a NON-RIDER is not that easy. 

 

[Mono]

On 10/4/2019 at 1:07 AM, maltocs said:

And with tiltback turned on, it is very easy to hit 23mph considering how fast it accelerates.  This is the reason why I have turned off tiltback as I believe with my weight, it should be able to get to a speed where I actually the third alarm without it sudden accelerating to cut out on me.

What you describe didn't happen because of tiltback and it will happen again if you try without. Good luck.

[maltocs]

4 hours ago, Mono said:

What you describe didn't happen because of tiltback and it will happen again if you try without. Good luck.

I'm am going to respectfully disagree with you on this one. I firmly believe if I had the exact same scenario, same weight, level of acceleration, road, everything.... and if I had tiltback turned off, I would not have fallen. I believe the initiation of tilt back is why I fell. I suppose you can say it was an over lean fall, as I leaned into the tiltback which made the wheel rocket forward. But If tiltback was turned off, the rocket scenario would not have happened in the first place. But like I said, you are very entitled to your own opinion on what happened, but you were not on the wheel and don't know my modest riding style.  

[alcatraz]

Warning: This post contains personal opinion. Get ready to disagree, but I just want to present my thoughts.

If a tiltback can initiate a cutout it's useless. Whoever programmed the tiltback at that speed has done an error.

I've said this many times and it's that if you weigh more than the average chinese rider, you are pushing the power requirement of the wheel higher than a chinese wheel tester/designer has. If you're riding a brand that likes to offer performance first, safety second, then that's a dangerous area to explore when you hit the arbitrarily set tiltbacks.

A 14 inch wheel is unlikely tested with 100kg riders. Gotway has much bigger wheels for heavier people.

I think the OP has had the misfortune to create the perfect storm of bad luck.

1. Own faster wheels, create unconcious bad riding habits.

2. Be heavier.

3. Ride a brand that prioritizes performance first.

4. Ride a small wheel thats relatively untested at high weight.

[Mono]

19 hours ago, maltocs said:

I'm am going to respectfully disagree with you on this one. I firmly believe if I had the exact same scenario, same weight, level of acceleration, road, everything.... and if I had tiltback turned off, I would not have fallen.

Firm beliefs are notorious for being good recipes for winning the Darwin award.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Mono

[maltocs]

5 hours ago, Mono said:

Firm beliefs are notorious for being good recipes for winning the Darwin award.

Wow, I just have an opinion and respect yours and you have to be a dick about it.

[Chriull]

On 10/4/2019 at 1:07 AM, maltocs said:

I know I was accelerating pretty hard, but not any harder than I normally accelerate. I didn't notice it, but I probably accelerated to a faster speed than I normally go.

 

On 10/7/2019 at 4:19 AM, maltocs said:

and if I had tiltback turned off, I would not have fallen. I believe the initiation of tilt back is why I fell. I suppose you can say it was an over lean fall, as I leaned into the tiltback which made the wheel rocket forward.

From your description i get, that you fell because you leaned into the tiltback. This (or just "riding" the tiltback) is not what it is intended for and (at least) pushes the limits.

Why did you lean into the tiltback? Because you wanted to accelerate and had not intention to stop it?

Or was your intention to stop accelerating and you were "surprised/puzzled" by the additional acceleration and took a wrong decision? Or you feared of getting out of balance and "decided" to go on leaning forward?

Or you can't say if you would have gone on leaning or not - as all of this just happened and the decision to go on was taken somehow?

I also got surprised by a tiltback once and took some wrong/bit to late decissions but luckily without an overlean. I can understand why people decide to disable tiltback - as long as they don't do this as a safety measure. The motor limit is still unchanged and waiting to let them overlean...

On 10/7/2019 at 7:34 AM, alcatraz said:

If a tiltback can initiate a cutout it's useless. Whoever programmed the tiltback at that speed has done an error.

As by now tiltbacks are implemented they start at a certain speed - regardless of burden. So the higher the burden (acceleration, incline, ...) at this speed the tiltback happens nearer and nearer to the motor limit.

So if one comes near the motorlimit and it happens that the tiltback kicks in just before, it is natural for "human thinking" to correlate these events...

KS ?tried/tries? with the 16x to limit max speed (tiltback speed) more depending on battery voltage, Inmotion does this ?since the V8? as GW have their 3rd alarm (80% of some voltage dependend speed?) - this measure could bring the tiltback a bit "away" from the motor limit. maybe.

An insteresting try could be to make them (additionally) motor current (torque) dependend?

But still, if one leans into the tiltback one goes on accelerating and one will hit the motor limit again...

So enabling/disabling tiltback is no real safety measure - this is just a warning one has to "recognize". The only real measure against overlean (as you afair already wrote) is to not accelerate hard at higher speeds... .... which is a bit conservative and easily forgotten if one wants to quickly cross a street once the light went red or one is in thr process of overtaking, etc...

ps.:

Calculating and makeing the firmware aware (as mentioned above and some other times) could be a quite challenging task. The limit depends on the (no load) battery voltage, the internal resistance of the battery , the resistance of the copper motor coil and the motor current. Voltage measurement of the battery is known "a bit" inaccurate, the internal resistance of the batteries is only in a first approximation constant/ohmic and changes over time vastly with cell degradation, copper has a regardable temperature coefficient. Regarding all this influences in a proper way could maybe lead to a to huge safety margin to cover the worst cases or a warning again to near to the limit. Until the manufacturers could come to such "solutions" ambitious testing, experience and accurate designs will be needed.... Until then we have to live with the shortcommings and more importantly know and "respect" them.

[Mono]

5 hours ago, maltocs said:

Wow, I just have an opinion and respect yours and you have to be a dick about it.

It was just a gentle reminder that some beliefs are more dangerous than others.

I usually strive to understand mechanisms and try to avoid to have an opinion.

31 minutes ago, Chriull said:

From your description i get, that you fell because you leaned into the tiltback. This (or just "riding" the tiltback) is not what it is intended for and (at least) pushes the limits.

Maybe I missed it, but I only saw that tiltback was used as an explanation after the fact. It was not something observed during the incident. The first claim was even that tiltback was turned off during the incident.

On 9/27/2019 at 1:05 PM, maltocs said:

tiltback was turned off along with both speed alarms.

So I have no good reason to believe that the wheel actually tilted back during the incident (while the later experiment clearly suggests that tiltback was active). The incident just looks like the classical overlean under strong acceleration before the tiltback speed is reached. It's just that @maltocs doesn't believe that this is a thing.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Mono

[Chriull]

22 minutes ago, Mono said:

Maybe I missed it, but I only saw that tiltback was used as an explanation after the fact. It was not something observed during the incident. The first claim was even that tiltback was turned off during the incident.

 

Yes, but then he wrote:

On 9/28/2019 at 1:44 AM, maltocs said:

With everyone's advice, I did more tests. Turns out, IT WAS THE TILTBACK SETTING. It seemed to be turned ON to the max 36km/hr.

 

[Mono]

44 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Yes, but then he wrote:

Right, it was reasoning after the fact, not because tiltback was observed during the incident but because we(!) convinced him that tiltback was activated and he started to be convinced that this can be the only possible reason (I guess because he doesn't believe that a simple overlean is a thing).

Edited October 8, 2019 by Mono

[maltocs]

7 hours ago, Chriull said:

From your description i get, that you fell because you leaned into the tiltback. This (or just "riding" the tiltback) is not what it is intended for and (at least) pushes the limits.

Why did you lean into the tiltback? Because you wanted to accelerate and had not intention to stop it?

Or was your intention to stop accelerating and you were "surprised/puzzled" by the additional acceleration and took a wrong decision? Or you feared of getting out of balance and "decided" to go on leaning forward?

Or you can't say if you would have gone on leaning or not - as all of this just happened and the decision to go on was taken somehow?

I also got surprised by a tiltback once and took some wrong/bit to late decissions but luckily without an overlean. I can understand why people decide to disable tiltback - as long as they don't do this as a safety measure. The motor limit is still unchanged and waiting to let them overlean...

 

7 hours ago, Mono said:

Maybe I missed it, but I only saw that tiltback was used as an explanation after the fact. It was not something observed during the incident. The first claim was even that tiltback was turned off during the incident.

 

7 hours ago, Mono said:

So I have no good reason to believe that the wheel actually tilted back during the incident (while the later experiment clearly suggests that tiltback was active). The incident just looks like the classical overlean under strong acceleration before the tiltback speed is reached. It's just that @maltocs doesn't believe that this is a thing.

To address everything above:

initially yes, I thought tiltback was turned off, in my testing, it definitely was turned on. Before this accident, I thought that tiltback was just the pedals tilting back, as that's the only kind of tiltback I've ever experienced. You can see on this forum, I'm the 200lb guy who is always struggling with overheats going up mountains. I had this issue with the V10F and again with Nikola. While going at medium to slow sleeps, always uphills, I would get an overheat or "overload, please get off" warning followed by a tiltback to a point where i'm forced to step off the pedals. This usually occurs when i'm going <10mph. 

AFTER the accident and on this forum and on this thread, I learned that regular tiltback involves the wheel speeding up to get in front of me.  SO therefore I learned that "leaning into the tiltback" is a thing. This is how I fell. My failure to understand the mechanics of how high speed tiltback works. 

During my fall, I was just accelerating as far as I knew. Like I said, I didn't know of the concept of leaning into tiltback. In my mind, all i ever do is accelerate until I hear my beeps and stop accelerating. However, I never hear beeps on this device because I never go that fast. I accelerated, the wheel seemed to automatically go even faster then cut out. No beeps until it was too late. Layman's description. 

Of all my wheels, I feel the MCM5 is the wheel I'm most comfortable with. I know how much to accelerate. This is my primary wheel I ride around town. I didn't all of a sudden do a crazy acceleration that day when I was not wearing any helmet or hear. I just accelerated to faster speed than I normally did. It was not an overlean, it was a lean into tiltback. This is the reason why I believe if tiltback wasn't turned on,  this crash would not happened. 

I had mentioned although I didn't have wheel log logging, it was on. It measured top speed at 30.6 mph. Does anyone know if overlean causes the wheel to spinout or just cut out instantly? It wouldn't have gotten to 30.6 if it just cuts out.

Thanks for the analysis.

[Chriull]

17 minutes ago, maltocs said:

I just accelerated to faster speed than I normally did. It was not an overlean, it was a lean into tiltback. This is the reason why I believe if tiltback wasn't turned on,  this crash would not happened. 

No matter if tiltback or no tiltback - if one leans forward or has the weight on the front of the pedals one forced the wheel to accelerate!

Tiltback is intented to get the rider leaning back to decelerate. The rider cannot be forced to lean back - so if one does "ignore this hint" and still leans forward "into the tiltback" one goes on accelerating up to the motor limit and overleans. (Quite) exactly the same as one just leaning forward, with disabled tiltback, one will accelerate into the limit and overlean!

17 minutes ago, maltocs said:

I had mentioned although I didn't have wheel log logging, it was on. It measured top speed at 30.6 mph.

30.6mph ~49km/h could be around lift cut off speed of the MCM5 (with not full batteries)?

After an accident the wheels often tumbles around and spin up to maximum possible speed...

17 minutes ago, maltocs said:

Does anyone know if overlean causes the wheel to spinout or just cut out instantly?

Overlean just means that the wheel cannot provide enough torque anymore to counter the riders forward lean - so the rider falls forward/overleans. No cut out, no spinout.

17 minutes ago, maltocs said:

It wouldn't have gotten to 30.6 if it just cuts out.

According to 

this 30.6 mph happened most probably after the accident once the wheel "got into air" and spun up freely.

[maltocs]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

No matter if tiltback or no tiltback - if one leans forward or has the weight on the front of the pedals one forced the wheel to accelerate!

Tiltback is intented to get the rider leaning back to decelerate. The rider cannot be forced to lean back - so if one does "ignore this hint" and still leans forward "into the tiltback" one goes on accelerating up to the motor limit and overleans. (Quite) exactly the same as one just leaning forward, with disabled tiltback, one will accelerate into the limit and overlean!

Typically, I accelerate from zero to what is uncomfortable (given the conditions and whether or not I'm wearing protection) then drop down to what is comfortable and cruise there. On the MCM5, that usually means I go zero to maybe 20 then drop back down to about 18 where i'm comfortable. Hypothetically,  Lets say that day I was feeling especialily good that day and  I went zero to 25, , then decided to drop down to lets say 20mph.  

Now if I had tiltback turned on, it would have initiated at 23 and accelerated me even faster (which is what I believe happened). However, if tiltback was turned off, tiltback would have never initiated and I would have just hit 25mph and then be able to drop back down to 20 like any regular day. If I went even faster, I would have heard the 5 beeps/sec at about 27 and would have definitely let off the gas.

Am I incorrect here? 

and for the record, i'm going to stick with my 20 back down to 18 from now on and keep the 2nd alarm on!

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by maltocs

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

if one leans forward or has the weight on the front of the pedals one forced the wheel to accelerate!

And this is the easiest way to "lean forward", which is true on the wheel and when standing on firm ground: one initially releases(!) pressure over the forefoot. Standing on firm ground like this the body will immediately start to fall forward, because it lacks support at the front. On the wheel the wheel will slow down and move behind the body. All these are quite subtle movements and one has to pay close attention to recognize them. On the other hand, knowing them makes it much easier to control balance and movements (on firm ground as well as on the wheel).

[Mono]

13 minutes ago, maltocs said:

Am I incorrect here? 

Yes, still. Tiltback doesn't not accelerate you. Unless you take very specific actions to prevent this (namely lifting the forefoot), tiltback accelerates the wheel to the front of you which makes you lean back and thereby forces you to slow down.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Mono

[maltocs]

3 minutes ago, Mono said:

Yes, still. Tiltback doesn't not accelerate you. Unless you take very specific actions to prevent this, tiltback accelerates the wheel to the front of you which makes you lean back and thereby forces you to slow down.

tiltback doesn't accelerate me?? I'm standing on the wheel?!?! and if i'm leaning forwarding during this tiltback, won't I also go faster? I'm just saying if my plan was just to hit 25 and then back down, you still think I would have fallen with tiltback turned off?

[Mono]

22 minutes ago, maltocs said:

tiltback doesn't accelerate me??

correct.

Quote

I'm standing on the wheel?!?!

Right, we assume that to be the case.

Quote

and if i'm leaning forwarding during this tiltback, won't I also go faster?

Of course, if you lean (further) forward you will go faster, irrespectively of tiltback. Tiltback however will make you rather lean backward than (further) forward. If you didn't notice tiltback you are not likely to have run into it.

Quote

I'm just saying if my plan was just to hit 25 and then back down, you still think I would have fallen with tiltback turned off?

Yes, probably. If you accelerate with constant acceleration you just fall off to the front of the wheel at some point (AKA overlean). At which speed you fall off depends on how quickly you accelerate. The fiercier you accelerate the lower is the speed at which you just fall off to front of the wheel. Totally unrelated to tiltback.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Mono

[Chriull]

47 minutes ago, maltocs said:

Typically, I accelerate from zero to what is uncomfortable (given the conditions and whether or not I'm wearing protection) then drop down to what is comfortable and cruise there. On the MCM5, that usually means I go zero to maybe 20 then drop back down to about 18 where i'm comfortable.

20mph~32km/h - looking at the max speeds (80% alarm) from the above link for the 84V mcm5 they are from 33 km/h at 10% charge and 43 km/h at 100%.

With low to some medium accelerations you will reach "safely" to this speeds and hear the alarm. ...if the batteries are "quite" full.

If there happens to be some incline, road uneveness, head wind, battery a bit lower than thought or acceleration a bit higher than thought you'll overlean below this speeds without ever hearing a beep!

With some nice acceleration its "easily" possible to overlean below these speeds.

Quote

Hypothetically,  Lets say that day I was feeling especialily good that day and  I went zero to 25, , then decided to drop down to lets say 20mph.  

Could easily be that you never reach this 25mph~40km/h and don't feel anyhow good anymore!

That's just 3 km/h below the 3rd alarm at full batterys - some nice acceleration is more than enough to overlean at this speed.

Quote

Now if I had tiltback turned on, it would have initiated at 23 and accelerated me even faster (which is what I believe happened).

Then you are in exactly the same overlean danger as before "feeling especially good"!

But now you know this "additional acelleration" is the tiltback trying to warn you and you have maybe still the chance to lean back and brake immedeately!

Quote

However, if tiltback was turned off, tiltback would have never initiated and I would have just hit 25mph and then be able to drop back down to 20 like any regular day.

As written before - only with low accelerations! And with low accelerations the tiltback behaves "normal" - it just tilts the pedals up and you brake a bit and everything is fine!

Try once to set the tiltback to some low 5-10 mph and try out the different behaviours - so you learn how it behaves/feels/reacts...

Quote

If I went even faster, I would have heard the 5 beeps/sec at about 27 and would have definitely let off the gas.

Am I incorrect here? 

Yes and no. Imo a bit more yes

But depends very much, as written above on the riding style and the "enviromental conditions"

Quote

and for the record, i'm going to stick with my 20 back down to 18 from now on and keep the 2nd alarm on!

 

! Perfect solution! With above ~50% battery about almost all accelerations should be save in this range, with "just" medium accelerations at almost 20mph even better!

Edit: ps: with my ks16s i have tiltback at 22mph and imho/afair also the only alarm set at this speed. I "trained" mayself to "as good as always" reach this speed with quite low acceleration. So i feel the tiny movement when tiltback tries to set in and just keep the speed. I (almost) never hear the beep, had no probs with the tiltback and no overleans (*crossingmyfingers*).

If one wants more fun (higher accelerations at higher speeds) one needs a stronger wheel! There are enough alternatives by now.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Chriull

[Mono]

20 hours ago, maltocs said:

tiltback doesn't accelerate me?? I'm standing on the wheel?!?!

Here is an intuitive analogy which just came in my mind: you stand on a carpet and someone is pulling the carpet to the front (i.e. quickly accelerates the carpet). What will happen? Your feet will move to the front while your body will be left behind and you will fall on your butt. That's the situation when the wheel suddenly starts to accelerate under you (EDIT: as with tiltback, meaning, tiltback, unless the rider reacts to it quickly, accelerates the wheel and feet but does not accelerate the upper body of the rider).

Edited October 9, 2019 by Mono

[maltocs]

4 hours ago, Chriull said:

But now you know this "additional acelleration" is the tiltback trying to warn you and you have maybe still the chance to lean back and brake immedeately!

 

4 hours ago, Chriull said:

As written before - only with low accelerations! And with low accelerations the tiltback behaves "normal" - it just tilts the pedals up and you brake a bit and everything is fine!

Try once to set the tiltback to some low 5-10 mph and try out the different behaviours - so you learn how it behaves/feels/reacts...

I used to own a ninebot S1 and currently own a ninebot minipro also. Those things are tilting back all day long. I know the feeling of tiltback due to speed. I just always felt it was just tilting the pedals back, but accelerating while doing it. But both those devices had a max speed of about 13mph, so it's probably a lot easier to do a low speed tiltback warning.

4 hours ago, Chriull said:

If one wants more fun (higher accelerations at higher speeds) one needs a stronger wheel! There are enough alternatives by now.

have you tried the mcm5?? This is the peppiest wheel I've ever been on, it's so fun. The thing that makes it fun is it's peppiness, quick acceleration, and nimbleness, .... oh the power! But i'll just keep the fun below 20mph on this wheel from now on.

@Mono, it seems that you are under the impression that tiltback does NOT accelerate the wheel at all??? I was with you on that one, before the fall that is. But it seems that most on this forum seem to tell me that a part of tiltback is the wheel accelerating. I see that you list that you are currently riding a InMotion V8. I have a v10F and I feel with that wheel your description is correct. InMotions I feel are the safest wheels made. There seems to be acceleration controls (sometimes I'm on my tippy toes getting it to accelerate faster), there is no fuse to blow, it's kicking me off via tiltback a lot and I safely get off everytime. It doesn't seem to speed up, only tilt the pedals back. (I've never hit a high speed tiltback, only overload tiltbacks). It pisses me off, but I safely get off. Maybe that's why we have a disconnect. I'm specifically talking about the MCM5's behavior at high speeds.

[Mono]

15 hours ago, maltocs said:

@Mono, it seems that you are under the impression that tiltback does NOT accelerate the wheel at all???

That's not at all my conception of tiltback. I have no idea why you could have possibly got this impression. Read this ("tiltback accelerates the wheel to the front of you which makes you lean back and thereby forces you to slow down") and this.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Mono

[mrelwood]

 

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I just always felt it was just tilting the pedals back, but accelerating while doing it.

You seem to consider tilt-back and speeding up as separate actions, and that the wheel can decide which one to do.

When you tested the top speed behaviour at home on a stand, the pedals of course didn’t tilt back despite the tilt-back speed was reached. So the tire obviously has to be on the ground for the tilt-back to work.

When the tire is on the ground, what does the mainboard tell the motor to do when it wants to tilt back? Since a tire can only spin faster or slower, it only has those two choices.

Quote

@Mono, it seems that you are under the impression that tiltback does NOT accelerate the wheel at all???

He’s not. He said that tilt-back doesn’t accelerate the rider. (The carpet example was marvellous!)

 

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It doesn't seem to speed up, only tilt the pedals back.

It might feel that way. But how would that work/happen exactly?

Think about a bicycle rider that’s doing a wheelie. If he needs to lift the front end higher, what does he do?

That’s right, he accelerates, because that is the only way it can be done when riding on a single tire.

But unless the front end is too low already, he doesn’t really gain speed himself.

Edited October 9, 2019 by mrelwood

[maltocs]

41 minutes ago, Mono said:

That's not at all my conception of tiltback. I have no idea why you could have possibly got this impression. Read this ("tiltback accelerates the wheel to the front of you which makes you lean back and thereby forces you to slow down") and this.

 

22 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

He’s not. He said that tilt-back doesn’t accelerate the rider. (The carpet example was marvellous!)

Okay, got it. Can't argue with you there. Lets talk terminology, what would it be called when one does the following:

I'm accelerating and leaning forward when tiltback begins, i don't notice the tiltback and just push forward. (is this called riding the tiltback?) And in this case, the wheel WOULD accelerate even more than I intended (surprise!) because I'm still pushing forward. However if tiltback wasn't turned on, I would probably accelerate as I intended?