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Mod the baterry pack of ks-14b


Pedro
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Hi all

 

There are some places still selling the batery pack for the kingsong KS-14b. This is an 16 cell pack (16 in serie) with 174wh that maybe can be used in other euc, so for 100€ doesn't look a bad value for the money if my assumption are correct. 

 

Can anyone tell me if this baterry pack as bms included? 

And what it is connected to the metal contacts? 

Thanks 

KS14B-Battery-Red-front.jpg

KS14B-Battery-Black-Rear (1).jpg

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  • 4 weeks later...
4 minutes ago, Pedro said:

Anyone knows what is the name of the connector in the image?  is the same connector used on KS-14d

Monokoleso-Kingsong-KS-14M-13.JPG

MT-60 (or MT60, depending how people write it)

Edited by esaj
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A 170wh build by 1RadWerkstatt is 130 Euros + 10 Euros shipping
total: 140

A 174wh from kingsong for ks14b is 96 Euros + 18 Euros shipping
    also the xt60 connector is 3 Euros + 2 shipping
total: 119

There is not that much difference in terms of pricing, by modding the ks-14b battery. Not sure if I am forgetting something to the added costs...

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Update:
In one website I found that they are selling new 174wh battery pack for KS-14B for only 67 Euros with shipping. Maybe the packs have been seating on the store for a couple of years and they want to get rid of it.

So I in the near future I will modify this pack for my KS-14M, and keep this thread update.

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On the wheel the connector to the wheel has only 3 cables. I am assuming they are, common ground, positive charger and positive "load", need to be confirmed.

On the battery side from the battery pack of KS-14B we have 4 cables, 2 for charging and other 2 for the "load". I have to found out if both ground cables can be join together, these means if these  2 cables are coming from the same point in the BMS. 

I will need a multimeter for this, but there is anyone that have a schematic or knows something about this?

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On 7/11/2018 at 4:48 PM, Pedro said:

On the wheel the connector to the wheel has only 3 cables. I am assuming they are, common ground, positive charger and positive "load", need to be confirmed.

On the battery side from the battery pack of KS-14B we have 4 cables, 2 for charging and other 2 for the "load". I have to found out if both ground cables can be join together, these means if these  2 cables are coming from the same point in the BMS. 

I will need a multimeter for this, but there is anyone that have a schematic or knows something about this?

Do you mean three cables to the actual wheel motor? If so you haven’t understood these motors they have three cables because they are 3-phase motors like below:

IMG_0021.thumb.PNG.07e23ba7819d724dc6aced086b08bbe1.PNG

As for the cables from the BMS. Typically (but I’m not sure it is a hard and fast rule), it is the positive that is common and the negative that goes through the protection circuits. If you short these input and output cables together you will risk bypassing  any protection devices on the BMS, the ones on the charge side are important as charging faults, too high a charge voltage , shorts or reversals are what is most likely to result in a fire.

I also cannot see why you would want to do this - all packs have a clearly defined charge side and power side connection? The charge side connection doesn’t normally go anywhere near the wheel’s electronics (if that is what you really meant in your first sentence above) it is usually simply BMS to charge port, unless the charge port itself is physically connected via the main control board - I’ve not yet seen a wheel that does that, but it is possible I guess - for example, if the designer wanted to ensure that the wheel could not be turned on during charging or wanted to display the charging state on its LED’s - so has the main board monitoring the charging input?

 

Edited by Keith
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52 minutes ago, Keith said:

Do you mean three cables to the actual wheel motor? If so you haven’t understood these motors they have three cables because they are 3-phase motors like below:

Three cables connect to the battery. See on my second post.

 

54 minutes ago, Keith said:

As for the cables from the BMS. Typically (but I’m not sure it is a hard and fast rule), it is the positive that is common and the negative that goes through the protection circuits. If you short these input and output cables together you will risk bypassing  any protection devices on the BMS, the ones on the charge side are important as charging faults, too high a charge voltage , shorts or reversals are what is most likely to result in a fire.

I also cannot see why you would want to do this - all packs have a clearly defined charge side and power side connection? The charge side connection doesn’t normally go anywhere near the wheel’s electronics (if that is what you really meant in your first sentence above) it is usually simply BMS to charge port, unless the charge port itself is physically connected via the main control board - I’ve not yet seen a wheel that does that, but it is possible I guess - for example, if the designer wanted to ensure that the wheel could not be turned on during charging or wanted to display the charging state on its LED’s - so has the main board monitoring the charging input?

 

Once I open the wheel I will be sure, but looks like most times the BMS are common positive , something like the image attached.

So in the battery pack of KS-14b has the charge leads (C+ and C-) and the discharge leads(L+ and L-). IF my KS-14M in its first battery uses a bms with common positive, and the pack I am trying to mod is also common positive, I can:
    join together C+ and L+, this will be the red cable;
    and L- will be the discharge cable that connect to the board, black cable;
    and C- the charge negative that goes to the negative of the charger, purple colour. (the colours can be seen on  the second picture)

 So I agree with you,  if the configuration on the wheel is common positive. Probably to discovery if this is the current configuration I will use a multimeter for it, disconnecting  the first battery and see if the red cable that goes to the battery is directly connected to the positive of the charger. On the wheel I don't have any marks of what colour means.

 

Thanks, I was just brainstorming and is always good to talk about it with some one

 

36v-lithium-ion-battery-protection-circuit-10s-36v-37v-15a-bms-on-off-switch-wires-and-small-size-l65-w40mm.jpg

Monokoleso-Kingsong-KS-14M-7.JPG

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On 7/11/2018 at 10:48 AM, Pedro said:

On the wheel the connector to the wheel has only 3 cables. I am assuming they are, common ground, positive charger and positive "load", need to be confirmed.

On the battery side from the battery pack of KS-14B we have 4 cables, 2 for charging and other 2 for the "load". I have to found out if both ground cables can be join together, these means if these  2 cables are coming from the same point in the BMS. 

I will need a multimeter for this, but there is anyone that have a schematic or knows something about this?

You have a KS14M?  That is the same as a KS14B with one battery only, right?  I read that the single battery version is popular in Russia as a lower cost wheel.  Maybe try contacting the Russian dealer for information.  They might have a schematic showing how to add the second battery.

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On 7/13/2018 at 10:08 PM, steve454 said:

You have a KS14M?  That is the same as a KS14B with one battery only, right?  I read that the single battery version is popular in Russia as a lower cost wheel.  Maybe try contacting the Russian dealer for information.  They might have a schematic showing how to add the second battery.

It is the same model as KS-14D, but with just one battery pack and without the led and speakers. I am following the site ecodrift.ru for some information but I doubt they will help, I will try anyway

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Today I have open the batery pack and one of my assumptions was right, although never used it is a old pack from December of 2015. 

I like the fact that there is a fuse on the positive discharge cable but I will probably remove when I transfer the pack to my wheel. The cables used are only 16AWG, I was expecting something more like 12AWG, I don't know if I should change but I would prefer to not remove the heat shrink of the battery pack 

ks14b_174wh736_1920x1080.jpg

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43 minutes ago, Pedro said:

I like the fact that there is a fuse on the positive discharge cable but I will probably remove when I transfer the pack to my wheel. The cables used are only 16AWG, I was expecting something more like 12AWG, I don't know if I should change but I would prefer to not remove the heat shrink of the battery pack 

At least in older wheels, 16AWG was pretty common. The high current spikes aren't occurring all the time, and so far, no-one has reported the wires themselves melting, usually if something melts, it's the connectors, or mosfets dying on high current spike / transient voltage spike or whatever. Compared to other parts (connectors, mosfets, the cells themselves), the resistance of the wire is hardly an issue at that size. If you take a look at the motor phase-wires on the motor-side, you might be shocked (depending on the wheel, but some of those are really thin to get them through the axle, compared to the battery wiring).

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Definition: ampacity is the current carrying capability of a wire. In other words, how many amps can it transmit? The following chart is a guideline of ampacity or copper wire current carrying capacity following the Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas for American Wire Gauge. As you might guess, the rated ampacities are just a rule of thumb. In careful engineering the voltage drop, insulation temperature limit, thickness, thermal conductivity, and air convection and temperature should all be taken into account. The Maximum Amps for Power Transmission uses the 700 circular mils per amp rule, which is very very conservative. The Maximum Amps for Chassis Wiring is also a conservative rating, but is meant for wiring in air, and not in a bundle. For short lengths of wire, such as is used in battery packs you should trade off the resistance and load with size, weight, and flexibility. NOTE: For installations that need to conform to the National Electrical Code, you must use their guidelines. Contact your local electrician to find out what is legal! 

16 AWG is listed as 22A for chassis wiring (and that's for conservative & for continuous current).

Edited by esaj
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10 hours ago, esaj said:

16 AWG is listed as 22A for chassis wiring (and that's for conservative & for continuous current).

This is not considered chassis wiring as it is not on free air, but I understand your point.

I don't know how much is the power drain from the motor, I am considering that can be 20A for a very few seconds, and 5A for normal load. Maybe I am going overboard with the thicknesses of the cables, but I don't like to mess with li-on batteries.

 

As the battery as been sitting in a shelf for 2years and half, I would like to do a complete charge and discharge to measure the capacity of the battery, but I don't have a load capable of 100W, just 5W ?

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  • 5 months later...

Hi @Snoopy63

I have the battery and all the tool to do it, but I have not done it yet. I am sure will fit, the reasons I have not done yet are lack of time, and that some people on the Russian forum have told me that I need to connect the gates of the mofest (transistor)  of both batteries, so that if one battery is in overcharge both can shutdown at the same time.

 

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  • 1 month later...

Hello guys,

I’m very interested in your progress over here, as I might buy a 14M for my growing children :) 

As 174 Wh might be sufficient in a first time, I’m very interested in an upgrade to around 350 Wh. It’s the interesting thing in the 14M, it’s potential for future evolution...

This post is basically a big cheer up!

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  • 1 month later...

This was almost a year ago, and at this pace I believe it will never be done, not enough time to dedicate to it.
There are other people that have added another battery to this euc, and probably the easiest way is just to be the other battery pack from an official source.

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From this site, it  says "When connecting the second battery, do not forget to connect both assemblies via a red solid wire to synchronize the BMS operation:"

When I open the battery ks-14b I didn't find the extra wire that is used to synchronize both BMS.  I don't know if there is anyone here that can give me a help about this.

 

 

c0d0a769ce4bc9a1fa40137850041719.jpeg

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  • 1 month later...

Today I open my KS14b battery pack and to mine disappointment the BMS has a common ground for the charge and discharge port. With the multimeter I did the continuity test, and the GND cables appear to be connected internally with no electronic in the middle. On the other hand the positive cables are isolated. 

 

It looks that this mod is not possible, without changing the whole BMS. I will not do that. 

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23 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Perhaps I was not able to follow, but why is the common ground a bad thing?

As someone suggested in this thread, the BMS are normally common positive, the same positive cable is use to charge and discharge, but diferente ground cables for the charge and discharge. 

I have not verified if that is the case with my KS 

Edit: the BMS connecter on the KS only has 3 cables (+ a very thin one for BMS synchronisation), so it means one the positive or negative is common. 

Edited by Pedro
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  • 2 years later...

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