Balance required

[Mono]

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I would say it is precisely because of the gyroscopic effect

Sure, but you would also be wrong if you would say so 

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Not sure what you mean. You don't need to twist at speed,

You do need to twist at speed, but the twist movements become so small (because twisting becomes so effective) that you don't even notice them. One way to easily demonstrate this: try to ride a bicycle with a front wheel that you cannot twist. Also watching the vid on bicycles linked here should help a lot. Another way to see this: with a uni- or bicycles it is difficult to steer away from a line without crossing the line first (because of countersteering) and it is difficult to stay precisely on a given line at any speed. The reason is that we crucially use steering to keep balance.

Quote

and at lower speed is where twisting comes into play. So isn't it effective right at low speed?

It's not rocket science but extremely simple geometry: the side displacement of the wheel for any given constant twist angle and constant time (which is the right normalization, because we want to control the effects of gravity) is proportional to speed. That's why we start twisting like crazy at low speed: to get enough side displacement to stay balanced we need large angles.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Mono

[meepmeepmayer]

5 minutes ago, Mono said:

Sure, but you would also be wrong if you would say so 

Sorry I don't believe that unless you have a really good argument

8 minutes ago, Mono said:

You do need to twist at speed, but the twist movements become so small (because twisting becomes so effective) that you don't even notice them.

Well I don't count that as "twisting", otherwise technically you always do every single thing while riding.

8 minutes ago, Mono said:

It's not rocket science but extremely simple geometry: the side displacement of the wheel for any given constant twist angle and constant time (which is the right normalization, because we want to control the effects of gravity) is proportional to speed. That's why we start twisting like crazy at low speed: to get enough side displacement to stay balanced.

Ok, that's what you mean by "effective" (maybe "efficient" would be a better word). I meant "the thing you do that works", aka (semi-)conscious notable hip twisting motions. Which is what you do more and more the lower the speed gets.

[LanghamP]

4 hours ago, Mono said:

Did you ever try this yourself?

In regards to keeping a motorcycle upright at a stoplight... I've heard of this many times about the flywheel when spinning can keep you semi upright.

However, I have tried to detect if there's any perceptible difference between between an off engine and an 8000 rpm engine. 400 cc to 1200 cc, it's all imperceptible to me.

[LanghamP]

4 hours ago, Mono said:

because we want to control the effects of gravity) is proportional to speed. That's why we start twisting like crazy at low speed: to get enough side displacement to stay balanced.

From what I've observed, most riders eventually avoid very low speeds entirely, and replace it with pendulums. Pendulums seem to be the favored "cool  maneuverable slow speed lazy way of moving forward without requiring a great deal of skill".

[Mono]

3 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

From what I've observed, most riders eventually avoid very low speeds entirely, and replace it with pendulums. Pendulums seem to be the favored "cool  maneuverable slow speed lazy way of moving forward without requiring a great deal of skill".

Pendulums/idling increases the speed of the wheel and hence make twist-balancing effective even when the rider body is at stand-still. One can look at idling also as constantly moving the wheel under the rider to the right place of support. Even though I wouldn't necessarily agree with the judgement that this does not require a great deal of skill, I do use less and less of the typical large amplitude pendulum in my riding.

[comp_2]

On 7/28/2019 at 9:29 AM, TonyGrayCanada said:

There's a huge range in how quickly people pick it up, don't feel bad.  It seems impossible until something 'clicks', then it seems to happen on its own.

My top two, fwiw:

1) Stand as upright as possible, fight the urge to crouch forward.

2) Don't look at the ground, look at the horizon. Keep your head up.

I found it tricky because in both cases you're fighting natural urges that work against you.

 

Very much agree with all these observations.  I got kind of discouraged because of some pretty bad spills (thank goodness for protective gear!!) and didn't do it for 4 to 6 weeks.  When I took it out a couple of days ago, it "clicked" and I've since logged about 30 miles in 3 days without major spills or black and blue calves.  And yes, keeping the body straight and not looking at your feet or the ground help greatly.  As does looking where you want to turn.  I also found riding for looong time in an empty parking lot quite helpful.  

Oh, I won't see 'clicking' means riding perfection, but it's definitely the next level.  I can actually go someplace now.  But always, always, always with full safety gear.

[Marv]

As an older Rider I had to develop my own learning technique. Probably did not follow what everybody recommends. I practice learning how to ride along the wall but noticed that I was locked on one leg or the other which would then cause a step off. I overcame this by alternating my the weight on each pedal. I just practiced Shifting the weight from side to side so I would always be kind of passing through neutral position. The second phase was to learn to lean forward back straight while shifting side to side. After I Advanced on these two elements stepping off and on was fairly easy for me cuz my muscle memory could adjust my balance as required. It took me about 2 hours to where I could ride without stepping off. My turning is still primitive and will not go in the traffic yet.

The most important thing is that you get it don't quit

 

[TonyGrayCanada]

On 8/11/2019 at 11:48 PM, Marv said:

As an older Rider I had to develop my own learning technique. Probably did not follow what everybody recommends. I practice learning how to ride along the wall but noticed that I was locked on one leg or the other which would then cause a step off. I overcame this by alternating my the weight on each pedal. I just practiced Shifting the weight from side to side so I would always be kind of passing through neutral position. The second phase was to learn to lean forward back straight while shifting side to side. After I Advanced on these two elements stepping off and on was fairly easy for me cuz my muscle memory could adjust my balance as required. It took me about 2 hours to where I could ride without stepping off. My turning is still primitive and will not go in the traffic yet.

The most important thing is that you get it don't quit

 

Me too.  At 53 I certainly find it takes me longer to pick up these reflex type skills.  I still can't pendulum, I can only ride backward unsteadily in a straight line for short distances, and my forward/backward transitions work maybe 2 times out of 3.

I'm lucky to have lots of bike trails to ride on, I limit my time around cars to an absolute minimum.

[Rehab1]

On 8/10/2019 at 9:47 PM, comp_2 said:

Oh, I won't see 'clicking' means riding perfection, but it's definitely the next level.  I can actually go someplace now.  But always, always, always with full safety gear.

 

On 8/12/2019 at 2:48 AM, Marv said:

The most important thing is that you get it don't quit

 

30 minutes ago, TonyGrayCanada said:

Me too.  At 53 I certainly find it takes me longer to pick up these reflex type skills.  I still can't pendulum, I can only ride backward unsteadily in a straight line for short distances, and my forward/backward transitions work maybe 2 times out of 3.

I just caught this thread. I’m glad you guys are getting the hang of riding. You won’t regret learning this new skill.