Donafello Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Hello everyone. I have a quick question. And maybe this can only be answered by msuper owners but let me try. Just to give you a idea I feel I'm riding very good at this point. I can zip around town. I can go up small curbs. Ride from sidewalk to street back to sidewalk and can ride slowly through a small crowd. I feel I'm doing very good. What I notice is sometimes when riding at high speed I feel the cycle start to wobble slightly in between my calfs. Then if I slow up it starts to settle down. But then sometimes it does not do it. It seems that it's happening about 50 percent of the time. I just hope it's not the cycle and just me being to tense or something. But now that I'm getting better I'm beginning to think it might be the cycle. If I lay the cycle down on its side and try and wobble the wheel it feels pretty sturdy. Any body run into this before? Thanks. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 At the very beginning when practicing, I had the wobbles often. Nowadays I've had it with bad foot positioning at higher speeds (although very rarely), and also if I crouch down on the wheel (sometimes I've forgotten to turn on the riding lights when getting going, and just crouched to push the button while riding). I believe it has to do with the center of mass sideways and your feet being positioned unevenly on the pedals (if you'd draw a line between your toes, it wouldn't be orthogonal to the tire), and it occurs easier at faster speeds. It's just my theory, but I think that in such a situation, the tire isn't exactly straight in comparison to the direction you're heading due to center of mass/weight distribution being off, and oscillates around the "straight line" you're traveling, and becomes more noticeable/changes in frequency with speed. I could be wrong of course, haven't given it that much thought really. I think that once you get more experienced and your muscle control (balance) becomes better, you subconciusly/instinctive correct the minor wobbles and don't even notice them.This talks about motorcycles, but I think the effect is similar as the front fork in the animation, although the causes may not be exactly similar (http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/vibmode.htm): The wobble mode is essentially a steering oscillation of the front forks; this mode doesn't involve the rear frame in any significant way.Typical values of the frequencies vary from 4 Hz, in the case of heavy motorcycles, to 9 Hz, in the case of lightweight motorcycles. The frequency of the wobble mode goes up as the trail increases and as the front inertia decreases: this depends essentially on the sideslip stiffness of the front tire and is also influenced by the lateral flexibility of the front fork.When the speed of the motorcycle ranges from 10 to 20 m/s (40-80 km/h), the wobble is only a little damped and can therefore become unstable: the adoption of a damping steer increases the damping and consequently the degree of stability.EDIT: Example of a car tire doing the similar:Vibration of the spinning wheel shown at the right. Imbalances away from the wheel centerline can generate an axis of rotation (red) irrespective to the axle itself (blue). When the axis of rotation is close to a wheel's centerline (left) the wheel won't wobble. But moving the imbalances apart (right) moves the axis of rotation further away from the centerline and a wobble is likely to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 I have only had it happen once on the first long ride I did on my M18, it was just after I had remounted after crossing a side road. When I got it under control by gripping with my legs and slowing down a little I looked down to check my foot position. I came to the conclusion that I was a little further back on the pedals than normal and therefore to get enough forward pressure to get up to speed I was supporting myself more on my toes than normal. I assume this is what caused the instability and I always make sure I position myself well forward on the pedals now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 See with mine it gets pretty violent and has almost caused me to lose control. Even while slowing down while it's doing it it continues to do it. The illustration you sent (the one on the right) shows exactly what starts happening at high speed. I'm really perplexed because if it only happened once to gimlet and it's happening on a constant basis with me it's a little concerning. I know I've only been on this a week so I'll be continuing to monitor it but it's getting a little scary to ride at a high speed worrying if it's going to happen. Thanks everyone for your feed back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag_Rip Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Do you think its muscle induced? I had that in the beginning when my calves started to shake from the untrained muscletension, but I clearly felt it was me doing it and causing wobble, not the wheel.How relaxed do you ride? Can you make out a pattern for when it happens? What if you stop, dismount and walk two steps or three, then back on the wheel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 @Jag_RipI'm thinking it might be muscle induced. I do have very muscular calfs compared to the rest of my body. (I played a lot of football and sports when I was younger) So the part of my calf that's hitting the unit is the inside part and it's a slab of muscle there. Lol. it mainly happens when accelerating at a higher speed and also I noticed it a lot when going downhill. if I'm going slow it never happens. I would say it's when I'm at 12-15mph. Even a couple times while trying to brake at high speed it would start to happen. I'm hoping this is just me cause it is very scary when it happens. I was thinking maybe it's something with the wheel and I'm just catching it sometimes so I don't feel it but I'm not sure. I did notice that if I stop and get off and then back on it sometimes would help? I'm going to keep at it and see if it continues and maybe I'll make a video. Its really bothering with cause I'm really trying to believe it is me and I'm not 100% convinced of that. Then again I only been on it for a week. Is there anything else I can do to check and make sure the wheel is ok. Is getting to the nuts or blots that hold the wheel easy? Or do you think that it won't be a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 If you want my opinion @Donafello i dont think its the wheel. I think its just that you are new at this an uncertain and dont have full control of the wheel yet. Your muscles are too tight trying to keep the wheel in balance while they should be more relaxed to let the wheel find that balance. In my first several days the wheel wobbled at higher speeds also and then it went away all together. I believe there is nothing else to do with this but ride more. If it doesnt go away in a couple of weeks then maybe you would need to be worried. I could be wrong, but this is just my experience with the 14 incher. I realize that the question was for experienced riders and i am not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 If you want my opinion @Donafello i dont think its the wheel. I think its just that you are new at this an uncertain and dont have full control of the wheel yet. Your muscles are too tight trying to keep the wheel in balance while they should be more relaxed to let the wheel find that balance. In my first several days the wheel wobbled at higher speeds also and then it went away all together. I believe there is nothing else to do with this but ride more. If it doesnt go away in a couple of weeks then maybe you would need to be worried. I could be wrong, but this is just my experience with the 14 incher.ok cool. It's great to get all your feedback. Im going to monitor issue and see what happens. Is there anything else anyone recommends I can do or try with the wheel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilmann Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Hi @Donafello, from your description, there is a slim chance, that an unbalanced tire might play a role in that wobbling thing. If so, this video may help (pls activate subtitles for English comments): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 Yeah I just tested it and the tire is slightly warped in 2 different areas:( now it's very slight but I can make it out. Now the question is, is that's what's causing it or is it enough. It just stinks that this is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag_Rip Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Id say dont think too much about it right now, give it a few more days of riding. If it doesnt feel too dangerous that is. If you get more confidence in your muscles to rule them out, then check the wheel further.in this post is a picture about the riding stance (those are my skinny shinnys) and position on the pedals. Its not the same device but I figure the general position in relation to the center of the hub works on all wheels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted September 7, 2015 Author Share Posted September 7, 2015 I have my pressure at about 40-42 psi. Would maybe deflating it and increasing it to maybe 50-55psi. Do you think it would round out the tires? i don't want to blow the tire but I'm just throwing out suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 I did not get a chance to ride it last night but will get a chance tonight to see what happens. Tomorrow I'll take it into work and deflate it and then re inflate it to about 55psi and adjust down from there and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Ok so got home today and found the bead around the tire by the rim was not set right and was higher in a couple different areas. I deflated the tire and reset the tire the best I could. It's not perfect but close enough. I then inflated to about 44psi. The side of the tire says 35-45. I then did a check again and while the tire is still not 100% perfectly round I don't think I should have any problems. I took it for a brief ride and it felt good. the funniest thing about it is before I did this myself I took it to a bike shop and the guy looked at it and said its ok. I showed him where the higher spots were and he said that's normal. He then said I'll deflate and re inflate it and he made it worse. Lol. I should have just did it myself from the beginning. Anyway I'm curious if any other m super owners have a slightly off tire. The best way to tell is lay it on your side and put something round that can stand up next to the tire. And spin it and see if it's truly round. I think most people will see a slightky off tire but it's so small it won't make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag_Rip Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 IDK, despite other people saying the tires of EUCs are good enough, I will go for a known brand for my next tire as well as tube. I still cant shake the feeling these tires and tubes that come with the EUC are barely viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 I'm a service manager for a big honda dealer here in queens and from my experience with Chinese tires, they are all crap. sometimes if a customer doesn't want to spend for a oem tire we will get them a cheap Chinese tire and every time i had issues. I can guarantee that if everyone spun there tire they would see some slight imperfections in them. It just sucks because thats what we are riding on and you would think they would use a better tire. Especially for the price we are paying for these units, But I did get it where its a lot better but still not perfect. Anyway i think I will be doing the same and getting a name brand tire if at all possible the next tire. The fun part is going to be taking this beast apart to replace it. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Clegg Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 You might want to find someone else in you area with an msuper. That way you could confirm if its you or the wheel. Clearly its not normal and its not supposed to happen but its hard to tell without trying another (known good) wheel, or another (known good) rider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 I'm almost positive it is me. The tire issue while it was not set right, I still don't think that was my issue. I did get the tire even as I could. and the fact that the problem only happens a small percentage of the time tels me its not the tire. But I'll keep riding and see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiasDePlaya Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I'm motorcycle rider, and in my experience most of wobbling are rider induced, normally because nervous people, just relax your legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 I'm motorcycle rider, and in my experience most of wobbling are rider induced, normally because nervous people, just relax your legs.Thanks man. Yeah I feel that being I'm a new rider sometimes I'm probably way to tense. I'm sure over time I will get better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 So I've been riding on my Lhotz how it came out of the box for the past week. Today I checked the tire pressure and it was in the range of 20psi, which explained why it felt really squishy. I then pumped it up to just under 40psi and took it for a ride. I noticed 2 things immediately:1) Much easier to turn sharply2) EXTREMELY 'twitchy' - any slight variation in the road, foot position, body weight shifting, ANYTHING would cause the wheel to twitch and wobble.When I got back, I let some of the air out (pressed the valve down for about 4 seconds) and tried again. It felt much more stable, and basically kept the same turning radius.So based on this, maybe try deflating the tire a bunch? 30-35 psi (I'm just guessing where mine is at now as I didn't measure after letting air out) seemed pretty good for me, I'm 75kg so adjust PSI accordingly but 45-55psi sounds pretty high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jag_Rip Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I guess there is no absolute "right" on tire pressure, its all how the rider feels. The general consensus in here is although that the better you get at riding the harder you will want your tire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I like riding with high pressure, so I usually fill the tire up to some way above 4 bars (4.25-4.4bar, about 61.5-64psi), but as some of the air always gets out disconnecting the compressor nozzle, the final pressure is probably around 3.5-4 bars (51-58psi).Probably the "correct" pressure varies between wheels and people, and rider weight. My pressures might be too much for heavier riders, and while they make it really smooth on pavement, the tire doesn't absorb much of the shocks. Haven't actually checked the tire pressure since the rebuild, and it's probably lower than usual now (but that's probably good since I've mostly rode offroad now any way) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBump Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Found this interesting: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_wobble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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