Help with high speed turning / cornering

[scotchtape]

Got the MSX a few days ago and have been trying to adjust after riding the 14'' thin wheel IPS I5.  MSX is the compete opposite!

Am still figuring things out but I noticed when changing direction at over 30kmh my outside leg has a lot of weight on it and I'm leaning heavily into the "turn".  The feet seem to be opposite of turning at slow speeds on my i5 where I tip everything, foot and body into sharp turns.  It feels like I am pressing the MSX wheel with my feet in the opposite direction of my body lean.

Am I doing something wrong?

I'm away on a trip now but I thought I would ask for some help so I can try different things when I get home. Thanks for the help!

[meepmeepmayer]

Nothing wrong here! The MSX is reportedly very directionally stable (wants to keep going straight), right after the Z10 which apparently needs motorcycle-level effort for turning. So more or different effort is needed to control it. As long as you can control it, you're doing it right.

In general, you'll turn a heavier, wider stance wheel by rotating your upper body (just look where you want to go and the shoulders and rest follow) instead of shifting weight between the legs (how you do on thin, light wheels, especially on the super-narrow i5). You can ride curves without doing anything with your legs.

Throwing your body into a curve so the wheel must follow (what you describe) can also happen with very wide tires.

Body rotation will be the main method for doing curves on an MSX. You just need to get used to it if you never done that before. I had the opposite thing, learning to control a thin V8 with subtle legwork coming from my wide ACM. Took a minute before I could ride in a straight line instead of wobbling around and oversteering. You might be understeering initially, so just rotate your upper until you do the turn you want.

Try it.

Edited May 20, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[LanghamP]

Unfortunately EUC are extremely hard, and in my opinion impossible, to keep a constant radius with a constant lean angle turn. Instead, at all times for all turns one describes an S turning pattern. You can make it fairly constant by leaning off the wheel one way or another...basically using your weight...but as far as I can tell wheels require constant S turns or leaning off the wheel.

In contrast, any two wheeled vehicle can angle its front tire to achieve a constant lean constant turn. They use their rear tires as a keel, so to speak, in order to provide the rider with leverage that doesn't move, but no such keel is available to EUC riders.

As an example, take the Z10 and try to ride it in a large perfect circle.

1. You get one countersteer, after which the wheel rights itself. Keep doing that and that's the S turn, but be mindful that everytime you twist your hips to turn the wheel you have to untwist before you can twist again. You have to "pay" with time before you can chamber another round, so to speak.

2. Lean off the wheel.

In my opinion, wheels having "no keel" places a very hard limit on the top speed of wheels, beyond which countersteering won't be enough to get you around a turn and where you can't lean far enough off the wheel to get it to make the turn.

[Garrie Lim]

i ride the msx and when doing a high speed turn, you have to be committed and lean into the direction you wanna go and trust the wheel. if you are turning left for example, leankinda like diagonally forwards and left and dip the left side of your body, push down on left pedal and sort of tip toe on your right foot

[travsformation]

I was meaning to ask a similar question about the 18XL but can never seem to find the time. Thanks for starting this thread, @scotchtape !

I had no issues whatsoever turning at speed with the V8 (if that can actually be considered speed...), it came very naturally to me. But with the 18XL, it's a whole different story. Now that I've put 600 km on it, have grown used to it and am riding much faster, I've noticed that I still struggle with turning at speed.

What I'd do with the V8 (simply leaning into the curve), doesn't seem to apply with the 18XL (because it's more top heavy?): I can slalom aggressively, but find that I have trouble accelerating while doing so. So when turning at speed, I get the sense that the wheel is "fighting me" and trying to stay upright. I'll use a turn towards the right as an example of what I've found myself doing:

I lean into the curve to turn. I shift my weight to my right foot, which does the accelerating, and the wheel is kept upright (not entirely upright, but prevented from overleaning laterally) by the inside of my left leg, which bears the weight (similar to when mounting). I've grown quite comfortable and confident at turning using this method (discovering it on my own felt like an eureka moment), but find that the drastic weight shift isn't ideal when chaining turns in opposite directions...which prompted me to wonder whether there's a better way to do it.

Thanks in advance for any feedback you can provide!

 

[meepmeepmayer]

11 minutes ago, travsformation said:

doesn't seem to apply with the 18XL (because it's more top heavy?)

The motor+tire is both bigger and heavier, which gives it more angular momentum which keeps the wheel both upright and going straight (the same thing in the end). Also, maybe geometric reasons cause the fixed weight to behave differently? No idea what those would be.

You could try the Ninebot One Z/motorcycle method of literally bending the knee on the side you want to turn to. No other idea. @houseofjob can describe it (or link to a description).

-

@LanghamP has a really good point that you can't really ride smooth curves on a EUC. It's more like alternating between oversteering (or some other way of initiating the turn) and riding the curve arcs resulting from that. Interesting!

[scotchtape]

After more reading on the subject, I think this is what happens (for normal turns, not twisting the wheel when stopped):

 

- The wheel "turns" when leaned over.

- To initiate the turn, you can either lean the wheel over by shifting your weight on the pedals, or counter-steering (when you turn your body to look left, your feet exert a force turning the wheel right, which causes the wheel to tip left).  In the case of fast, heavy wheels, you actually lean over to one side instead of just shift weight on the pedals.

- Heavier wheels have a much stronger gyro force than light wheels, so at speed it is much harder to affect the wheel simply by shifting your weight from side to side (if not impossible). 

So with I5 vs MSX, I can shift and flick the wheel around easily when it is 15lbs, but when it is 50lbs, the wheel moves me instead of the other way around.  On the smaller wheel you can press down on one side and it will lean over, but on a bigger wheel, the wheel will not tilt, your body will move instead! 

- On a smaller wheel, if you push your right leg down while bending your left, the wheel will tilt over to the right.  On a bigger wheel, the wheel doesn't move, but because you're bending the left leg, you will lean over to the left, and the wheel tilts left.

Unlike a two wheeled bicycle or scooter, you don't have the same leverage as a handlebar, so you have less cornering control, since there is no second point of contact to push against.

 

So to maximize steering input on heavier wheels at speed, you would have to turn your upper body quickly (into the turn, f=ma) while also leaning over and shifting the COG as far as you can into the direction of the turn (tilting the wheel).  Of course also "looking" (upper body pointed) where you want to go.

 

Depending on your weight and the gyro forces, tilting the wheel is different. If I weighed 10,000lbs, tilting the I5 and MSX would probably be the same since my mass would overcome the gyro forces on both wheels by simply shifting my weight (I'm assuming). But if both wheels were going close to the speed of light, I would then have to do the leaning out method again (I know I know, at light speed you wouldn't even affect the wheel)

 

I've been leaning my body into turns and hanging my knee out motorcycle style (unnecessary but fun, haven't tried at super high speeds though) and it seems to be working well on the MSX. Now I know what to do any why (I think!).

Edited May 25, 2019 by scotchtape

[houseofjob]

@scotchtape How wide are your feet on the MSX? 

Whenever I hop on an MSX, for proper control at speed, and riding this wheel in general, my feet literally need to be sitting on top of the side edges of the pedals, not flats (when my body + wheel body are upright; each turn/tilt will bend my outer turn foot flush with that pedal's plane), due to the extreme pedal V, in order for me to have complete control.

And riding like this, I disagree, the MSX does not have anywhere near the Z's upright gyroscopic effect at speed: I can deep carve at high speeds on MSX, something I cannot do at high speeds on the Z (due to the Z's actual gyroscopic effect due to the 4" wide).

In general, full body, singular lean turns, where any significant motion is only happening below your knees (common for those who are only accustomed to thin tired EUC's) are not IMHO efficient, regardless of the wheel size/dimensions, because you are limited in turn angle range of motion. 

Instead, as we do in skiing, you need to learn how to use your hips+legs independently of your upper torso, in a manner where the more severe the legs are leaning to one side, the upper torso is compensating, positioning in the other direction in a manner where the net center of gravity is upright and as close to over the center of the wheel contacting the pavement.

Part of this is achieved by utilizing alternating heel-up, tip-toeing of the feet, as the more the wheel body leans into a turn, the more the pedals will naturally dip, thus requiring you to use extended tip-toing to stay upright, centered, and balanced over the wheel's center.

By doing all I mentioned above, I can just about pedal scrape any EUC at speed on the market, except the Z.

But it all starts at proper feet width/stance. IMHO you adjust your stance to you, less to the wheel. (ie. if the pedals are narrow, I'm spreading my feet wide as I need either way, even if they're half off the flats)

Edited May 25, 2019 by houseofjob

[scotchtape]

<30km/h I don't mind riding with feet a bit further apart (more comfortable because less pressure on the sides of my calves), but if I want to do >30km/h I put my feet closer to the sides so I can squeeze the sides.

If I try to go fast with my feet wide apart I find I get wobbles more easily, so I keep them close.

Feet wide apart scare me as I never feel like my feet are planted securely and I'm afraid of them slipping off.

Everyone really does ride differently.  I wish the same thing worked for everyone! Admittedly I haven't gone very fast in turns yet because I'm scared to.

Edited May 25, 2019 by scotchtape